Aging beer: Facts, myths, and discussion

[kendrid]

For the first time I bottled my beer skipping secondary. Brown Ale 1.042, 3 weeks primary and straight to the bottles.
And sure enough - it is over-carbonated. I think you can skip secondary, but only when you keg the beer and you can control the level of carbonation.

What does going to a secondary have to do with over-carbonating in a bottle? I am new to this but I thought carbonating was done by the amount of sugar added (as long as fermentation is complete). I used Tastybrew's online sugar calculator and took out some of the sugar from my kit since the calculator said it was too much. I won't open one until this Friday so I'm far from an expert but I thought that is how it worked. Opinions? I am starting a Pale Ale this week and was going to do three weeks in the primary instead of two like I did with my amber ale but it seems like three weeks is pointless (I will be using a starter).

 

[neuron555]

If everything else is consistent from batch to batch, then that would suggest that the fermentation was not yet completed when it was bottled. Being in secondary or not shouldn't matter as long as enough time was given to let the yeast finish its work.

 

[kappclark]

I just discovered this thread, and Bravo!

I used to bottle, but kegging has accelerated my brewing cycle, and I am very pleased with that .. I have had some 4.5 week beers which were excellent...I know when bottling it would take longer...and it was always worth the wait.

Going to secondary to free up the primary used to be my theme, until I thought -"Gee, and extra bucket is $15 ... why not just do another primary ?"

Obviously, if I had a SS conical, I would prob be doing secondary, then keg (is this necc though ? Can't you just go straight on to the keg after say 10 days and a few yeast harvests ?)

Once nore - excellent and practical advice about a fun and forgiving hobby !

 

[mrburnsbud]

great info

 

[conpewter]

If you use a stir-plate for your starters do you still need a 1 gallon starter to get a good pitching rate? Really the size of the starter is no indication of how many yeast cells have been produced.

MB Raines, Ph.D. - Guide to Yeast Culturing for Homebrewers - Maltose Falcons Home Brewing Society (Los Angeles Homebrewing)

I generally pitch a liquid yeast pack into 1000ml of wort on a stirplate. This should give me way over the pitching rate calculated with the MrMalty calculator (for most ales)

Also why do they always recommend stepping up by factors of 10? When yeast banking I use ~20ml containers, but I usually just pitch into 1000ml of wort for those as well, instead of stepping up to 200 then to 1000.

EDIT: answered my own question by reading further down in my linked article...

Close examination of Figure 3 indicates that yeast should not be diluted more than 200 times the previous volume. In otherwords 10 ml should not be stepped up to more than 2 liters. The rationale behind this is simple. During yeast propagation it is important to keep the yeast growing exponentially (Figure 3, phase III). Diluting the yeast out too far will slow down their growth and give bacteria a chance to overtake the culture.

So I am perfectly fine pitching 20 ml into 1L of wort, which will get me 360-720 billion cells (The starters used in the article are 500ml). Considering that pitching rate should be 200billion cells for a typical 5 gallon batch... I'm good. I think this is why my last porter did not attenuate as usual, I didn't have time to make a starter so just used the smack pack, big difference.

 

[jxm387]

I agree that lack of a secondary doesn't necessarily impact clarity and carbonation, but you ARE going to impact flavor. Especially autolyzed yeast, if you're sitting on yeast for long periods of time.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

I agree that lack of a secondary doesn't necessarily impact clarity and carbonation, but you ARE going to impact flavor. Especially autolyzed yeast, if you're sitting on yeast for long periods of time.

Do a forum search for autolysis. It takes longer than you think. I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

 

[Danek]

I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

+1 to that.

 

[Beer:30]

Yuri - As always, very helpful posts. And even for those brewers who aren't new, its nice to be reminded of some solid brewing habits that maybe some of use should pay more attention too.

Thanks again.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I wonder what in the world Budweiser does to their beer that peaks it's taste at 28 days, then starts to slide downhill after that.

Also, we're talking about Budweiser, here. "Peaking" is a relative term.

You just can't polish a turd Beavis.

Years ago when I started brewing all I had available was the small Wyeast smack packs (now called the 'Propagator'). I would make a 1 pint starter and that worked fine for every 'typical' ale I did (fine regarding attenuation...not necessarily fine regarding off-flavors). In any case, I thought I was pitching plenty and certainly had no idea it was a fraction of what it should be.

