Aeration Risks? - no line filter

[davarm]

I have an aeration set-up from Northern Brewer; the standard fish pump/stone. The last time I brewed, I inadvertantly got some water in my line filter and couldn't pass any air through it. I removed the line filter and ran a single hose directly from the pump to the stone. The amount of bubbles that came out of the stone were significantly more than the previous brews I've done with the line filter in place. Best I can tell, my brew was not infected.

For future brews, what is the actual risk of just leaving the line filter off during aeration? Does anybody else do this? I sure feel that I'm getting a lot more oxygen in my wort without the filter.

 

[7Enigma]

The risk is real. Mold spores are constantly in the air, as is bacteria and other pathogens. The competition of yeast helps to avoid most of these, but I would not risk it. The airline filter WILL slow airflow because its doing its job. Get a new filter as once they get wet they should not be used (they can then grow mold directly on the filter).

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

Ummm, yeah, I would say that is a sub optimal set up..... get a filter before you do another batch. No reason to risk $25-30 of ingredients over a $2 filter.

 

[conpewter]

I ran an air pump to just aerate my wort the first batch I did. It got a bad bad infection (only one so far...). Now a lot of my practices were not the best, but that was the worst idea I had. I imagine it was something from the air or even just dust from the pump getting into the wort.

 

[FSR402]

I don't see any problem with running it without a filter. If the hose and pump are clean. I mean don't drop the pump in the dirt and keep the hose clean and sanitized before use.
The way I see it is that you're pumping the same air in there that you would be doing if you just did the shake the hell out of it way. The air does not become clean once it's in the carboy, it's the same air that's on the outside.

 

[davarm]

So who sells a line filter that doesn't charge more for shipping than for the actual item? I hate to pay $7 shipping for something that costs $5 or less and weighs an ounce.

 

[7Enigma]

I don't see any problem with running it without a filter. If the hose and pump are clean. I mean don't drop the pump in the dirt and keep the hose clean and sanitized before use.
The way I see it is that you're pumping the same air in there that you would be doing if you just did the shake the hell out of it way. The air does not become clean once it's in the carboy, it's the same air that's on the outside.

Not even close. You've got X amount of air in the carboy that SHOULD be sterile if properly prepared. Pouring at/near boiling water into the carboy/bucket will create a steam that is at/near boiling. This will kill anything in the air as moist heat is far more effective than dry heat. Besides this point:

Shaking a carboy around to oxygenate the wort is vastly different that pumping air into it. When shaking, very little air is being introduced into the container, you are just mixing the air inside of the container with the wort. The chance of contamination is very low.

Now PUMPING air INTO the wort is a whole different story. You are actively displacing volume IN the container, meaning that for every ounce of air you pump in an ounce of air has to come out. Over the course of the 30min-60min (seems to be the normal amount of time I've gathered on here) you are exchanging the volume of air in the container probably several times over. This would be like spreading your wort out on baking sheets.....and hoping it stays uncontaminated.


Get the filter, or don't use an air pump (shake it). You are seriously risking contamination..probably more than pretty much any other method of contamination you could imagine (minus not washing equipment at all).

 

[7Enigma]

So who sells a line filter that doesn't charge more for shipping than for the actual item? I hate to pay $7 shipping for something that costs $5 or less and weighs an ounce.

Just get a new pump. Probably under $10-15 from a PetSmart/Walmart. Just make sure it has a filter obviously. Or go to a Home Depot/Lowes and find an inline air filter and put it AFTER the pump. I would still recommend a new pump because its very likely mold/bacteria is living inside since it got wet.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I don't see any problem with running it without a filter. If the hose and pump are clean. I mean don't drop the pump in the dirt and keep the hose clean and sanitized before use.
The way I see it is that you're pumping the same air in there that you would be doing if you just did the shake the hell out of it way. The air does not become clean once it's in the carboy, it's the same air that's on the outside.

You got to think of it exposure wise. Shaking a carboy, you have what, a gallon of head space? say 1 cubic foot of air and all the goodies that come with it. When using a pump, you are using outside air and pumping it directly into your wort, say over 30-45 minutes you are pumping in 30-40cubic feet of air. Without that in line filter not only are you pumping in that air, but all the dust, spores, and bacteria that goes with it. Your yeast may be able to out compete a few organisms, but downright infusing them with outside critters is not a good idea.

 

[davarm]

The only reason my filter got wet is because i had soaked the tubing in chlorine water, washed it out, but neglected to pump all of the water out of the hose before inserting the filter on the end. When I started the pump, the small amount of water left in the hose was pushed into the filter, and it basically created a plug.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

FYI

You shouldnt need to sanitize anything prefilter, thats what the filter is for.

