AG version of extract needs help

[TechyDork]

I tried asking this in the recipe section, but didn't get a response

So my brew buddy and I have a beer that is kinda of our house beer. We brewed it for years as an extract beer and it is great. We call it the Angus Rolled Scottish, because when we first brewed it we rolled the carboy around on the floor to oxygenate the wort after pitching. That was almost 10 years ago.

We have been trying to brew this as an AG brew in 10g batches vs the 5g extract with steeping grains we started it with.

The extract has a very malty backbone with a nice very slight bitter finish and nice mild hop flavor from the chinook hops with a copper/reddish color to it.

The AG is lacking the same malt backbone, and the color is a bit lighter. The bitterness and hop flavor are pretty close to the AG version.

I did some research to try and determine how the Briess Amber extract is made and modified the AG grain bill of our most recent brew to attempt to mimic what i found.

Last week we brewed this up as both extract and AG to compare the two. Both are 10g batches and the extract was full boil with the extract and rice syrup solids added for the full 60 min boil.

I was thinking for the next AG batch to reduce the Pale and increase the munich malt? I am thinking the might help the malt to come through more.

Maybe use Marris Otter in place of the Pale?

Or even trying to do a longer boil to try and caramelize the wort a bit more to mimic the results of boiling the amber extract for the full 60 minute boil?

Here are the recipes. Both brewed on our E-HERMS system.

10g Extract

OG 1.055
FG 1.013
IBU - 28
Color 14 SRM (though it appears darker more like an amber)

16 lb Amber LME (boiled for the full 60)
2 lb Rice Syrup Solids (boiled for the full 60)
8 oz Victory
1 lb Honey Malt
1 lb Caramunich Malt

4 oz Hallertaurer (2.5% AA) - 60 min 16 IBU
1 oz Chinook (12.2% AA) - 20 min 12 IBU
1 oz Chinook (12.2% AA) - 0 min 0 IBU

WLP001 - Cali Ale yeast (Fermented at 65f)

10g AG

OG 1.055
FG 1.013
IBU 30
SRM 14

10lb Pale US 2row
7lb Munich 20L
1lb Caramunich
1lb Honey Malt
8oz Victory
8oz C60
2lb Rice Syrup Solids (boiled for the full 60)

4oz Hallertauer (2.5% AA) 60 min 17 IBU
1oz Chinook (12.5% AA) 20 min 13 IBU
1oz Chinook (12.5% AA) 0 min 0 IBU

WLP001 - Cali Ale (Fermented at 65f)

Mashed at 154 for 60 min
Mashed out at 168 for 10 min
fly sparged to boil volume
boiled for 60 min and hit all numbers.

We would love to get your thoughts on how to make the AG version have the same malty backbone that the extract version has.

 

[JohnSand]

I'm not sure. But I often find that extract does not attenuate as far as AG. I thought maybe I was scorching it, but a friend said the same. Are your final gravities the same?

 

[BigEd]

I tried asking this in the recipe section, but didn't get a response

So my brew buddy and I have a beer that is kinda of our house beer. We brewed it for years as an extract beer and it is great. We call it the Angus Rolled Scottish, because when we first brewed it we rolled the carboy around on the floor to oxygenate the wort after pitching. That was almost 10 years ago.

We have been trying to brew this as an AG brew in 10g batches vs the 5g extract with steeping grains we started it with.

The extract has a very malty backbone with a nice very slight bitter finish and nice mild hop flavor from the chinook hops with a copper/reddish color to it.

The AG is lacking the same malt backbone, and the color is a bit lighter. The bitterness and hop flavor are pretty close to the AG version.

I did some research to try and determine how the Briess Amber extract is made and modified the AG grain bill of our most recent brew to attempt to mimic what i found.

Last week we brewed this up as both extract and AG to compare the two. Both are 10g batches and the extract was full boil with the extract and rice syrup solids added for the full 60 min boil.

I was thinking for the next AG batch to reduce the Pale and increase the munich malt? I am thinking the might help the malt to come through more.

Maybe use Marris Otter in place of the Pale?

Or even trying to do a longer boil to try and caramelize the wort a bit more to mimic the results of boiling the amber extract for the full 60 minute boil?

Here are the recipes. Both brewed on our E-HERMS system.

