Aging time in a keg

[MAC80]

I have just finished my 4th brew. I have learned a lot so far but still very new to brewing and learning something new every time. I have made some mistakes. All my beers have a flavor to them. After some research I think it is because I don't let the brew age before drinking. I have only left it in the keg for about 3 days to carbonate. Would others agree?

If so how long do you let it sit in the keg before drinking and at what temp? Do you cold crash and then age at room temperature?

Thanks for any advice
Cheers

 

[JohnSand]

Hi Mac. Many things can produce off flavors. What is the flavor that you notice? What style beers have you made and by what method? Where does your brewing water come from, and how do you treat it? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but all of this will help pin down your problem.
I generally ferment for three weeks to let the beer finish and clear. I then keg and force carb, at room temperature if my kegerator is full, or in the kegerator if there is space. I do not cold crash, the beer finishes clearing when the keg is chilled. On rare occasions, I have found that the beer is not ready. Sometimes I take it back out to condition, other times I let it cold condition.
Study and practice will produce great beer. I'm sure you can solve your problem.

 

[MAC80]

Hi Mac. Many things can produce off flavors. What is the flavor that you notice? What style beers have you made and by what method? Where does your brewing water come from, and how do you treat it? Sorry to bombard you with questions, but all of this will help pin down your problem.
I generally ferment for three weeks to let the beer finish and clear. I then keg and force carb, at room temperature if my kegerator is full, or in the kegerator if there is space. I do not cold crash, the beer finishes clearing when the keg is chilled. On rare occasions, I have found that the beer is not ready. Sometimes I take it back out to condition, other times I let it cold condition.
Study and practice will produce great beer. I'm sure you can solve your problem.

The style is a NEIPA. Not really sure how to describe the flavor. Maybe like a sweet grain kind of flavor and smell. Not sure if that is a good description though. I made a sesson IPA as well and it had the same type of flavor.

I was using extract and have used both liquid and dry malt but I have made a mash tun and did all grain in the last batch. I have used different yeast and all with the same result. I clean and sanitize well.

The equipment is a 8.5 gallon kettle, 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler with a false bottom and a fermentasaurus in a refrigerator. The refrigerator has and inkbird controller and a fermwrap inside for temp control.

I ferment in a closed environment(no air lock) using a spunding valve for 2 weeks. Transfer to a keg, carb(3 days) and serve. Seems most people are leaving in a keg for weeks. Could it just be that the beer is still young?

I think I answered all the questions but might have missed a couple. Also yeast I want to keep using is WLP095 Burlington ale

 

[JohnSand]

Good information. Young or "green" beer often has a green apple taste. I usually drink my beer after a week in the keg, I have done less. Sweetness may be from low attenuation, high percentage of crystal malts, especially medium crystal, or low hopping efficiency. It also strikes me that sometimes we're too hard on our own brews. Have you shared this with others? I find homebrew meetings a great source of helpful feedback.

 

[Beer-lord]

Many people who use extract talk about an 'extract twang' and that may be what you're experiencing. Sometimes just a bit of grain steeping and a partial mash can make a world of difference.
But, as John asks, it could be many things and water and fermentation temperature play a huge roll in brewing.

 

[MAC80]

Many people who use extract talk about an 'extract twang' and that may be what you're experiencing. Sometimes just a bit of grain steeping and a partial mash can make a world of difference.
But, as John asks, it could be many things and water and fermentation temperature play a huge roll in brewing.

Thats is a couple of the things I forgot to add. I use bottled spring water and ferment at 70°. I would call this a "twang" but the last batch I made was all grain no extract used because I thought it could be coming from the extract as well.

 

[MAC80]

Good information. Young or "green" beer often has a green apple taste. I usually drink my beer after a week in the keg, I have done less. Sweetness may be from low attenuation, high percentage of crystal malts, especially medium crystal, or low hopping efficiency. It also strikes me that sometimes we're too hard on our own brews. Have you shared this with others? I find homebrew meetings a great source of helpful feedback.