 

[WBC]

You guys that use CO2 without a filter are at risk too. I went to an extreme on my CO2 system. All my CO2 is filtered before going to my sanitized CO2 manifold and lines that were assembled and flushed with sanitizer and then hot air through a hepa filter to dry the interior of the manifold and tubing before use.

 

[GinKings]

You've got X amount of air in the carboy that SHOULD be sterile if properly prepared. Pouring at/near boiling water into the carboy/bucket will create a steam that is at/near boiling. This will kill anything in the air as moist heat is far more effective than dry heat.



I don't think it's a good idea to "pour at/near boiling water into a carboy". That sounds quite dangerous. Pouring boiling water into a bucket may(?) sterilize the air, but how do you keep that air in the bucket when you remove the water and add your wort?

 

[FSR402]

Not even close. You've got X amount of air in the carboy that SHOULD be sterile if properly prepared. Pouring at/near boiling water into the carboy/bucket will create a steam that is at/near boiling. This will kill anything in the air as moist heat is far more effective than dry heat. Besides this point:

WOW I want to brew with you when you add the near boiling wort to your carboy. I LOVE to see things explode. Reading this makes my head spin. The air in the carboy/bucket is the same as the air on the outside of the carboy/bucket. Plus the last time I checked near boiling water or wort does not produce steam, you have to actually be boiling it to make steam also steam does not sanitize the instant it touches something. It takes time not a lot but still takes time.

Shaking a carboy around to oxygenate the wort is vastly different that pumping air into it. When shaking, very little air is being introduced into the container, you are just mixing the air inside of the container with the wort. The chance of contamination is very low.

Then you're doing the shaking wrong. When I shaked my carboy/bucket I would cover the hole (where the airlock goes) shake the hell out of it and then unplug the hole. I can hear the air suck into the carboy/bucket. I repeat this 3-4 times.

Now PUMPING air INTO the wort is a whole different story. You are actively displacing volume IN the container, meaning that for every ounce of air you pump in an ounce of air has to come out. Over the course of the 30min-60min (seems to be the normal amount of time I've gathered on here) you are exchanging the volume of air in the container probably several times over. This would be like spreading your wort out on baking sheets.....and hoping it stays uncontaminated.

Now this one made me laugh. If you are displacing the air in the carboy/bucket that would mean that no air is staying in the wort. Plus I'm guessing that you have never used one of those little pumps. They move less air then what I do breathing now ad a defuser stone to the mix (restricts the hell out of it) and now you are talking very little air. You act like he's hooking a hose from a 150psi air compressor to it. Come on now.. There has been studies that proved that shaking the carboy/bucket for a few minutes can induce more air into the wort then the litle pump and stone can in 30 minutes.

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

hey now, no reason to go off here. You made some good points, and maybe not everything that was orriginaly said was correct, but there is no reason to be harsh about it.

 

[FSR402]

hey now, no reason to go off here. You made some good points, and maybe not everything that was orriginaly said was correct, but there is no reason to be harsh about it.

I didn't think I was being harsh, just honest with what I thought. Or is it the color? I could change that.

 

[7Enigma]

You've got X amount of air in the carboy that SHOULD be sterile if properly prepared. Pouring at/near boiling water into the carboy/bucket will create a steam that is at/near boiling. This will kill anything in the air as moist heat is far more effective than dry heat.



I don't think it's a good idea to "pour at/near boiling water into a carboy". That sounds quite dangerous. Pouring boiling water into a bucket may(?) sterilize the air, but how do you keep that air in the bucket when you remove the water and add your wort?

I don't remove the water. That is the water boiled prior to boiling the wort (to get to the 5 gallon mark). It goes in the container through a sterilized funnel. There will be some introduction of air as the water cools (air inside the container will contract). This is unavoidable without having a filter on the mouth of the container which I'm willing to accept the risk of the small amount of air (we can't easily be completely sterile).

My primary is a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. Some very slight care needs to be taken when adding the first bit of water when using glass (plastic doesn't matter). Glass is much better at expanding than contracting and so as long as you add the water very slowly for the first 20 seconds or so (to warm the base of the bottle) there is little chance of breaking. Where most glass is damaged is rapid cooling (for instance pouring ice water into hot glass).

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I didn't think I was being harsh, just honest with what I thought. Or is it the color? I could change that.

It might have been the color mixed with a couple comments, just seemed a little strong on first read. If thats not what was ment, no worries man

BTW, do you have links showing those aeration studies? I would be interested in reading those.

