Thanks! I've read that as well. I've heard good things about Munton's extracts. I've considered ordering some online to try them out, and I'm sure I will eventually. It can just really boost the price of a batch though ordering extract online especially if shipping isn't free. The DME at my LHBS is about $2/Lb cheaper than most online prices I see nowadays.
Advanced extract brewing
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D.B.Moody
Well-Known Member
My process is in this thread: I Brewed A Favorite Recipe Today (link) It is clearer in some of the later posts. There is a comparison of Briess and Munitions in there too. I prefer Muntons to Briess, and, yes, it complicates ordering. Check Label Peelers for Muntons. Rite Brew is better for Briess and other things. You are lucky to have a good LHBS.
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Are the late extract additions primarily for color purposes only, or do you detect a flavor difference as well?
Although steeping grains may work fine in that large volume of water, I doubt mashing will when so highly diluted. The enzymes will be too dispersed to "meet up" with the starch.
But you can do mini mashes in a kitchen pot (or 2 or 3) with a lid on, kept in a warm but turned-off oven in a typical mash temp range. The actual mash temp [EDIT] (alas, within starch conversion range) is not as critical as it contains only a (relatively) small % of your fermentables.
In my early homebrewing years (in the kitchen) I did fairly large mini-mashes that way (2-3 gallons) with the balance of DME added toward the end of the boil.
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I assumed the same. I had noticed that a few of the recipe kits I saw that called for that method included a packet of amylase enzyme as well to stir in at the start of the rest.
As long as the enzymes can do a complete conversion that could work. But it could well be better (and just as easy) to perform the mini mash in a smaller vessel at a more reasonable grist to water ratio.
D.B.Moody
Well-Known Member
Not for color. Since I'm pretty much color blind, I don't worry about how pale my ale is. It is probably a bit lighter and it has less caramelizing on the kettle bottom, but I can't say it's noticeable in tasting. I do the late addition so I can do a 30 minute boil. The 30 minute boil reduces hop utilization; the late addition makes up for that.
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I am careful about how much water I steep my grains in. Some say too much water can be bad. Brad Smith talks about it here. While you are at it, here is a good list of short articles by him, some quite relevant to this subject.
Cheers,
Joel B.
Cheers,
Joel B.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
At MoreBeer, the general instructions PDF for the kits use the wort 'a' / 'b' concept from How to Brew, 4e - with an extension for partial mashing (that I didn't see in the book).
Summary: Add the DME for wort 'a' to cold water, heat wort to steep or mash temperature, add the grains (and enzymes), rest, remove the grains, continue to boil.
In the wort 'a' / 'b' process, wort 'a' is half the DME/LME (+ grains) and half the water.
How to Brew, 4e uses this approach for steeping - as the minerals in the wort mitigate many potential 'water only' related problems.
It appears that adding back sufficient amounts of enzymes will set up the wort for a proper mash.
I found I prefer Munton's DME over Briess. Briess was fairly bland. Might not matter much if you plan on using specialties a lot. I prefer 85+% base malt.
Also, there's no reason to give up on all-grain. I put 4 gallons in the fermenter out of a 5 gallon soup pot. A single dunk sparge in a bucket will get you there.
I do both. DME most of the time for simple running beers. All-grain when I have the time to brew something special.
Also, there's no reason to give up on all-grain. I put 4 gallons in the fermenter out of a 5 gallon soup pot. A single dunk sparge in a bucket will get you there.
I do both. DME most of the time for simple running beers. All-grain when I have the time to brew something special.
I could see using Briess for IPA's and Belgians, where malt flavor isn't really the star. But for English and perhaps even German style beers I could definitely see myself giving Munton's a try. Your opinion seems to track with what I've seen and heard from others.
I definitely wouldn't be giving up on all-grain. Much like you said, I could see myself making extract batches for my everyday drinkers with the occasional all grain batch for something a bit more fun and/or special.
