Air compressor aeration

[stevescott123]

Due to the responses I've had I decided not to pursue with the compressor. As I head toward higher OG brews I need more oxygen, not more air which has only a litle oxygen. So now I'm looking at the likes of the Oxynator and the Bernzomatic O2 tanks from Home Depot. However, we go to great lengths to keep our brews bacteria free and I'm not sure about these canisters.

I've also seen empty 20 cf tanks from Harbor Freight, cheaper on eBay even wih shipping, that cost about the same as nine Bernz cans. I'm a bit confused as to the compatibility of tank valves and the Oxynator or other regulators, where to get the tank filled, what that will cost and whether the O2 quality will be any more assured than that of the Bernz or if it's worth going to all this trouble and expense. I think a 20 cf tank might last longer than me!
To date all I've done is shake my bucket. If I were dissatisfied with my brews I might have given up but I'm not so it must be working. In fact last time I forgpt to aerate until after I pitched. That one is still in 2nd stage so don't know how it's going to turn out. Weds I brew again, a 1050 from NB and I won't have the O2 set up but I might use a perforated spoon to whip some air in. Easier on the body!

 

[Golddiggie]

Here's one O2 regulator that will work with a welding O2 tank. Very similar to one of the ones I have. I simply connect that to the O2 wand I got from William's with some 3/16" ID Bevlex tubing, with a clamp on the fitting to the regulator. Probably don't need the clamp with the low flow that's going through it, but I'd rather be 100% safe than have it come off.

As for getting the O2 tank filled, AirGas will do it for pretty short money. I'm actually planning on exchanging one of my 20 cubic foot tanks (once it's empty) for a 60 to use with welding again. Total cost of the exchange, and fill, is under $60 ($30 for the exchange). I would expect the O2 fill/exchange of a 20 cubic to be under $20.

Also, the red bottles of O2 are typically 1.2-1.4 ounces of O2. The 20 cubic foot has more than 10x that inside it. Size wise, they're about the same as a 5# CO2 tank. I'll look to see what the weight of the tank is (tare weight) and see how much O2 (by weight) is inside a full one. I'll post up later when I have that info.

 

[eastoak]

we go to great lengths to keep our brews bacteria free and I'm not sure about these canisters.

i doubt any bacteria can live in a 100% O2 environment.

 

[stevescott123]

So I've done more research on O2 tanks and I'm starting to get my head around the differnet valve types and the numbers etc. I also went to look at one in Harbor Freight. What I don't understand is why, if the tanks has a valve on it, I would need an additional regulator, which is essentially another valve. I don't believe I really need to measure the flow with guages; I'm just going to squirt oxygen for 30-60 seconds keeping my eye on the brew and the foam.

Why do I need a regulator like the one Golddiggie referenced or any other? Can I simply connect my tubing and stone via some kind of adaptor to the threaded valve on the tank?

One other question...what am I looking at on the opposite side of the valve, is that some kind of vent?

 

[Golddiggie]

So I've done more research on O2 tanks and I'm starting to get my head around the differnet valve types and the numbers etc. I also went to look at one in Harbor Freight. What I don't understand is why, if the tanks has a valve on it, I would need an additional regulator, which is essentially another valve. I don't believe I really need to measure the flow with guages; I'm just going to squirt oxygen for 30-60 seconds keeping my eye on the brew and the foam.

Why do I need a regulator like the one Golddiggie referenced or any other? Can I simply connect my tubing and stone via some kind of adaptor to the threaded valve on the tank?

One other question...what am I looking at on the opposite side of the valve, is that some kind of vent?

Without a regulator on the tank, the O2 will be coming out at full force. About 3000psi. Similar to how you have a regulator on CO2 tanks to control the flow of the gas out of them, you NEED a regulator on the O2 tank. Using a regulator with a flow meter is the best choice for O2 for this task. One with a pressure gauge is good for welding, but not brewing applications (I've tried it, so I know from experience).

The 'vent' you see is a safety release. IF the pressure gets too high in the tank (typically from being stored too hot) it will break and release the gas before the tank blows up.