 

[7Enigma]

WOW I want to brew with you when you add the near boiling wort to your carboy. I LOVE to see things explode. Reading this makes my head spin. The air in the carboy/bucket is the same as the air on the outside of the carboy/bucket. Plus the last time I checked near boiling water or wort does not produce steam, you have to actually be boiling it to make steam also steam does not sanitize the instant it touches something. It takes time not a lot but still takes time.

Near boiling wort should never be added to the container from my reading. You want to crash out undesirables by some rapid cooling method. The wort that goes into my carboy is <80F. The boiling water is added at the beginning while the wort is heating up (so it has time to cool to RT). Things do not explode unless they are put under pressure or flammable/explosive. Unless you put a cap on the carboy it will not explode. To prevent longterm stress (years) the first bit of water should be added slowly to warm the base but after that you can go wild with your water addition.

Water vapor/steam doesn't require anywhere close to boiling to be produced. Put a pot on the stove with water and stick a top on. You'll see moisture form very quickly, even while the water is still tepid. This is water vapor and when heated to at/near boiling does a very good job at killing things. Not in seconds, but the water stays VERY hot for quite a while in either glass or plastic. More than enough time to not be concerned about contamination. If really concerned about contamination you could put a stopper on the top of the carboy with a sterilized hose coming out. Kink the hose to prevent air from going in as the water vapor condenses. When your wort is cool you could put the end of the hose in the wort and release the kink. The vacuum will draw the wort into the carboy until the pressures are equal. Then you can remove the stopper and pour the rest of the wort in. Just not worth it IMO to get this anal since there are other places where we have a chance of slight contamination (racking without a closed system, bottling, etc.).

Then you're doing the shaking wrong. When I shaked my carboy/bucket I would cover the hole (where the airlock goes) shake the hell out of it and then unplug the hole. I can hear the air suck into the carboy/bucket. I repeat this 3-4 times.

That sucking sound means your wort is not cooled properly prior to adding to the container. What is happening is the water vapor is condensing in the air space creating a vacuum. When you release the plug the vacuum causes air to rush into the container. If the wort is cooled to RT, there will be no vacuum created, and thus, no need to repeat anything.

Now this one made me laugh. If you are displacing the air in the carboy/bucket that would mean that no air is staying in the wort. Plus I'm guessing that you have never used one of those little pumps. They move less air then what I do breathing now ad a defuser stone to the mix (restricts the hell out of it) and now you are talking very little air. You act like he's hooking a hose from a 150psi air compressor to it. Come on now.. There has been studies that proved that shaking the carboy/bucket for a few minutes can induce more air into the wort then the litle pump and stone can in 30 minutes.

My primary hobby is in the aquarium trade. I'm well aware of the capabilities of the air pumps. Over 30-60 minutes that small amount of air adds up, even with a restrictor inline (filter/diffuser). You are aerating the wort, the purpose of this is to dissolve the atmospheric oxygen back into solution. The process of boiling releases much of the dissolved gases so that the amount of oxygen in the wort is less than the air around it. Once this amount of oxygen is dissolved back into the wort they are at equilibrium (close to equal amounts). No matter how much you add after this point, only the oxygen being consumed by the yeast is being replenished, the rest is just going right back out the mouth of the container (you can't dissolve more oxygen in the wort than is in the air when using air). This whole time the other 79% of air that is not oxygen is being forced into the liquid, and bubbling right out the top. This is a dangerous route because you are introducing potential contaminants directly INTO the wort. So with ease I can say that less than 1% of the air you are pumping in is going to stay in the wort. The rest is going to just bubble right to the surface, and that air is going to push the air above it, so on and so on, until it reaches the mouth of the container.


HTH, and no worries...I've got a thick skin, and enjoy debate.

 

[7Enigma]

Double post.

 

[FSR402]

It might have been the color mixed with a couple comments, just seemed a little strong on first read. If thats not what was ment, no worries man

BTW, do you have links showing those aeration studies? I would be interested in reading those.

Ok my memery was a little off.
But not to bad.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

 

[7Enigma]

Ok my memery was a little off.
But not to bad.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_oxygenation.cfm

See that 8% for both shaking and by air pump/stone? That is the saturation level of oxygen in water/wort. You can't go above it without supplying pure oxygen, and unless you cap the container or continue to add oxygen the level will drop back down to under 8% pretty quickly.

Off-topic here's a picture of my tank during pearling (when the plants are respiring so much oxygen that it can no longer stay dissolved (~8%) in the water and it bubbles out); it's like a mini-oxygen bar for the fish:

 

[FSR402]

WOW I want to brew with you when you add the near boiling wort to your carboy. I LOVE to see things explode. Reading this makes my head spin. The air in the carboy/bucket is the same as the air on the outside of the carboy/bucket. Plus the last time I checked near boiling water or wort does not produce steam, you have to actually be boiling it to make steam also steam does not sanitize the instant it touches something. It takes time not a lot but still takes time.