I still need to get the timing down. I was used to having my small 1 pint starters at high krausen when I pitched...but if I pitch the 'correct' amount then that's a 1-1.5 qt. starter in 5 gallons and I hate adding that much 'bad beer' to my fermenter. So I guess I need to start the starters earlier so they can finish and flocc and then I can decant the liquid and only pitch the slurry. Even my cold-pitched lagers krausen within 12-18 hours with just a 1 qt. starter (from an Activator or vial) but per the pitching rate calcs that's like 1/4-1/3 of what it should be.

I drink so little that fast turnaround is the least of my worries. I'm now starting to brew more lagers and funky Belgians just because they take more time (at least this way I can brew without creating a big logjam at the keezer).

 

[sirsloop]

Keep the recipe simple. Heaps of spices, large amounts of strong flavored malts, hefty hops schedules, and non-traditional ingredients can force you to condition the beer for an extended period. There's nothing wrong with big, complex recipes, but don't expect a quick turnaround when brewing them.

Discuss.

Heaps of spices, large amounts of strong flavored malts, hefty hops schedules, and non-traditional ingredients make it fun!

 

[TheFlatline]

Do a forum search for autolysis. It takes longer than you think. I've had beers in the primary for up to 8 weeks with no detectable autolysis.

I have you beat here.

I forgot about a beer in a closet, and it sat for SEVEN MONTHS on the yeast cake.

It had other off flavors, as it was my last not-so-temperature-controlled beer, but there was zero autolysis flavor.

 

[Helter]

I have you beat here.

I forgot about a beer in a closet, and it sat for SEVEN MONTHS on the yeast cake.

It had other off flavors, as it was my last not-so-temperature-controlled beer, but there was zero autolysis flavor.

I went between 12-18 months once. It didn't carb properly (I think I forgot the priming sugar), but other than that was perfectly fine.

 

[Grim_Ale]

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

 

[BierMuncher]

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

Rack to secondary with gelatin. Wait 4-5 days for clarity. Dry hop for 5-7 days. Rack to keg and crash chill.

 

[Grim_Ale]

English PLease.....lol.

But seriously, I dry hop in primary and willl not have a secondary carboy for about 2 months.

I also Bottle, dont have the cash for a kegging system so thats also not helpful either.

I appreciate the info but its just jibber jabber to me.

 

[beerthirty]

Grim, once fermentation is complete, (or two weeks) dry hop in the primary for one week. Then cold crash for 3-4 days and rack to your bottling bucket.

 

[TexLaw]

What about cold crashing your beer and dry hopping?

Do you crash first then dry hop?

Dry Hop then crash once the 10-14 days passes ?

OR cold Crash, Dry Hop, then Cold Crash Again?

I dry hop and then cold crash everything.


TL

 

[CnnmnSchnpps]

Great thread, thanks for all the tips guys..

Someone above suggested tipping the bottles over every couple of days to re-suspend the yeast. This seems to make alot of sense, kick those lazy buggers in the butt and force them to do their job. Haha..

Is there any reason this might be a bad idea? Provided of course you give the yeast enough time after the last shake to settle out and flocculate?

D

 

[Piotr]

Someone above suggested tipping the bottles over every couple of days to re-suspend the yeast. This seems to make alot of sense, kick those lazy buggers in the butt and force them to do their job. Haha..

Is there any reason this might be a bad idea? Provided of course you give the yeast enough time after the last shake to settle out and flocculate?

IMO if won't do any harm, but it won't help much either. Yeast that already floculated are clumped together and after shaking they will be back on the bottom within hour.

EDIT: I must disagree with myself, I've just read that Fix recommends rousing highly flocculant yeast, so it must work somehow...

 

[discgolfin]

For the first time I bottled my beer skipping secondary. Brown Ale 1.042, 3 weeks primary and straight to the bottles.
And sure enough - it is over-carbonated. I think you can skip secondary, but only when you keg the beer and you can control the level of carbonation.

???? not sure what you are asking or saying here..

Secondary has no affect on carbonation of your beer. It simply is to allow the beer to clarify and for some to bulk age a beer. I use it only when I want to dry hop a beer or need room in a primary. In your case you more than likely had more yeast in your bottles but other than that.. I always go directly from primary when I keg and when I bottle...no affect on the beer either way..I would imagine you used more sugar when you bottled than normal..