 

[bottlebomber]

3000 psi? That would blow your fingers off your hand and send them through the sheet rock.

 

[Golddiggie]

3000 psi? That would blow your fingers off your hand and send them through the sheet rock.

Pretty much since they'll also be frozen solid.

 

[AndrewD]

The disposable tanks from the hardware store coupled with a diffusion stone are easy to use. I figure I get roughly 5 batches out of a 10$ tank. In the long run, a refillable setup would be better, but that is low on my list. And in my area, I've found Airgas to be significantly more expensive for CO2 refills than Matheson, which might be just a regional chain.

 

[Golddiggie]

Once you have the tank, the O2 swap is pretty reasonable. Especially when you compare how much more O2 you get. Swapping my 20 cubic foot tank (about the same size as a 5# CO2 tank) is <$20. So, for no more than what you're paying for those 1.2-1.4 OUNCE bottles, I get many times the O2 amount. Judging by what I found from a google search, and weighing the full 20 cubic foot O2 tank, you get about just over 4 pounds of O2 in the 20 cubic foot tank. So, over 50 times the amount of O2 is in one of these small O2 tanks (compared with the typical 1.2oz O2 bottle). If you're getting the 'larger' bottle (1.4oz) it's over 46x the O2. You'll be paying far, far, far, far less (in the longer run) by going with even a 20 cubic foot O2 tanks (the smallest you can get for welding). Yes, it costs a little more than the red tanks to get setup this way (should be able to get everything, tank, regulator, etc. for under $150), but you'll save over time (compared with spending $460-$500 while using the red tanks).

 

[eastoak]

Once you have the tank, the O2 swap is pretty reasonable. Especially when you compare how much more O2 you get. Swapping my 20 cubic foot tank (about the same size as a 5# CO2 tank) is <$20. So, for no more than what you're paying for those 1.2-1.4 OUNCE bottles, I get many times the O2 amount. Judging by what I found from a google search, and weighing the full 20 cubic foot O2 tank, you get about just over 4 pounds of O2 in the 20 cubic foot tank. So, over 50 times the amount of O2 is in one of these small O2 tanks (compared with the typical 1.2oz O2 bottle). If you're getting the 'larger' bottle (1.4oz) it's over 46x the O2. You'll be paying far, far, far, far less (in the longer run) by going with even a 20 cubic foot O2 tanks (the smallest you can get for welding). Yes, it costs a little more than the red tanks to get setup this way (should be able to get everything, tank, regulator, etc. for under $150), but you'll save over time (compared with spending $460-$500 while using the red tanks).

this concept seems very hard for some people to understand but you said it well in this post.

 

[stevescott123]

So even if I creep open the valve on the tank I cannot avoid unwelcome and excessive pressure?

I agree it's a better deal in the long run and I'm about to go to Air Gas, see what they have to say, but I've already seen $80 empty but shipped tanks on eBay and the regulator on Amazon you informed me about.

From my own research I would have to agree (again!) that this can easily be achieved for under $150.

 

[Golddiggie]

So even if I creep open the valve on the tank I cannot avoid unwelcome and excessive pressure?

It's not as progressive as you might think on these. You crack it open and it's pretty much full blast. IMO, really not worth the risks to save a few dollars. Besides, how are you going to go from the tank fitting to the stone?

I agree it's a better deal in the long run and I'm about to go to Air Gas, see what they have to say, but I've already seen $80 empty but shipped tanks on eBay and the regulator on Amazon you informed me about.

From my own research I would have to agree (again!) that this can easily be achieved for under $150.

Just make sure those empty tanks have a decent hydro date stamp on them. Close to expiring is one thing. Even a year out isn't that bad. But don't get any that are any older than that or you'll not get much (most likely) towards the exchange.

IMO, another 'benefit' of having the regular O2 tank and flowmeter regulator is you don't need to worry about having enough O2 for something. If you want to make several batches one week, or make something stronger than beer (mead, cider, wine, etc.) you'll have enough O2 on hand to get the job done without issue. I have to wonder how well one of those red bottles would hold up to making 2-4 batches of 14-18% mead in one weekend.