I have had other try them and they dont mind them. I personally dont like it that much. Not sure I could call this a green apple taste but maybe. I will keep trying and looks like I need to learn more about attenuation

 

[Yooper]

70 degrees is pretty warm- which yeast strains have you been using? Some taste good at 70 but many others are better at lower temperatures. Are you fermenting with the beer at 70, or the air temperature at 70?

 

[MAC80]

70 degrees is pretty warm- which yeast strains have you been using? Some taste good at 70 but many others are better at lower temperatures. Are you fermenting with the beer at 70, or the air temperature at 70?

Beer temp at 70. Mostly WLP095. I had a local homebrewer tell me that anything below 70 was to cold for fermentation

 

[Rob2010SS]

I usually drink my NEIPAs right after they're kegged. They go in the keg, carb for 2-3 days and I start drinking.

@Yooper has a valid point. I usually try and stay towards the low to mid 60's during fermentation. If 70*F is your ambient temp around the fermenter, the beer could actually be more like 75-78*F.

Could you share your recipe on this last all grain batch? Someone mentioned it could be out of balance, we may be able to help pinpoint that if that's the case...

 

[Rob2010SS]

Beer temp at 70. Mostly WLP095. I had a local homebrewer tell me that anything below 70 was to cold for fermentation

The optimum ferm temp for that yeast is 67-70*F. If I were you, I'd shoot for more along the low end with that at 67*F.

To make a general statement that anything below 70 is too cold for fermentation is incorrect. It all depends on the yeast.

 

[MAC80]

I usually drink my NEIPAs right after they're kegged. They go in the keg, carb for 2-3 days and I start drinking.

@Yooper has a valid point. I usually try and stay towards the low to mid 60's during fermentation. If 70*F is your ambient temp around the fermenter, the beer could actually be more like 75-78*F.

Could you share your recipe on this last all grain batch? Someone mentioned it could be out of balance, we may be able to help pinpoint that if that's the case...

As I am still new to brewing I am using an all grain kit. Its the haze crazy kit from morebeer. It seems a little strange that I get the same off flavor from every beer. Some more than others no matter the process or the yeast. I will say fermentation temp has been at 70 every time though

 

[Yooper]

Beer temp at 70. Mostly WLP095. I had a local homebrewer tell me that anything below 70 was to cold for fermentation

I wouldn't take any more advice from him- he's dead wrong. Many yeast strains have a HIGH limit of 70, and many of them (like S04) taste pretty good at 62, but get kind of foul at above 68 degrees.

As I am still new to brewing I am using an all grain kit. Its the haze crazy kit from morebeer. It seems a little strange that I get the same off flavor from every beer. Some more than others no matter the process or the yeast. I will say fermentation temp has been at 70 every time though

Definitely look at the yeast strain you're using when deciding on temperature, and shoot for the low end. For example, one of my favorite ale yeast strains is Wyeast 1450:

"This terrific all-round yeast can be used for almost any style of beer and is a mainstay of renowned homebrewer Mr. Denny Conn. It is unique in that it produces a big mouthfeel and helps accentuate the malt, caramel, or fruit character of a beer without being sweet or under-attenuative. Apparent attenuation: 74-76%. Flocculation: low. Optimum temp: 60°-70° F"

I must have missed it- but how are you measuring the temperature? Inside the fermenting beer, or the ambient?

Also, what is the water you are using, specifically?

 

[MAC80]

I wouldn't take any more advice from him- he's dead wrong. Many yeast strains have a HIGH limit of 70, and many of them (like S04) taste pretty good at 62, but get kind of foul at above 68 degrees.



Definitely look at the yeast strain you're using when deciding on temperature, and shoot for the low end. For example, one of my favorite ale yeast strains is Wyeast 1450:

"This terrific all-round yeast can be used for almost any style of beer and is a mainstay of renowned homebrewer Mr. Denny Conn. It is unique in that it produces a big mouthfeel and helps accentuate the malt, caramel, or fruit character of a beer without being sweet or under-attenuative. Apparent attenuation: 74-76%. Flocculation: low. Optimum temp: 60°-70° F"

I must have missed it- but how are you measuring the temperature? Inside the fermenting beer, or the ambient?

Also, what is the water you are using, specifically?