Near boiling wort should never be added to the container from my reading. You want to crash out undesirables by some rapid cooling method. The wort that goes into my carboy is <80F. The boiling water is added at the beginning while the wort is heating up (so it has time to cool to RT). Things do not explode unless they are put under pressure or flammable/explosive. Unless you put a cap on the carboy it will not explode. To prevent longterm stress (years) the first bit of water should be added slowly to warm the base but after that you can go wild with your water addition.

Water vapor/steam doesn't require anywhere close to boiling to be produced. Put a pot on the stove with water and stick a top on. You'll see moisture form very quickly, even while the water is still tepid. This is water vapor and when heated to at/near boiling does a very good job at killing things. Not in seconds, but the water stays VERY hot for quite a while in either glass or plastic. More than enough time to not be concerned about contamination. If really concerned about contamination you could put a stopper on the top of the carboy with a sterilized hose coming out. Kink the hose to prevent air from going in as the water vapor condenses. When your wort is cool you could put the end of the hose in the wort and release the kink. The vacuum will draw the wort into the carboy until the pressures are equal. Then you can remove the stopper and pour the rest of the wort in. Just not worth it IMO to get this anal since there are other places where we have a chance of slight contamination (racking without a closed system, bottling, etc.).

Then you're doing the shaking wrong. When I shaked my carboy/bucket I would cover the hole (where the airlock goes) shake the hell out of it and then unplug the hole. I can hear the air suck into the carboy/bucket. I repeat this 3-4 times.

That sucking sound means your wort is not cooled properly prior to adding to the container. What is happening is the water vapor is condensing in the air space creating a vacuum. When you release the plug the vacuum causes air to rush into the container. If the wort is cooled to RT, there will be no vacuum created, and thus, no need to repeat anything.

Now this one made me laugh. If you are displacing the air in the carboy/bucket that would mean that no air is staying in the wort. Plus I'm guessing that you have never used one of those little pumps. They move less air then what I do breathing now ad a defuser stone to the mix (restricts the hell out of it) and now you are talking very little air. You act like he's hooking a hose from a 150psi air compressor to it. Come on now.. There has been studies that proved that shaking the carboy/bucket for a few minutes can induce more air into the wort then the litle pump and stone can in 30 minutes.

My primary hobby is in the aquarium trade. I'm well aware of the capabilities of the air pumps. Over 30-60 minutes that small amount of air adds up, even with a restrictor inline (filter/diffuser). You are aerating the wort, the purpose of this is to dissolve the atmospheric oxygen back into solution. The process of boiling releases much of the dissolved gases so that the amount of oxygen in the wort is less than the air around it. Once this amount of oxygen is dissolved back into the wort they are at equilibrium (close to equal amounts). No matter how much you add after this point, only the oxygen being consumed by the yeast is being replenished, the rest is just going right back out the mouth of the container (you can't dissolve more oxygen in the wort than is in the air when using air). This whole time the other 79% of air that is not oxygen is being forced into the liquid, and bubbling right out the top. This is a dangerous route because you are introducing potential contaminants directly INTO the wort. So with ease I can say that less than 1% of the air you are pumping in is going to stay in the wort. The rest is going to just bubble right to the surface, and that air is going to push the air above it, so on and so on, until it reaches the mouth of the container.


HTH, and no worries...I've got a thick skin, and enjoy debate.

There is so much misinformation in there that I don't have the time or the will to debate it at this hour. I'm heading out for a 20 mile run and I just don't see the point of arguing with someone that does not know the difference of condensation and steam.

 

[Chris_Dog]

Not even close. You've got X amount of air in the carboy that SHOULD be sterile if properly prepared. Pouring at/near boiling water into the carboy/bucket will create a steam that is at/near boiling. This will kill anything in the air as moist heat is far more effective than dry heat. Besides this point:

Shaking a carboy around to oxygenate the wort is vastly different that pumping air into it. When shaking, very little air is being introduced into the container, you are just mixing the air inside of the container with the wort. The chance of contamination is very low.

Now PUMPING air INTO the wort is a whole different story. You are actively displacing volume IN the container, meaning that for every ounce of air you pump in an ounce of air has to come out. Over the course of the 30min-60min (seems to be the normal amount of time I've gathered on here) you are exchanging the volume of air in the container probably several times over. This would be like spreading your wort out on baking sheets.....and hoping it stays uncontaminated.