 

[stevescott123]

Couple of these reponses came in while I was at Airgas. I did indeed purchase a 20cf tank, filled with O2. The tank was $79.19, the fill $20.28. With the "fees" and my local taxes the total was $113.53.

The Harbor Freight tanks are just under $100. Sure, they're glossy and new and all that but only until you get it to the likes of Airgas who will exchange it for one they have. They don't fill tanks that customers bring in. I was aware of this beforehand, just wanted to reiterate it. Since I was there with my car (I usually ride to work) and Airgas Guy had been most helpful I decided not to waste time going home and trying to beat the deal online...only to wait for it to be shippd to me and then have to drive back to Airgas for the fill AND swap to a different tank. So I handed over my credit card.

There's a whole string of numbers stamped around the cylinder but none appears to represent a hydro date; it's probably in code.

One thing that came up in conversation was the cleanliness of the oxygen. No crticism intended of Airgas Guy but any use outside of industrial (ie: culinary) was beyond his scope. Obviously, since the cylinders are constantly being exchanged the history is not known and any reisdual matter inside the tank is not known. Apparently there is a medical oxygen supplier near Airgas that cleans it's tanks but they're more expensive. I decided not to go there on the grounds that Golddiggie uses an industrial tank and Eastok said that bacteria cannot survive in an O2 environment. Is there anything else that can put my mind at rest on this subject? For $5 the in line HEPA filter from Northern Brewer seems like it might be good insurance (?)

So on to the regulator. I passed up on the Airgas regs that I think started at $150. I'm interested in the one on Amazon but the picture is not so clear. It's a 540 fitting so that's good. I suppose I just have the reg closed, open the tank valve and then open the reg to the desired flow rate - but I don't know what that should be. Can that little medical reg cope with the pressure of the tank? Does the reg also have the ability to tell me how much O2 remains in the tank? Or is that what 2 stages do? I think, at a batch very 2 months, the tank might outlive me but I'd hate to be completing some high OG and expensive brew somewhere down the line and not have the 02 to inject because I didn't see it coming (or going!)

But I was (you were) right about the cost of tank, gas and reg being under $150. Of course that doesn't include the stone, tubing/wand, possible HEPA filter etc. Details, details.

But that's initial cost - like when you buy your first set of brewing equipment and hardware and you then use it for dozens of batches. Next time, it'll just be around $20 for the fill. If I ever need it!

 

[eastoak]

your concerns about the cleanliness of the O2 is unfounded, steve. a HEPA could ease your concerns but then you have to worry about when to change it...more worries. in the 2 yrs i've been brewing i have never had any kind of infection in a fermentor and i hit the wort with pure O2 from a stainless wand that hangs in my garage, i never boil it just spray it with star san turn it on for a second and into the wort it goes. i know many other brewers here have the same experience using O2, it's safe.

 

[stevescott123]

Most of my concerns are unfounded. I'm a born worrier.

Thanks!

I think I read somewhere about 12 batches per filter, I'd have to check.

Any thoughts on the regulator and monitoring the tank contents?

BTW what size diffusion stone are you using?

 

[Golddiggie]

stevescott123, if you already have some 3/16" ID [Bevlex] tubing (as most people who keg will have) then all you need is the air stone on the wand (now)... $34.90 for that. Just need a way to connect it to the O2 regulator. Get one [of the regulators] with threaded fittings and you can break it down easy, get it with the barb and you'll just leave it connected. The threaded fittings (brass) I use were not even $1 each from the welding gas supplier.

So, with buying everything new, you could be closer to $200. Still a far cry cheaper than using the small O2 bottles. You're at under half the cost of just the bottles alone. Of course, I was [originally] talking about just the O2 source, not the stone/wand too.

 

[eastoak]

i use a wand like the one linked to above except i think i bought mine at morebeer. i've had my tank for about 1- 1/2 yrs and brew almost every weekend, i have no clue how much is in there. i basically count to 60 then stop some people say they don't notice the difference but i did notice faster fermentations and cleaner tasting beer. when i use dry yeast i don't aerate but i do when i reuse the yeast slurry from a dry pitch.