I tape the probe to the fermenter and cover the probe with a towel. The water is a harris teeter brand bottled spring water

 

[parjay]

Did you get a gravity reading before you kegged? What temp did you mash at? Sweetness makes me wonder about attenuation.

I am also in the camp of lower fermentation temp is better. I pitch at the low end of the yeast's temp range and then after fermentation starts to slow down (usually about 2-3 days when I am within a few points of my target gravity) I increase my temperature 2 degrees per day to get up to the high end of the yeast's temp range. It might not be necessary, but the thought it is that is that many temp related off flavors are caused by the yeast in the early stages of fermentation and the subsequent warming of the beer keeps the yeast active as the alcohol rich environment starts to slow them down.

For what it is worth, I made that Haze Craze kit using extract a while back, and it was awesome. It is actually the left beer in my profile pic.

 

[MAC80]

Did you get a gravity reading before you kegged? What temp did you mash at? Sweetness makes me wonder about attenuation.

I am also in the camp of lower fermentation temp is better. I pitch at the low end of the yeast's temp range and then after fermentation starts to slow down (usually about 2-3 days when I am within a few points of my target gravity) I increase my temperature 2 degrees per day to get up to the high end of the yeast's temp range. It might not be necessary, but the thought it is that is that many temp related off flavors are caused by the yeast in the early stages of fermentation and the subsequent warming of the beer keeps the yeast active as the alcohol rich environment starts to slow them down.

For what it is worth, I made that Haze Craze kit using extract a while back, and it was awesome. It is actually the left beer in my profile pic.

It started at 1062 and was 1018 for 3 days before kegging. Mash temp was 150.

 

[wepeeler]

Like others have said, each yeast has an optimal temperature range. I always err on the lower side, as most yeast will produce esters at the higher end of the temperature threshold. I usually start low, because the beer can actually get 5-7 degrees warmer than the ambient temperature. Usually around day 4 or 5, I'll raise the temperature for a diacetyl rest. Yeast produce this compound, and it has been described as buttery popcorn or butterscotch flavor. You should raise the temperature of your beer to the high 60s or low 70s while it's still actively fermenting, and the yeast will "clean up" the diacetyl. Usually for ales this isn't a huge issue, but it's a necessary step for lagers. Perhaps this is the "sweet grain" flavor you're tasting?

 

[parjay]

It started at 1062 and was 1018 for 3 days before kegging. Mash temp was 150.

That is on the low end for attenuation for that yeast, but only by a couple of points. I wouldn't think it would be enough to make your beer taste sweet.

 

[GPP33]

That is on the low end for attenuation for that yeast, but only by a couple of points. I wouldn't think it would be enough to make your beer taste sweet.

1.018 sounds like a sweet beer to me. Grain bill and hops utilization will obviously affect perception but that’s pretty high IMO. Now I don’t brew NEIPAs so maybe it’s normal for the style.

I always ferment cool and drink young. My last IPA was fermented at 64 and started drinking 24 hours after I put it in the keg.

 

[MAC80]

Like others have said, each yeast has an optimal temperature range. I always err on the lower side, as most yeast will produce esters at the higher end of the temperature threshold. I usually start low, because the beer can actually get 5-7 degrees warmer than the ambient temperature. Usually around day 4 or 5, I'll raise the temperature for a diacetyl rest. Yeast produce this compound, and it has been described as buttery popcorn or butterscotch flavor. You should raise the temperature of your beer to the high 60s or low 70s while it's still actively fermenting, and the yeast will "clean up" the diacetyl. Usually for ales this isn't a huge issue, but it's a necessary step for lagers. Perhaps this is the "sweet grain" flavor you're tasting?

It doesnt really remind me of either of those flavors but it very well could be the cause of the flavor along with the fact that it is also young

 

[parjay]

1.018 sounds like a sweet beer to me. Grain bill and hops utilization will obviously affect perception but that’s pretty high IMO. Now I don’t brew NEIPAs so maybe it’s normal for the style.

I must have a weak palate! Based on the Morebeer numbers, they were targeting 1.014. When I made that beer I think it ended up around 1.012, but I honestly have no idea what my threshold is for picking up on a gravity change.