10g Extract

OG 1.055
FG 1.013
IBU - 28
Color 14 SRM (though it appears darker more like an amber)

16 lb Amber LME (boiled for the full 60)
2 lb Rice Syrup Solids (boiled for the full 60)
8 oz Victory
1 lb Honey Malt
1 lb Caramunich Malt

4 oz Hallertaurer (2.5% AA) - 60 min 16 IBU
1 oz Chinook (12.2% AA) - 20 min 12 IBU
1 oz Chinook (12.2% AA) - 0 min 0 IBU

WLP001 - Cali Ale yeast (Fermented at 65f)

10g AG

OG 1.055
FG 1.013
IBU 30
SRM 14

10lb Pale US 2row
7lb Munich 20L
1lb Caramunich
1lb Honey Malt
8oz Victory
8oz C60
2lb Rice Syrup Solids (boiled for the full 60)

4oz Hallertauer (2.5% AA) 60 min 17 IBU
1oz Chinook (12.5% AA) 20 min 13 IBU
1oz Chinook (12.5% AA) 0 min 0 IBU

WLP001 - Cali Ale (Fermented at 65f)

Mashed at 154 for 60 min
Mashed out at 168 for 10 min
fly sparged to boil volume
boiled for 60 min and hit all numbers.

We would love to get your thoughts on how to make the AG version have the same malty backbone that the extract version has.

Please bear with me here as I've had a few beers tonight. Trying to replicate an extract beer with all grain can be tricky. Understand that extracts are made for brewers who for whatever reason cannot brew an all grain beer. So in essence malt extracts are intended to substitute for whole malts. Forgive the analogy but extracts are the Betty Crocker cake mix intended to take the place of a "scratch" recipe.

That said, malt extracts have their own characteristics. Because of the additional processing during their manufacturing, extracts will tend to have a higher level of residual sugars in the finished beer compared with all grain. This effect is compounded by partial boil brewing, the process by which the typical homebrew extract beer is made. I understand your latest effort was a full boil which minimizes that effect but a part of it will linger. As for the color, extract beers will almost always be darker than similar all grain beers which is again because of the processing the extract. Because of this extract beer will often leave a higher level of unfermented long sugars in the finished beer.

So for your all grain recipe I would consider some of the following modifications. Get rid of the rice syrup solids. Those are typically used to add OG and lessen the previously described effects of using malt extracts. In an all grain beer they are just lightening the beer and getting in the way. Unless there is some unusual reason to do so, skip the addition of extracts in an all grain beer.

Re the main ingredients, you are brewing a UK style beer and should be using UK malts IMO. The extract beer was made with domestic extract but the sweet-finishing tendency of extract perhaps made up for that in your early beers. My prejudices will now come to the forefront, domestic (North American) pales malts make lousy UK style ales. They lack the body, richness, and sweetness you want in those styles. You mentioned using Maris-Otter, that would be fine although any generic UK pale malt would be a big improvement. Golden Promise is a Scottish barley and if you can find that it might ever be better than MO for this style. You can also lose that crappy domestic Munich malt. Using a larger percentage of a UK pale malt combined with a judicious quantity of UK crystal malt would be a much better idea.

So here's an off the cuff starting point for the grain bill based on a 10 gallon batch:

19 lbs Golden Promise pale malt
2 lbs UK crystal 77L
.5 lb UK aromatic malt

The hops you can leave alone if you like them. I'd also suggest doing a 90 minute boil.

 

[TechyDork]

Please bear with me here as I've had a few beers tonight. Trying to replicate an extract beer with all grain can be tricky. Understand that extracts are made for brewers who for whatever reason cannot brew an all grain beer. So in essence malt extracts are intended to substitute for whole malts. Forgive the analogy but extracts are the Betty Crocker cake mix intended to take the place of a "scratch" recipe.

That said, malt extracts have their own characteristics. Because of the additional processing during their manufacturing, extracts will tend to have a higher level of residual sugars in the finished beer compared with all grain. This effect is compounded by partial boil brewing, the process by which the typical homebrew extract beer is made. I understand your latest effort was a full boil which minimizes that effect but a part of it will linger. As for the color, extract beers will almost always be darker than similar all grain beers which is again because of the processing the extract. Because of this extract beer will often leave a higher level of unfermented long sugars in the finished beer.

So for your all grain recipe I would consider some of the following modifications. Get rid of the rice syrup solids. Those are typically used to add OG and lessen the previously described effects of using malt extracts. In an all grain beer they are just lightening the beer and getting in the way. Unless there is some unusual reason to do so, skip the addition of extracts in an all grain beer.

Re the main ingredients, you are brewing a UK style beer and should be using UK malts IMO. The extract beer was made with domestic extract but the sweet-finishing tendency of extract perhaps made up for that in your early beers. My prejudices will now come to the forefront, domestic (North American) pales malts make lousy UK style ales. They lack the body, richness, and sweetness you want in those styles. You mentioned using Maris-Otter, that would be fine although any generic UK pale malt would be a big improvement. Golden Promise is a Scottish barley and if you can find that it might ever be better than MO for this style. You can also lose that crappy domestic Munich malt. Using a larger percentage of a UK pale malt combined with a judicious quantity of UK crystal malt would be a much better idea.