Rolling bottles for me speed up the process a bit..I have carbed beer in less than a week at 70 degrees by rolling them daily..however it only makes you drink the beer faster so the full 3 to 4 weeks is what I usually do when I bottle.


J

 

[Piotr]

???? not sure what you are asking or saying here..

Secondary has no affect on carbonation of your beer.

Since that Brown Ale I made some 2 dozens of batches, many of them with no secondary, and I must admit I've never had the overcabonation effect again.
What was wrong with that batch? I don't know.

 

[WBC]

The worst things you can do to ruin your beer is......

Not using enough yeast for the quantity brewed.

Fermenting in the upper range of the yeast's suggested range of temperature. The colder you go the better because you get less esters and a much cleaner beer. Use a refrigerator 1 time with a digital controller and you will be convinced!

Not being sanitary on the cold side.

Not aging long enough.

 

[CATFISHER74]

Should you cold crash if you bottle or just for kegging since the beer will be in the bottles for 3 weeks before drinking anyway?

 

[Malticulous]

I've been adding a small amount of t-58 to batches that I think may have cleared to much. That yeast jumps the gun and goes like a bat out of hell. I see why some commercial brewers bottle condition with it. The down side of it is although it eats up the primming sugar in a matter of days it takes well over a week to flocculate clear again.

 

[McKBrew]

Lately I have been going for a 4-5 week brew to glass turnaround on my beers. I like to have all taps full and with my limited brew sesssions the only way to achieve this is to get things on tap sooner.

Current process:

1. Keep beer in the primary for two weeks (Typically it's done by this point).
2. Turn down the temperature control and let the beer rest at around 35 degrees for 2-3 days.
3. Keg and let carbonate at normal pressure for 10-12 days
4. Start drinking.

Basically if you look at it, I'm using a 2 week primary/2 week secondary method.

I fully understand that longer aging typically results in even better beer, but if I'm enjoying it at a month and the few people I share it with are enjoying it as well, then I might as well be drinking it. Normally it's just me anyway, and depending on the beer it can take me about 1-3 months to drain a keg, I still can enjoy the flavor changes over time.

 

[brainy77]

+1 on both crash cooling and gelatine adding. I used only primary fermenter and fermented for about 10 days at 17-18°C (63-65°F) then added a tablespoon of gelatine, crashed it to 4-5°C (40-41°F) and let it sit for about a week. Since I bottle, I racked it to a bucket, added 135g (4,75oz) of cane sugar and a tablespoon of gelatine again and bottled. After another week of priming in the bottles at (17-18°C) I've got the most clear and estery free (got sick of the floral aroma in my beers, even IPAs) beer (oatmeal stout) I've ever had. My batch was 20L (5.3 gal). I think what made a difference was also the fact that I let the beer ferment at 17-18°C after priming not the room temperature as suggested by some guys around here. I partialy ruined my lager by priming it at room temps. PRIME AT SUGGESTED FERMENTING TEMPERATURES, PREFERABLY IN THEIR LOWER RANGE. The preparation of the gelatine is the easiest thing and it helps a lot. Just add a tablespoon of gelatine (not the agar based stuff but true gelatine) into a half of cup water and let it sit for ten minutes. Then slowly!!! raise the temperature until the particles dissolve completely. NEVER EXCEED 60°C (140°F) or you will ruin the stuff. Then cool in a cold water bath (no need for extreme cooling just so that you can feel by hand that it is just a bit warm or so) and pour it into fermenter, priming bucket or keg and you are done. Beer is drinkable after 3 1/2 weeks after it first touched fermenter. :rockin:

 

[dfohio]

My beer is still tongue numbingly bitter after 3 weeks in the primary. It usually takes another 3 weeks in the bottle to settle down. How are you getting these fast turn arounds? Do I just have a low threshold for bitterness or am I not doing something I should be doing.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

dfohio...

This thread was intended to answer your question...I'm not sure what else to tell you.

 

[dfohio]

dfohio...

This thread was intended to answer your question...I'm not sure what else to tell you.

What was meant by my comment was that I already do the things you have talked about in the thread...I believe my question was relevant and unanswered.



If you would like to pm me some help that would be fine that way you can delete these posts to keep the thread clean.