AG vs. Partial mash question

[je52rm]

so ive definitely caught the "homebrewers" bug and really have a fun time learning new brewing techniques/procedures. Ive done 5 partial mash batches and I am now interested in taking it to the next level by going all grain with an infusion mash setup. I already own a 7.5 gallon "turkey fryer" with propane burner (boil kettle) and also already own a 10 gallon igloo cooler (gonna make a manifold for MLT) so i figured i was already half way there for AG equipment. The owners/operators of my LHBS INSIST that for the average homebrewer that i should just stick to extract and/or partial mash. They basicall say im wasting my time by going all grain that the beer isnt gonna be any better than partial mash and that the amount of work isnt worth it. ??????

question:

1)Obviously DME & LME are more expensive than grain so i'm wondering (I hate to even think this) are they possibly telling me this so i keep buying the more expensive products from their store (profitability)?


2)How much truth is there to "you are not gonna make better beer using all grain (infusion mash) vs. partial mash"?

 

[Pie_Man]

Seems weird, I too am just getting into AG and I'm excited about it. My HBS encourages AG. All grain definitely gives you more choices and more control.

 

[brettwasbtd]

If you don't have control of your fermentation temperature then it doesn't matter how you make your wort. Now, it really doesn't matter, this is YOUR hobby. Do what gives you the most enjoyment.

All grain is cheaper and gives you a far greater control on the fermentability and character of your beers. I say go for it! But like i mentioned first, make sure you have you temp control taken care of

 

[je52rm]

well i live with a fat person and the damn A/C is constantly glued at 68-69 degrees ( i hate it! hahahaha) all year around and i have a small half bathroom that doesnt ever get used and keeps really cool so i can definitely keep temp controlled. I just hate the really negative feedback i get from my LHBS when i have so much newly found passion for homebrewing killer beer

 

[Pie_Man]

You still may want temperature control as your beer will be 5-10 degrees higher than the ambient temperature.

I still say to go AG if that's what you want.

 

[je52rm]

whats your thoughts about infusion mash vs. step mash? i'm gonna go infusion since the malts we get from our LHBS are highly or fully modified

 

[The_Professor]

That is kinda odd for the LHBS to tell you that. Pretty much your choice not theirs.

 

[je52rm]

That is kinda odd for the LHBS to tell you that. Pretty much your choice not theirs.

yeah by no means am i trying to "make them look bad" or give them a bad name Its just discouraging that its so hard to get positive feedback from them. You ever watch seinfeld and see the "SOUP NAZI"? Thats what im dealing with more or less hahahahaha. thanks guys for all the help!

 

[kh54s10]

You can make beer that is just as good using extract. All grain gives you more control/options on ingredients.

I started with extract, did a few partial mashes and made a couple of my own recipes. I then proceeded on to AG. It takes quite a bit more time but brewing is a lot of fun. In a short of time situation or if it gets too cold this winter I may do extract.

It is interesting that your LHBS advises you to stick with extract. I guess they don't think they will sell you any equipment.

AG is not too difficult. There are more things you need to do and pay attention to.
As to process I looked at the options and decided to batch sparge. I use Brewheads.com - Batch Sparge Calculator for my volumes and temperatures.

I also say that if you want to go the AG route do it. Don't listen to your LHBS dudes. You can still get supplies from them if you want. I think they will get over it if you do.

 

[etrain666]

Sure, it may be all in my head, but ever since I converted to AG my beers have improved greatly. I found that extract always produced a similar "tang" in all my beers, regardless of style. Of course, this could be brewer's error more than anything else.

 

[zeekage]

Sure, it may be all in my head, but ever since I converted to AG my beers have improved greatly. I found that extract always produced a similar "tang" in all my beers, regardless of style. Of course, this could be brewer's error more than anything else.

I agree with this. My first AG batch tastes better overall than my other extract/PM batches. Granted I didn't brew the same beer but overall i feel it tastes higher quality if that makes sense. My other brews have been very good so it's not that they were bad or tasted off really, i jsut like the taste/mouthfeel of this one much better. It could be the recipe itself, or it could be the fact that it's AG. Anyway, if you want to do AG then do it. Don't let our LHBS discourage you. Maybe they make a higher profit margin off of extract than grain and know if you go AG you may end up buying bulk grain in group buys who knows. That'd be one motivation for them steering you to Extract/PM.

 

[brewmadness]

Suggestion #1: Find a new HBS. Or buy online. You will read of people buying online all over this forum. I never have, but I can get supplies for the same price or cheaper at a local shop with no shipping charges and they are great people to work with. (shout out to O'Connor Homebrew Supply in Grand Rapids, Mich.)
Suggestion #2: If you feel you're ready and want to give it a go, go for it. It's your hobby. Sounds like you are just about have all the equipment you need anyway. Give it a try. It's a little more work and takes more time but, but heck, it's a hobby to enjoy not a race! I did 2 extract batches before I went to all grain. Great beer has been made and I enjoy the labor involved.
Go for it!! Happy brewing!!

 

[je52rm]

thanks for all the support guys! i'm def gonna go AG next batch. Im thinking about going with an infusion mash setup. Any Pros and Cons with an infusion mash setup vs. step mash/batch sparge?

