Aging beer: Facts, myths, and discussion

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Simps said:
Hey helibrewer, do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting you, I'd just like to read the article or book you pulled it from.
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I'll try to track something down, it's something Dr. Bamforth covered during a course at Davis.

EDIT: This article covers it pretty well:Ergosterol in fermentation, the specific sterol that yeast use is Ergosterol.

As an aside, Antifungal creams work by destroying this component in fungi.
 
helibrewer said:
Aerating or oxygenating is used because the yeast need to produce sterols which become part of their cell walls. These sterols create a special channel in the cell wall that helps the yeast survive as the alcohol level in the wort increase.

Aerating and oxygenation really don't have a lot to do with yeast growth directly but do effect the yeast populations health as fermentation progresses. This is why even breweries that pitch directly from their harvested yeast still use air or O2.
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Okay...So how does Yuri get away with not aerating? I can only assume from your comment that as the alcohol level goes up the need for aeration goes up even if he does pitch extra yeast.
 
mhermetz said:
Okay...So how does Yuri get away with not aerating? I can only assume from your comment that as the alcohol level goes up the need for aeration goes up even if he does pitch extra yeast.
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FWIW, Danstar scientists have said that aeration or O2 isn't needed when using their dry yeasts, properly rehydrated. Something about their dry yeast having sufficient sterols without additional aeration. Their scientists have also said that higher gravity worts benefit from a boost of O2 24 hours into the fermentation.

On the practical side, I have been coming around more and more to dry yeast and I have found that when rehydrated and attemperated that the results have been very good, so good that unless the style really calls for something not available dry, I rarely play around with starters and smack packs or vials anymore. I do have an O2 setup that I use in some situations. This is a big change for me, when I first started brewing I was using dry yeast via the sprinkle method and noticed a big improvement when I went to the liquid yeast, starters and all that. Now I've come back around.
 
progmac said:
FWIW, Danstar scientists have said that aeration or O2 isn't needed when using their dry yeasts, properly rehydrated. Something about their dry yeast having sufficient sterols without additional aeration. Their scientists have also said that higher gravity worts benefit from a boost of O2 24 hours into the fermentation.

On the practical side, I have been coming around more and more to dry yeast and I have found that when rehydrated and attemperated that the results have been very good, so good that unless the style really calls for something not available dry, I rarely play around with starters and smack packs or vials anymore. I do have an O2 setup that I use in some situations. This is a big change for me, when I first started brewing I was using dry yeast via the sprinkle method and noticed a big improvement when I went to the liquid yeast, starters and all that. Now I've come back around.
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^^^ This. I also make wine and dry yeast is about all that is used. The dry yeast does have a sterol reserve, that combined with the fact that it is very easy to pitch the proper amount makes starters not necessary. There is a case on the wine side for oxygenation and it does seem to help reduce stuck fermentations in some wines....wine must is about devoid of nutrients for yeast which is an entirely different issue.
 
13 days ago, I brewed 10 gallons of a Kentucky Common Beer. I'm calling it "Louisville Slugger", in honor of both, a wonderful company that produced baseball bats, and of a show horse SWMBO owned and showed well.
Being a KY native, the style interested me. I read all I could find, about the style, and slowly developed my own recipe, borrowing from others who had also done research. Noting that the style was typically served fresh, I rushed it from grain to glass. However, I used solid techniques... Appropriate yeast pitching rates, and solid fermentation temp control. I pulled my first glass today. It is good. Grain to glass in 13 days is a first for me.
I only have 5 gallons on tap. The other 5 gallons is still maturing. It will be interesting to see how the additional time maturing will change this brew.
 
Edit: I meant to mention that I used dry yeast (US-05), properly hydrated at a rate of 1 packet per 5 gallons.
 
These are recent brews of mine and I'm aging them at least to Christmas. Or at least that's the plan at the moment. The Sack Sweat in secondary is surprisingly delicious already, but could use some time to mellow. I posted this separately, but I think think is a better place for it. Am I making a mistake? The general consensus seems to be against the idea of aging...View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1427666578.964936.jpg
 
Sack sweat haha I like the way you think I have one called Butt-hole Stout because that's were I got the recipe from
 
landonrone said:
These are recent brews of mine and I'm aging them at least to Christmas. Or at least that's the plan at the moment. The Sack Sweat in secondary is surprisingly delicious already, but could use some time to mellow. I posted this separately, but I think think is a better place for it. Am I making a mistake? The general consensus seems to be against the idea of aging...View attachment 267476
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Your beers are big in ABV so its fine to age it IMO. I think the only beers that benefit from aging is big beers and sours.




I like how this old thread pops up about fresh beer and so many people gave me crap for telling that guy to dump a 2.5 yr old IPA which he didn't even secondary or do anything to ensure its going to be good for that long. Prob didn't even top off the airlock and didn't even add fresh yeast when bottling. just freakin LOL
 
People will try to disagree with you just for giggles I found that out using beer advocate the people on there are without a doubt the stupidest people I've ever met
 
j1n said:
I like how this old thread pops up about fresh beer and so many people gave me crap for telling that guy to dump a 2.5 yr old IPA which he didn't even secondary or do anything to ensure its going to be good for that long. Prob didn't even top off the airlock and didn't even add fresh yeast when bottling. just freakin LOL
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Do you ride the subway all day?
 