So here's an off the cuff starting point for the grain bill based on a 10 gallon batch:

19 lbs Golden Promise pale malt
2 lbs UK crystal 77L
.5 lb UK aromatic malt

The hops you can leave alone if you like them. I'd also suggest doing a 90 minute boil.

I agree with your idea of using UK malts vs US malts to get this more on track with our expectations. I can get GP malt from our LHBS and I might give that a try over MO for the next version of this. I should also be able to find a UK Crystal malt to use in place of the C60.

I do think we will give the 90 min boil a shot and see if that further helps bring out the malt in the finished beer. At least in my head that would mimic boiling the extract for a full 60 minutes.

As for the rice syrup solids, I do see where you are coming from in sugesting to leave them out. We have done that in a couple versions of this and noticed there was a difference in the final beer. I don't know if boiling them for 60 minutes adds something to the beer, or if it is just in our head.

 

[shadar]

The color of extract beers will generally always be darker. They also tend to taste slightly more.... rich. That could be perceived as a malt backbone. It's all from the processing of the extracts. Some people will prefer that flavor they add, some will not. It definitely wouldn't be as good in say a Pilsner but in a Belgian Quad or Imperial Stout might actually be preferable to more people.

Another thing is that steeping grains vs mashing them can result in slightly different flavor profiles. So you have to account for this potentially when trying to clone a recipe.

I agree with most of the advice you've been given.. but I'd say instead of trying to replicate the exact beer you had before try a different method. Think about what the beer you're drinking is lacking to make it a world class beer and fix that.

If it needs more malt backbone then use some more flavorful malts. MO, Munich, or Vienna instead of a bit of the pale malts.

If it needs more sweetness and caramel type flavors, up the caramel malts a bit or change to a darker caramel malt (this will also darken the beer like you wanted).

If it is too heavy bodied, add more sugars. If it is too light bodied then reduce the use of sugars. Alternatively, change your mash temperature as well. Both can impact this to some degree.

I do also think that on these forums people WAY over-think things. Keep it simple and you'll do well usually. I personally would swap for MO (or at least some) and slightly tweak my caramel malts (slightly darker and/or slightly more).

 

[dwhite60]

You could be making one gallon test batches. Probably tune your recipe faster as you will have to brew more often.

Five gallon test batches are a lot of ingredients for unknown results.

Once you find the right ingredients just step it up.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[TechyDork]

The color of extract beers will generally always be darker. They also tend to taste slightly more.... rich. That could be perceived as a malt backbone. It's all from the processing of the extracts. Some people will prefer that flavor they add, some will not. It definitely wouldn't be as good in say a Pilsner but in a Belgian Quad or Imperial Stout might actually be preferable to more people.

Another thing is that steeping grains vs mashing them can result in slightly different flavor profiles. So you have to account for this potentially when trying to clone a recipe.

I agree with most of the advice you've been given.. but I'd say instead of trying to replicate the exact beer you had before try a different method. Think about what the beer you're drinking is lacking to make it a world class beer and fix that.

If it needs more malt backbone then use some more flavorful malts. MO, Munich, or Vienna instead of a bit of the pale malts.

If it needs more sweetness and caramel type flavors, up the caramel malts a bit or change to a darker caramel malt (this will also darken the beer like you wanted).

If it is too heavy bodied, add more sugars. If it is too light bodied then reduce the use of sugars. Alternatively, change your mash temperature as well. Both can impact this to some degree.

I do also think that on these forums people WAY over-think things. Keep it simple and you'll do well usually. I personally would swap for MO (or at least some) and slightly tweak my caramel malts (slightly darker and/or slightly more).

I agree that we do tend to overthink things when it comes to this hobby, at least i know it do.

I think we are going to try and use a UK malt for the base, and maybe a darker crystal to see if that gets us closer to what we want.

I also agree that it may not be possible to exactly replicate the extract brew doing AG, but I am confident we can get it closer than we are now.

You could be making one gallon test batches. Probably tune your recipe faster as you will have to brew more often.

Five gallon test batches are a lot of ingredients for unknown results.

Once you find the right ingredients just step it up.

All the Best,
D. White

I have thought of doing smaller batch sizes, but with our current equipment we can't go much smaller than a 5g batch. We actually do 10g batches and split it between the two of us. I have started planning a new E-BIAB system to allow me to do 2-3G batches for testing out new recipes easier and quicker.