 

[MAC80]

Sounds like I need to start fermenting at a lower temp than I have been. I really appreciate everyone's help. Its nice to know I have a place to turn for advice

 

[MAC80]

I must have a weak palate! Based on the Morebeer numbers, they were targeting 1.014. When I made that beer I think it ended up around 1.012, but I honestly have no idea what my threshold is for picking up on a gravity change.

I dont think it was the best batch. I never got a real good krausen and it didnt last long

 

[wepeeler]

Sounds like I need to start fermenting at a lower temp than I have been. I really appreciate everyone's help. Its nice to know I have a place to turn for advice

Another thing, I know a lot of people start drinking from their kegs almost immediately, but I've been brewing NEIPAs exclusively for the past 18 months, and every time, they peak after 1 week in the keg. I ferment for 2 weeks, keg, then try my darndest to only sample a little until after the 3rd week. It peaks between weeks 3-5 every single time. Perhaps that's just for my particular beer, but it happens every time.

 

[GPP33]

I must have a weak palate! Based on the Morebeer numbers, they were targeting 1.014. When I made that beer I think it ended up around 1.012, but I honestly have no idea what my threshold is for picking up on a gravity change.

I'm not at all saying I can reliably detect a slight gravity change either. Generally I get down around 1.01 unless I've added lactose in which case I'm up around 1.02 for something like a sweet stout. I would imagine one could tell the difference between a 1.01 and 1.02 beer but can't say I've had the same recipe at both ends of the spectrum to compare. Took a quick glance at the recipe from Morebeer and it looks like he should have ended at about 1.013-1.015 which isn't far form 1.018 but maybe is enough to make a difference.

I'd bet the Op will find his solution in mash temp (uncalibrated thermometer?), ferm temp (go BELOW the recemonded temp range, I ferment 001 at 64, range to 68-73, also make sure your temp probe/controller is calibrated) or yeast selection (maybe there's just something produced by that yeast that you are sensitive to).

Something to help back up what has been said a hundred times in this thread.....Read at the very end, I think he has a very valid point and good observation that for some strains it doesn't matter as much as others. In my limited experience with triangle tests I've found it's very difficult to reliably detect slight differences so if a test reveals a difference it was a pretty substantial one.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/21/fermentation-temperature-pt-9-wlp300-hefeweizen-ale-yeast/

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I think there is something to letting beers condition, even in kegs. I recently did a Simcoe/Amarillo IPA based on many people saying they loved the combo and let me tell you after carbing up for a week in the keg I hated it. There was some kind of harshness or flavor that I did not like. I drank it sparingly over the next week and I have to say it improved significantly as it sat. By the end of the keg I surprisingly really liked it. Makes me wonder how good it might've been if I'd let it sat even longer before tapping.

 

[GPP33]

Aging is a highly debated topic which will probably never be fully answered since every beer is different and you can never sample the exact same beer young and old side by side. We are left trying to rely on memory which sucks, especially when it comes to flavor perception. What we do know is that time allows flavors to blend and mellow which happens to work well for beers that are dark, strong and mysterious as well as beers that exhibit undesirable off flavors. Aging however doesn’t work well for beers that are designed to have a very prominent and specific flavor such as hoppy IPAs.

I have noticed two beers undoubtedly improve with age, a Hefe with a strong sulfur smell from a hot fermentation and a scotch that got highly airated during transfer. The sulfur smell eventually dissipated and the scotch developed an amazing sherry flavor from the oxidation. Early on in brewing I though all my beers peaked at about 4 weeks but I no longer feel that’s the case.

 

[Yooper]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. What kind of pressure are you using, with the spunding valve? Many yeast strains don't do well under pressure, or at least may get stressed and cause some off-flavors. It's a longshot, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Nuno Santos]

My 2 cents (though I am not really an expert).

I have seen in several places that if you ferment at higher temperature you can end up having too many esters, which cause a fruity, sweet flavor and smell.