I just did an extract batch on Tuesday and re-discovered the joy of extract brewing, Much simpler brew day.I'm likely going to be moving in the next couple months, and in preparing for doing so it's gotten me re-thinking my homebrew setup. Particularly, it's gotten me thinking about going back to stovetop/countertop extract brewing. I've been brewing primarily all grain and supplementing with DME when needed. I even use one of the Anvil Foundry all-in-one electric systems, but for some reason I still can't decide if I'd like to scale back even further. Plus, living in Southern California like I do, finding places to live that have a decent outdoor area for brewing can start getting a bit pricey. I was thinking that bringing my brewing back into the kitchen might give me less to consider when it comes to finding a new space. Also, I cook a lot so a nice functional kitchen is a high priority for me anyway. I also like the thought of easier cleanup after brew day. Ideally to have things I could just wash in the sink when I'm done. I also feel that in general I could benefit from having fewer options sometimes. I've recently started using dry yeast after years of liquid strains and starters, and I feel really good about it so far. I'm curious if veering back toward extract for a bit might have a similar effect in terms of having less to fuss over and worry about.
I currently produce around 4gal/15L of wort that I ferment in 5-gallon corny kegs placed in a temp controlled chest freezer. (I also just ordered one of those 5gal Fermenter King Juniors but I've yet to try it out. They were 50% off through Anvil). I would like to keep my batch size and fermentation setup the same. It's mainly just the hot side that I'm looking to address. I see a lot of discussion here about steeping grains, late extract additions, partial boils, using simple sugars, using cold top-up water to aid in cooling, etc. If anyone has a specific process or certain equipment that they use and enjoy I would love to hear about it!
PS - I can't remember if this had already been discussed, please point me to where if so, but when it comes to using a small amount of grain that needs to be mashed, has anyone had luck with mashing the grains in the full volume of water needed for the boil but with a bit of extract added to it already? I believe I have seen this before in a few of the John Palmer recipe kits on MoreBeer. I believe these kits would come with a small packet of amylase enzyme powder as well. My assumption is that mashing a small amount of grain in a larger amount of water with some dissolved extract would perhaps mitigate the pH issues from trying to mash that little grain in that much plain water. The enzyme packet perhaps providing some extra insurance.
Edit: Things I'm already doing/considering:
- I already use distilled water that I just buy from the store and add calcium salts as needed. I assume I'd continue using distilled water for extract and salts to a much lesser extent, if at all.
- I'm eyeing the 5.5 gallon SS Brewtech kettle.
- 30 minute boils.
- I'd likely use Briess DME for most if not all brews. My LHBS only carries Briess.
- I've been enjoying Annie Johnson's Craft Beer & Brewing article series, "No Rests for the Wicked". Hopefully it keeps going and I might use some of those for my first couple recipes getting back into extract.
Cheers!
I scaled back years ago to 3 gallon batches. Like you, i have an Anvil Foundry. Mine is the 6.5. I also have their 5 gallon Anvil brew pot, which a recent visit so their site shows they don’t seem to be sellng anymore. Like you, I’ve been a liquid yeast guy, just about always Wyeast. I have not been a dry yeast fan but I have tried a few different dried yeasts in the past couple years with mixed results. I’m the most impressed with Fermentis 34/70 for lagers far as dry yeasts go. I have diamond lager and a couple other dry yeasts still to try,
I do have a 5 gallon Gott cooler that I use for larger batches or stronger batches like when I want to make a barley wine. I haven’t used the cooler in about three years though.
I belong to a club and we have several brewers who only do extract. They make great beers and great beers can be made with just extract and steeping grains.
I love brewing in my kitchen and not having to brew in the garage or outside when its cold and the weather is bad. I also like smaller batches because all the containers are smaller and lighter and everything is easier to handle.
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Funnily enough I noticed the very same thing today. I was thinking about getting one of their 5 gallon kettles but it appears it’s been discontinued. Luckily it looks like SS Brewtech is still making theirs so I may go with that.
Glad to hear you also enjoyed the extract brew day. I also feel like there’s been enough knowledge shared by those who continue to use extract that I feel confident I could still make good beer.