I am extremely new to brewing - only about a month and half or so. You'll see me asking LOTS of questions about simple stuff on here.

That said, I've got my second batch of ginger beer brewing...will probably pull it and stick it in the fridge either today or tomorrow. It's been brewing since Sunday evening. The first batch only brewed for about 6 or 7 days, as well. I don't know the difference, really, in all the different flavors and tastes between the different alcohols produced. I don't have a hydrometer yet, so I don't know the exact ABV.

Here is what I do know. The first batch tasted AMAZING, and 16 oz of it got me feeling quite good. This second batch, I believe, will taste even better, because I more closely controlled the amount of ginger, so it doesn't burn as you drink it.

But honestly...this recipe I am using...from boil to drinking in 7 or 8 days...no problems at all.

Other stuff, yes, I can certainly see the need for aging. I have a coffee wine brewing right now, as well. Should be done today or tomorrow, as well (it's only 3 cups worth...quick ferment, I guess). I think that will need to age for a week or two to let the flavors mingle well.

That's my two cents.

- Matthew
 
I'm sure someone has hit on this but gelatin as a fining agent is absolutely amazing, however the recommended tsp per 5 gallon is not helpful to hard yeasts like US-04 (my IPA did clear but took 5 days).

The more you use the harder it will be to clean but it's worth it. I use a pure sanke system and I can manage :D
 
RevKev said:
I'm sure someone has hit on this but gelatin as a fining agent is absolutely amazing, however the recommended tsp per 5 gallon is not helpful to hard yeasts like US-04 (my IPA did clear but took 5 days).

The more you use the harder it will be to clean but it's worth it. I use a pure sanke system and I can manage :D
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I hope you meant US-05 and not S-04. S-04 drop like a rock and stays there...US-05 not so much.
 
I just got around to reading the first page of this thread...when I posted last time, I had skimmed through some of the later comments.

I find it quite hilarious that anyone would compare homebrewing to Budweiser. If Bud - any version of Bud - is the goal you're pitting yourself against...that's just sad. Sorry if that hurts feelings...but that is some horrible beer to compare yourself to.

That said - Since my last post...I've learned some things. Ginger beer - technically I still stand by what I said before. My ginger beer can go from ferment to drinkable, no problem. Can it use some aging? We'll see. I actually have about a 1/2 gallon put away. It fermented for a good 7-10 days, then sat in the secondary for about five or six days, then continued to sit with some toasted oak chips for about 7 or 10 days. Then I bottled it. It's been bottled for about a week. It was quite strong, so I'm thinking aging will do it some good...allow that alcohol to cool off some. I have some wines from back in March or April that I gave a taste of about three weeks ago. They were amazing. Of course, wine is quite different than beer. I'm just now getting around to making my first batch of beer today. From what I've learned...what Yuri said on the first page is absolutely right.

Taste your brew. If it is good, it is ready. It seems to be that simple.
 
torilen said:
I find it quite hilarious that anyone would compare homebrewing to Budweiser. If Bud - any version of Bud - is the goal you're pitting yourself against...that's just sad. Sorry if that hurts feelings...but that is some horrible beer to compare yourself to.
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I think you're confusing style of beer with mastery of craft. You indicate you haven't even brewed a batch of beer yet. I'd suggest you hold back on your criticism until you try to brew a lager that's as perfectly clean as a Bud, and then try to do it exactly the same over and over again. Then maybe you'll understand why even the very best homebrewers veiw Bud as a top benchmark against which to measure their skill.
 
I've always heard bud is one of the hardest things to brew. There is so little going on in the beer that even tiny off flavors stand out.
 
The comparison to Bud is not because I want my beer to taste like that crap. I was merely explaining that mass commercial beer manufacturers cheat in the process. Budweiser does not age their beers. I know this because, well, you can contact Bill Ross at Yellow House Canyon Brew Works in Lubbock, Texas.
At any rate................ I ferment all my beers in primary for 4 weeks. I find it a good thing for gravity, especially with the Belgian yeasts. I usually age in secondary for about........... well just til I get motivated to bottle it. No rhyme or reason behind it. I get lazy at times. I brew every week. I do no not drink store bought anymore. I mash from grains only with exception to making candy syrup for some of the Belgians. Mostly I use M27 from Mangrove Jack and save my yeast until abot 3rd, no more than 4th generation. I have gotten it down to a pretty good science.
So for aging? As long as you want.
 
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jwalker - again...sorry it I am hurting feelings...and yes, I know I really have no business criticizing when I am just now brewing my first actual beer. But honestly...Bud taste like crap. Anyone who has tasted real beer will say that. Clean tasting/looking? I don't know if I would agree with that...it has nothing in it to taste, as far as I can tell. If people want to compare to something - look to Blue Moon, Sam Adams, Yuengling, Sierra Nevada, Dogfish Head...anything like that. I understand most of these might be considered closer to the microbrewery level - but I think they are available across the entire U.S., yes?