I actually recently finished an IPA with dry hop (2 weeks fermentation and then bottled), and after one week (today) I opened the first bottle. Nice beer, can certainly age a bit more, but also got a bit of this fruity flavor (maybe a bit more than I would have liked to, but not huge). And indeed, fermentation occurred closer to the high end of the range proposed for that ferment (S04 from Fermentis).

My suggestion is thus that next time you check in the forum, etc, what people say about the ferment you use, specially regarding the best temperature range.

 

[MAC80]

Oh, one thing I just thought of. What kind of pressure are you using, with the spunding valve? Many yeast strains don't do well under pressure, or at least may get stressed and cause some off-flavors. It's a longshot, but I thought I'd mention it.

This one was about 12 lbs of pressure.

 

[Yooper]

This one was about 12 lbs of pressure.

I don't use pressurized fermentation, but if I recall what I think I know, that sounds very high. It might be worthwhile to look into that, and see if I'm crazy (quite possibly) or if that actually is too high for the yeast strain you're using.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

I don't use pressurized fermentation, but if I recall what I think I know, that sounds very high. It might be worthwhile to look into that, and see if I'm crazy (quite possibly) or if that actually is too high for the yeast strain you're using.

I agree I use 3-6 psi

 

[BigRobb]

I have just finished my 4th brew. I have learned a lot so far but still very new to brewing and learning something new every time. I have made some mistakes. All my beers have a flavor to them. After some research I think it is because I don't let the brew age before drinking. I have only left it in the keg for about 3 days to carbonate. Would others agree?

If so how long do you let it sit in the keg before drinking and at what temp? Do you cold crash and then age at room temperature?

Thanks for any advice
Cheers

Hey Mac... I agree with comments above that many components can cause the off flavours. As long as you are sure you have the cleaning and sanitizing down, I would suggest perhaps water chemistry is where you should look. Adjust your water a bit for each type of beer you are brewing and you will notice a difference in quality. As for carbonating in keg, I own a small brew pub and we carbonate in keg with no problems... we do 24 hours on the gas at 35 psi... then let them sit for 24 hours off the gas and beer is ready to serve. Yes some beers will do better if you can then let them sit for some time after carbonating before drinking... but this method of carbonating works well. Good Luck man! Cheers

 

[Oldskewl]

Are you making yeast starters for your yeast? Stressed yeast can cause off flavors and under attenuate.

 

[brewcat]

What @Oldskewl said. Check your pitch rate especially since you're using a liquid yeast.

 

[MAC80]

Hey Mac... I agree with comments above that many components can cause the off flavours. As long as you are sure you have the cleaning and sanitizing down, I would suggest perhaps water chemistry is where you should look. Adjust your water a bit for each type of beer you are brewing and you will notice a difference in quality. As for carbonating in keg, I own a small brew pub and we carbonate in keg with no problems... we do 24 hours on the gas at 35 psi... then let them sit for 24 hours off the gas and beer is ready to serve. Yes some beers will do better if you can then let them sit for some time after carbonating before drinking... but this method of carbonating works well. Good Luck man! Cheers

I am making a starter but not sure that it is correct. Not even really sure how to make the correct amount

 

[GPP33]

I am making a starter but not sure that it is correct. Not even really sure how to make the correct amount

You're making starters but you don't know how to determine the correct starter size? I'd certainly start with a calculator to help you determine that. Google beer starter calculator.

 

[MAC80]

You're making starters but you don't know how to determine the correct starter size? I'd certainly start with a calculator to help you determine that. Google beer starter calculator.

I have been using the advice of the guy at the LHBS and making my starters that way but have no idea if it is right. I looked at the starter calculator on beer smith and was within a few ML of what I have been using. Should it be more exact? I will definitely try out the google beer starter.

 

[MAC80]

So I forgot about for a week in the keg, the flavor has settled and a lot like butterscotch. I am going to assume that it is fermentation temperature at this point. I will try another batch at a lower temp and adjust the starter and see what happens

 

[Bigdaddyale]

So I forgot about for a week in the keg, the flavor has settled and a lot like butterscotch. I am going to assume that it is fermentation temperature at this point. I will try another batch at a lower temp and adjust the starter and see what happens

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/