I agree with you that 34/70 has been great and I too want to try Diamond. I’m going to try BRY-97 in my next batch most likely, and I’m hopeful that I’ll enjoy it. It’s hard to beat the convenience of dry yeasts, and I do believe when people say the quality has increased quite a bit the past few years.
BrewnWKopperKat
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For "no boil (pasteurized)" processes and recipes, take a look at the two "No boil" topics from 2019 and the "I brewed an experimental recipe a few weeks ago" topic in the extract brewing forum.
Over the past couple of years, many of my DME-based recipes have been "no boil" hop forward styles. I also have some recipes that are 30 min (full volume) soft boils with steeping from flame-on to about 165F.
On the topic of steeping vs mini-mash (grains in 1 gal water) vs partial mash (grains in 2.5 gal water), I don't mini-mash. Mash temperature control becomes almost auto-magic with a partial mash - I wrap the kettle with reflectix and cover the lid with a bath towel. I steep from flame-on to 165 - if I'm going to steep at 150F-ish for 30 minutes, I'll partial mash instead.
The 'wort a / b' concept from How to Brew, 4e (2017) (partial boils with late additions) is intended for brewing in the kitchen - make five gal batches with 2.5 gal equipment. @D.B.Moody has some enhancements to it. Palmer has some enhancements (enzymes) to it. Creating 'wort a' with a larger partial mash is an enhancement that I don't see often in forum discussion.
Brewers crystals (MoreBeer has them as brewers sugar crystals) are an ingredient that could work well in this environment. I have been using them with some of my recent DME-based recipes and have been getting good results. Challenge those the old, out dated, HomeBrewTalk topics (and conventional wisdom) on "kanz and kilo" brewing. Brewers crystals are "professional grade".
As for off flavors and off color with 'extract', it's possible that almost all of it can be explained by stale ingredients and bad practices (not properly mixing, boiling too hard, scorching, etc).
Mineral content in DME is an interesting, current topic. But take the time to verify that 'excessive' mineral content is a problem for you. I can make good DME-based beer up to about OG 66. Above that, I switch to all-grain. For me, one of my goals is to make a DME-based barley wine as good as all-grain barley wine. I'm not there yet (and yes, part of the problem is probably bad recipe design due to concentrated mineral content).
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I had never heard of using amylase enzyme with extract (or partial mash) brewing. I looked up the John Palmer kits on MoreBeer and I see that some of them do contain Amylase Enzyme. Is this just used with partial mash recipes? Has anybody used amylase enzyme? What is the purpose? Just to add more enzymes to make the mash more forgiving? Or perform a partial mash without using base grains?
From my understanding it appears to be used when trying to brew beer styles that require a type of grain that needs to be mashed, but likely isn’t available in extract form. For example, I think his Oatmeal stout kit is one of them.
I do have a hoppy “no-boil” recipe that I’ve wanted to try that’s basically just a long hop stand. Could be a fun way to make a session ipa.
I’ve never really considered how the minerals in extract-only beers might concentrate as the specific gravity increases. That’s a really interesting topic. Do we think that this issue is similar for both DME and LME?
BrewnWKopperKat
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I would guess that DME & LME for the same brand/style differ only by the evaporation process.
I was thinking maybe because LME is less concentrated than DME that it could be different, but I suppose having to use more LME to achieve the same OG as DME would perhaps end up at a point where it’s basically a wash in terms of minerality.
You're correct!
DME is produced similarly to LME, but may not quite reach the thick viscous syrup stage LME does.
The process is summarized in this article, also showing a "spray dryer" turning concentrated wort into DME powder.
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/inside-the-briess-extract-plant-and-brewhouse/
IIRC, Briess used to have a process diagram of their LME/DME production, I can't find it on their site.