And honestly - just because I haven't brew a beer fully yet, that does not necessarily mean I cannot comment and/or criticize a poor tasting beer. People who haven't written or directed a movie can tell when a movie sucks. People who haven't written a novel can tell when a book sucks. Just because someone doesn't have a painting in a museum doesn't mean they don't get to criticize art. Right?
 
Torilen, you're not hurting my feelings at all because I think we're still talking about two different things: your personal hatred for Bud (and maybe the style in general) vs. the reason why some brewers nonetheless try to brew the style.

We get it, you don't like Bud. And that's fine. But it is just a subjective opinion (and one that I don't necessarily disagree with).

But like it or not, Bud is probably the most recognizable example of the American Lager style category, which is one of the hardest styles to brew well. That's not subjective.

And I'm not suggesting you shouldn't be able to criticize a beer because you don't have a bunch of batches under your belt. I'm simply suggesting that once you've been at it for a while and have more firsthand experience with how hard it is to brew a truly exceptional beer (especially a super clean lager), you might be less apt to start spouting criticisms at the notion of someone trying to brew something like a Bud. Because like it or not, trying to brew an American Lager takes some cojones. Otherwise, you just come off sounding like a noob, or worse. Sorry if I am hurting feelings.
 
I really appreciate this post. I surprisingly learned a lot that I didn't know already :D.
 
I've been drinking my IPA's within a week of brewing. That includes brewing, fermenting, dry hopping, cold crashing, and force carbonating. There's not much to it, just move on to the next step asap as soon as the previous step is done.

I've also been drinking IPAs, lagers, stouts, etc 6+ months after brewing and they definitely taste more watery, less bitter, more mellow, less aromatic, easier drinking, smoother, etc etc. Whether or not that is a good thing depends on the style. IPAs probably not so much, imperial stouts yes.

So when it comes to aging beer my vote falls along the lines of many, age beers that historically "should" be aged, and enjoy fresh the IPAs.

To throw a wrench in the works I plan to soon brew an 18+% crazy high abv IPA, with nearly a full pound of hops throughout the process. I expect to be able to enjoy it fresh as well as enjoy it as it ages, we will see how the year affect this brew.
 
I agree with all that you said.

Pitching more than enough yeast and paying attention to fermentation temp has helped my beers tremendously. I also started using gelatin to clear my beer. It seems to cut the conditioning time way down.
 
My brewing partner and I brewed 10 gallons of 12.5% imperial stout, he bottled his half and I kegged mine. We started drinking his bottles within 2 weeks and finished them before we started on my keg. There was no flavor advantage in having waited 6 months for my beer to age, it tasted just like his bottles had.
 
I'm going to drop my two cents here as well. I'm drinking an American strong that was in primary for 8 days, cold crashed in the keg, and force carbed for 2 days. It's beautiful. And when I say Strong, I mean STRONG....OG was at 1.089 and it came down to 1.012 for an ABV of 10.1%. No off flavors, mild fusels that are fading, huge malt flavor with just enough hops and just about perfect to me. If your process is good, and you pitch plenty of healthy yeast, in my opinion there's no reason to go beyond 10 days in primary as long as it tastes good. I still ferment in plastic buckets with spigots, and take a taste after the krausen drops to make sure it's going where I want it to. When it's done, it's done. I have to admit, I'm afraid to let my beer go beyond 11 days for fear of nasty stuff happening. Once it's crashed and carbed, if it tastes good I'm going to drink it. I've only ever aged one beer and that was for a month until I took it to my daughter's wedding...during which time I annihilated its brother keg because it tasted too good.
 
What? Blasphemy and sacrilege! We all know that a good bet takes a minimum of three months of gentle whispered incantations with the burning of candles and incense, the performing of magical rites and the weaving of strange symbols and esoterical gestures in the air above the fermenting chamber.
And that's just for an average beer. Most of the prize winning home Brewers will perform a daily sacrifice of at least one virgin child three goats and a chicken whilst whispering the sacred screed of the holy venerated father, John Palmer, and the sacred text how to brew.
And yay, we pray, let the dreaded autolysis not visit us in this hour of darkness, rack often and constantly least this evil visit us in our pure and righteous home
 
I brewed a IS about 13%+ ended up about 1.05, was great fresh but that was October '16, just kegged 2gal rye soaked oak aged last week.

Age helps. So. Much.
 
divrack said:
What? Blasphemy and sacrilege! We all know that a good bet takes a minimum of three months of gentle whispered incantations with the burning of candles and incense, the performing of magical rites and the weaving of strange symbols and esoterical gestures in the air above the fermenting chamber.
And that's just for an average beer. Most of the prize winning home Brewers will perform a daily sacrifice of at least one virgin child three goats and a chicken whilst whispering the sacred screed of the holy venerated father, John Palmer, and the sacred text how to brew.
And yay, we pray, let the dreaded autolysis not visit us in this hour of darkness, rack often and constantly least this evil visit us in our pure and righteous home
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OMG !!! PRICELESS!!!
 

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