 

[stevescott123]

I think I'm going to order the "Drive" regulator on Amazon referenced above. Presumably all regulators are designed to work with the high incoming pressure; that's what regulators do (!) and there's no difference betwen "industrial" and "medical" regulators in regard to their ability to do so.

I've seen the wand on Williams but I've not ordered from them before. I have a big wish list at Northern Brewer but thay don't do the wand/diffusion combo. So it's going to be $40 from Williams with the shipping. I think that's over priced for what it is.

I'm planning on getting a stone and matching up some flexible tubing between it and the regulator but also using a section of rigid food grade tubing to better control the stone and keep it low in the bucket. Either I'll sleeve the rigid in so that it's carrying the O2 or I'll just pass it over the flexible tube like a jacket so it's not actually carrying the 02, it's just a handle. I'll go to my local store to see what I can figure out with tubing and stones. But I think I can do it less expensively than the Williams version.

Williams says their wand comes with a 2 micron stone. Northern Brewer sells the 2 and the 0.5 micron with acompanying information that suggests the 2 is suited to the aquarium pump style aeration system and the 0.5 for the oxygenation system. Perhaps the tiny aquarium pumps don't have the pressure to push out of the smaller diffusion holes?

So it looks like I'll get the 0.5 stone unless somebody advises me not to. I read some bad customer reviews on NB that some stones had clogged very quickly. Nobody seems to know how to unclog a stone.

Why does eastok not aerate wiyth a dry yeast? I probably will only use liquid Wyeast from now on but isn't aeration/oxygenation beneficial to all beers, not just the higher OG? I'm hoping to have this 02 sytem up and running in time for my next brew. I'm plannning a NB Caribou Slobber which isn't paricularly high OG but if I have an 02 system I've invested time and money in then I'm not going to shake the bucket before pitching!

 

[Golddiggie]

stevescott123, with your planned double tube segment, you're going to have more things to sanitize before, and clean after, each use. IMO, that's more trouble and tempting fate (infections). I would just get the William's wand. Or make your own version with all stainless fittings/tubing.

I'm thinking about making my own wand with a .5 micron stone. Not as bad, for me, since I have a welding setup here (again) so I can silver solder a length of stainless tubing to a fitting to connect to the stone (I have a few on hand, of course).

I've not had any clogging issues with the 2 micron stone, on the stainless wand, from William's...

 

[eastoak]

No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either. During its aerobic production, dry yeast accumulates sufficient amounts of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols to produce enough biomass in the first stage of fermentation. The only reason to aerate the wort when using wet yeast is to provide the yeast with oxygen so that it can produce sterols and unsaturated fatty acids which are important parts of the cell membrane and therefore essential for biomass production.

this is from Danstar's website and it explains why dry yeast do not need O2, but it does not hurt either so i just skip it when using dry yeast.

 

[helibrewer]

I use a .5 micron stone connected to the regulator (barb) with 1/8" silicone tubing. I use a medical regulator on a "D" bottle and use 1 Liter flow for about 1 min for 5 gallons.

 

[stevescott123]

Thanks for those numbers. After reading some reviews on the stones it seems the 2 micron may be less prone to clogging. I doubt he hole size increase would be detrimental to the beer.

I'm surprised the reg barb is 1/8 but I'll easily figure out the hoses I need once the regulator arrrives.

 

[stevescott123]

stevescott123, with your planned double tube segment, you're going to have more things to sanitize before, and clean after, each use. IMO, that's more trouble and tempting fate (infections). I would just get the William's wand. Or make your own version with all stainless fittings/tubing.

Thanks for raising that but I'm not really concerned as I'll be soaking it in sanitiser as I would*anything*that touches the beer. And I'll keep it wrapped when not in use. If bacteria can get in to the tubing so can sanitizer.

But I'll take a look at my local store, see what they have.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm looking into silver soldering a section of 304 stainless tubing to a swivel nut, to connect to other air stones. :rockin: Might put the swivel nuts on both ends, to have a more secure connection to the gas line too...