 

[cosmo]

I see you are from Orlando so I know the shop. I used to go there a lot but now buy almost exclusively online. They are very short with their customers and rarely give good advice. The prices are good, but they don't always have what I want. It's just easier to order online. Shipping is about the same as what it costs me in gas to drive 30 minutes each way to the store and I save on sales tax too. Brewmasters Warehouse gets my orders to me in just a couple days and their selection and quality is much better. I get my advice on the forums and from books.

 

[je52rm]

I see you are from Orlando so I know the shop. I used to go there a lot but now buy almost exclusively online. They are very short with their customers and rarely give good advice. The prices are good, but they don't always have what I want. It's just easier to order online. Shipping is about the same as what it costs me in gas to drive 30 minutes each way to the store and I save on sales tax too. Brewmasters Warehouse gets my orders to me in just a couple days and their selection and quality is much better. I get my advice on the forums and from books.

Ok thats good to know thank you very much. Yeah you hit the head on the nail with "very short" to their customers. Im starting to question their advice as well.

 

[brew2enjoy]

Go all grain and never look back! I just brewed my first AG about 3 weeks ago and it was a blast. I have already bought ingredients for another beer (much cheaper too) and am looking into buying bulk grains/hops for future brews. If you think you will be into the hobby for a long time, it's a worth-while invenstment.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

Ok thats good to know thank you very much. Yeah you hit the head on the nail with "very short" to their customers. Im starting to question their advice as well.

Its possible that the proprietor has little to no experience with AG and doesn't want to admit that if you start asking questions. I had a relative that worked part time at a fish market. I overheard a customer asking if they could cook lobster in a microwave. Answer was an unequivical "NO". The real answer is, you can if you peirce the shell to keep it from exploding. The relative answered as noted because he does not own a microwave, doesn't cook with one and didn't want to say " I dont know"

 

[je52rm]

Its possible that the proprietor has little to no experience with AG and doesn't want to admit that if you start asking questions. I had a relative that worked part time at a fish market. I overheard a customer asking if they could cook lobster in a microwave. Answer was an unequivical "NO". The real answer is, you can if you peirce the shell to keep it from exploding. The relative answered as noted because he does not own a microwave, doesn't cook with one and didn't want to say " I dont know"

Normally i would question the same thing but this guy has literally 50+ first place blue ribbons from winning brewing competitions hung across the front of the store. I totally understand what you are saying though and is usually totally true. Employers nowadays dont wanna pay the money to hire experienced true and tried people cause it costs them too much so they hire people with just enough knoweledge to get by but nothing more. Minimum wage brings minimum effort! sucks cause our standards have gone out the window

 

[HomebrewMTB]

If you're going through the the time and effort to do a mash, you might as well mash all of it. The only difference is equipment size and process control for your efficiencies. Step up, go big, and go all in for all-grain!

 

[2ha]

+1 for go big. It is more work than extract but 10 gals is not much more time or work than 5 gals.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Ok thats good to know thank you very much. Yeah you hit the head on the nail with "very short" to their customers. Im starting to question their advice as well.

Any brewer that tells you you're wasting your time going to AG should not be listened to about anything brewing-related.

Yes, people can make excellent beers with extract. But extract brewers will never have the same amount of control over the taste of their beers with only extract brewing. That's just a fact.

It sounds like the LHBS in question doesn't have a big selection of grains, so that may be why they're trying to steer you away from doing AG.

Single temp infusion / 2-stage batch sparges have served my brew partner and I well these past seven or so batches. I don't ever see the need to try fly sparging. I might look into decoction someday.

In my opinion, owning your own grain mill is just as important as owning a mash/lauter tun. I don't think I'd do AG without it.

 

[hmmmbeer]

I just went to AG myself and this is what I've found. First, because your doing the work for the fermentables (rather then just pouring the extract in) it is MUCH cheaper (and even cheaper for you with most of what you need already taken care of). You have all the control on your beer's outcome. I also found that the beer taste better, I think its the simple fact of it being as fresh and controled as you can get.
I went with the infusion mash because of the grains I get. Since going AG (two 5 gal batches and my last one was 10 (saturday) I have not stopped thinking about how to brew more, how to brew better, how to grow my own hops as well as farm my own yeast... I thought I had the bug bad before... I have it like no other now! I even built a new brew rig for do 10 gal batches (in my photos on here)! Happy brewing!

 

[Clementine]

I have two thoughts on this subject having gone all grain in the last year I would go back to extract if you paid me too. All Grain makes better beer with more control than extract without a doubt and when I switched to all grain I lived in hawaii and the extract there always seem to give me problems.

That said as a new brewer if you don't have the basics (equipment, skills and knowledge) such as fermentation temp control, good yeast management and sanitation etc then the added distraction of all grain can lead the new brewer to not focus on the basics. Also most of us brewers are restricted to a budget by SWMBO ans so we need to spend money where it has the most impact on our brews. I rate the most important factors in beer making as:

1) sanitation
2) temp control
3) yeast management (numbers, health, oxygenation)


However if you have fermentation temp control, know about yeast starters and have your basic processes down then there is no reason to not go all grain.

Clem