Get the filter, or don't use an air pump (shake it). You are seriously risking contamination..probably more than pretty much any other method of contamination you could imagine (minus not washing equipment at all).

My wort is cooled by the time it gets to the carboy. Matter of fact I think the thermal shock of adding boiling wort to the carboy would break it.

I think a filter on a aquarium pump is a good idea. In the grand scheme what is a few bucks for a little bit of insurance?

 

[7Enigma]

There is so much misinformation in there that I don't have the time or the will to debate it at this hour. I'm heading out for a 20 mile run and I just don't see the point of arguing with someone that does not know the difference of (between?) condensation and steam.

Personal attacks are generally the first sign you are losing an argument. Not refuting any comments is the second.

My wort is cooled by the time it gets to the carboy. Matter of fact I think the thermal shock of adding boiling wort to the carboy would break it.

I think a filter on a aquarium pump is a good idea. In the grand scheme what is a few bucks for a little bit of insurance?

I don't understand where people keep talking about adding boiling wort to the carboy? Wort is only added to the fermenter AFTER being cold-shocked to <80F. What I'm referring to is the pre-boil with standard tap water prior to starting the hour boil of wort. And as I mentioned earlier the first cup or two of water should be added slowly (20 seconds or so). This will allow the base to heat up above ambient temperature and prevent any chance of cracking (you'll never get an explosion, its just not possible). After the first cup or two is added in, you can pour the rest in the way you would pour your cooled wort in. Since I'm using a glass carboy I have a large funnel, but it still requires a slower pour than an open plastic bucket, but the 2 gallons or so of water is added in less than a minute. I then keep the funnel on the carboy and put a piece of saran wrap lightly over the top (to prevent particulates from falling inside).

 

[MikeFlynn74]

I'm heading out for a 20 mile run

That just proves you are crazy.

 

[Yooper]

The topic is "aeration risk- no airline filter." I think we've covered the topic. Anything more to add to the topic for the original poster?

 

[FSR402]

Personal attacks are generally the first sign you are losing an argument. Not refuting any comments is the second.



I don't understand where people keep talking about adding boiling wort to the carboy? Wort is only added to the fermenter AFTER being cold-shocked to <80F. What I'm referring to is the pre-boil with standard tap water prior to starting the hour boil of wort. And as I mentioned earlier the first cup or two of water should be added slowly (20 seconds or so). This will allow the base to heat up above ambient temperature and prevent any chance of cracking (you'll never get an explosion, its just not possible). After the first cup or two is added in, you can pour the rest in the way you would pour your cooled wort in. Since I'm using a glass carboy I have a large funnel, but it still requires a slower pour than an open plastic bucket, but the 2 gallons or so of water is added in less than a minute. I then keep the funnel on the carboy and put a piece of saran wrap lightly over the top (to prevent particulates from falling inside).

Nope, not losing anything. But I see Yoop has put her foot down (a cute one at that ) so I wont bother to continue. I need a beer, 20 miles drains you......

 

[RadicalEd]

Well, I have to second the 20 mile = crazy. Egads man, I'm about ready to pass out after one, but I can walk 20 miles in a day. Running just never agreed with me.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Well, I have to second the 20 mile = crazy. Egads man, I'm about ready to pass out after one, but I can walk 20 miles in a day. Running just never agreed with me.

I have yet to see a smile on runners unless from a liquor store.
Tell my friend at age 52, last thursday had a total knee replacment from running everyday for 30 years, later this year his other knee will be replaced it's also becoming a stage 4.
I'm not here to pick on ya, enjoy your run with this spring weather, ya must have the best shoes then have your homebrew reward.

 

[7Enigma]

I run 5k and 5 milers weekly, but that's about all I can stomach before I'm ready to blow my brains out from boredom. And that's on a treadmill in front of SportsCenter, with my mp3 player jammin' (CC on the tv so I can understand the commentary). Outside I'm lucky if I get 2-3 miles in before I'm going crazy, even with the music.

 

[FSR402]

I run 5k and 5 milers weekly, but that's about all I can stomach before I'm ready to blow my brains out from boredom. And that's on a treadmill in front of SportsCenter, with my mp3 player jammin' (CC on the tv so I can understand the commentary). Outside I'm lucky if I get 2-3 miles in before I'm going crazy, even with the music.

I can't do more then 3 miles on a dreadmill and I want to kill. But outside running with my running friends I can go for hours (20 miles = 3 hours).
I have to do a 24 miler this coming weekend. Not look forward to that one though.
But when I cross that finish line at the marathon it's all worth it. Besides, do you know how much homebrew you can drink after burning off 4,000 cals in the morning?