 

[stevescott123]

Sounds impressive. But it's like most things; you can take them as far as you want - budget, time, resources permitting!

That said a brazing torch is on my shopping list...

 

[Golddiggie]

Sounds impressive. But it's like most things; you can take them as far as you want - budget, time, resources permitting!

That said a brazing torch is on my shopping list...

Go with at least an oxy acetylene torch. Get it sized right too. I'm going to swap out the 20 cubic foot O2 tank (one of two I had traded my 40 cubic for) and get a 60 cubic foot for welding operations. When my acetylene tank is empty, I might go for the next size up on that too. Means I'll be able to do more without going to swap tanks as often.

About to place the order for the stainless tubing. Getting two pieces that are slightly different OD/ID to work with. I've measured the swivel nut barbs I have, to confirm they'll work with these. Then it's just a matter of doing a little silver soldering to connect them up. I won't braze since it's not as good for this application.

BTW, silver solder rod is NOT cheap these days. Prices range fro about $130 to $200 per POUND of the stuff. very glad I had some I bought years back (over a decade ago).

 

[stevescott123]

Err yeah....I'm just going to modify my wort chiller a little and install a garage sink. All copper. $20 Bernzomatic kit from Home Depot will be just great!

 

[Golddiggie]

Err yeah....I'm just going to modify my wort chiller a little and install a garage sink. All copper. $20 Bernzomatic kit from Home Depot will be just great!

Meh... I think we had a kit like that when I was just a kid. Used it a few times and my father decided it was seriously over-rated and under-powered. So we went to the oxy acetylene system and have been running that way ever since. I suppose it will be fine if you just want to solder water pipes with it. You won't be able to do much else with it though (IME/IMO).

IMO, even a small oxy acetylene system will be a vast improvement. Get the good regulators that use standard connections and you can always increase your tank sizes later.

I used mine for the first time in years to make some metal stakes to secure a tarp over the basement bulkhead. Made short work of heating up 3/8" steel rod. Made a loop on one end (had already cut the other end to a chisel point) just by heating and bending with a pair of vice grips.

BTW, I have another welding tip that's smaller, which I'll be using for the silver soldering of small items... The cutting attachment/end is also nice to use for most any steel (other than stainless).

 

[stevescott123]

I'm beginning to think this O2 tank from AirGas was a bad idea. I got my Drive oxygen regulator shipped to me but it has no connector on the outlet. I've discovered it's a DISS fitting designed to stop morons feeding oxygen patients the wrong gas. That's all well and good but you'd think ONE of the dozens of medical supply stores in this town would have it. Best I've found so far is an online veterinary supplier but they want $15 - half the price of the regulator! Removing the DISS outlet completely didn't help; can't find anything to match that hole either.
So far I've spent $160+ and if I've done my math right the AirGas cylinder, at one brew every 2 months, is going to last me 93 years. If I'd gone the Bernzomatic 02 and NB regulator/oxygenator route I'd be up and running now and I'm sure those red cannisters last long enough.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm beginning to think this O2 tank from AirGas was a bad idea. I got my Drive oxygen regulator shipped to me but it has no connector on the outlet. I've discovered it's a DISS fitting designed to stop morons feeding oxygen patients the wrong gas. That's all well and good but you'd think ONE of the dozens of medical supply stores in this town would have it. Best I've found so far is an online veterinary supplier but they want $15 - half the price of the regulator! Removing the DISS outlet completely didn't help; can't find anything to match that hole either.
So far I've spent $160+ and if I've done my math right the AirGas cylinder, at one brew every 2 months, is going to last me 93 years. If I'd gone the Bernzomatic 02 and NB regulator/oxygenator route I'd be up and running now and I'm sure those red cannisters last long enough.

Shoot me a picture of the regulator... I was able to get a threaded fitting (to barb for the hose) from a welding supply store without issue. I don't think it's a 1/4" MFL thread, I think it's different. I know they had the plastic ones on Amazon, for not a cheap price. After cracking the first one (when clamping the hose on it) I decided that metal was the way to go. Cost me maybe $1 each at the welding supply store...