Briess' extract production is likely similar to what I saved from Muntons, a few years back:
These look super interesting. If I’m understanding correctly, these would perhaps provide the fermentability similar to that of extract, but with minimal flavor and color contributions? Are you using these mainly for lighter style beers that you feel wouldn’t be well suited for simple sugars? Or I could see these also potentially diluting the mineral concentration in higher OG beers like you mentioned.
BrewnWKopperKat
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That's my understanding also - and a small number of batches has confirmed this understanding.
With my hop forward APA/IPA DME recipes, I generally include 10% to 15% sugar. For APAs/IPAs, pilsen DME + sugar gives me color appropriate to style.
With my hop forward Ambers / Red IPAs / Double Reds, I often start with Pale Ale or Amber DME (and 10/15% sugar). Brewers Crystals add ABV and help keep color / wort appropriate to style. I currently limit sugar to about 15% - as at about 25% sugar, the wort starts looking like a braggot (not a beer)).
And for me, mineral concentration seems to be a factor. FWIW, I was never a fan of bottled mineral water.
I have some ideas for series of 6.5% and 8% DME-based Red IPA & Double Red recipes that I'll probably brew starting in March. Recipes may appear in "I brewed an experimental recipe a few weeks ago..." this spring.
BrewnWKopperKat
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How to Brew, 4e, chapter 3 has additional information.
More importantly, when considering flavor salt additions (CaS04, CaCl, NaCl), different brands are likely have different 'best' amounts. Within a brand, LME & DME probably have the same (or very similar) 'best' amounts. If in doubt, brew a test batch, season to taste in the glass, then add the results back to the full size batch.
Besides just a flavor difference for those of you that have tried/compared Briess and Muntons DME, have any of you noticed any difference in fermentability? I feel like I've seen some suggest that Briess is a bit more fermentable.
Edit/PS - Has anyone tried or does anybody know much about the William's Brewing LME's? They have a few that sound super interesting, like Belgian Pale, and American Rye. Are these an in-house product or maybe contracted through a bigger producer? For the sake of freshness I'd be curious as to how quickly they move through these products (and personally, that they're just a few hours north of me).
Edit/PS - Has anyone tried or does anybody know much about the William's Brewing LME's? They have a few that sound super interesting, like Belgian Pale, and American Rye. Are these an in-house product or maybe contracted through a bigger producer? For the sake of freshness I'd be curious as to how quickly they move through these products (and personally, that they're just a few hours north of me).
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In an earlier post I quoted Muntons’ answer to my question about brewing salts in their extract. Looking at this communication, I think there is other information that could be of interest to many of those following this thread.
MY EMAIL:
I will be brewing with various styles of Muntons Dry Malt Extract (Spraymalt) soon - Light, Amber, Dark, etc. I have three questions.
In working up recipe, I will need to know the quantities of the various malts in the extract in order to add the necessary specialty malts. Is this information available? If not, would it be reasonable to use the amber or other styles in a recipe calling for a generic amber, etc?
I would like to optimize the salts in the water - chlorides and sulfates in particular. Is there some place on your website that shows the salt content of the mash water? Or is this information available in another form?
I ordered some Muntons Plain Amber Spray Malt Extract from Label Peelers yesterday, but in looking through the Muntons website today, I don’t see this product. Is there a glitch somewhere?
Any help would be appreciated.
MUNTONS REPLY:
Thank you for your enquiry. Let me address your questions as they are laid out in your email;
Our spraymalts are designed primarily to supplement home brew kits (used instead of brewing sugar), or to act as a yeast growth medium when propagating and storing yeast. There is nothing wrong with using these for the main source of wort fermentables, but we do not design a grist to give the complexity of flavour you ordinarily get from a using a host of different malts. For this purpose I would direct you towards our liquid range Homebrew Malt Extracts Archives - Muntons. Unfortunately our website does not currently display the full range. Full range is made up of;
I advise that you contact ABC Cork at ABC Cork Co. if you want to understand the availability in your region. [Note: ABC Cork did not have an answer.]
So, in answer to your question, I recommend that you use speciality malts such as light crystals and caras in order to get the full depth of flavour you would expect from an amber ale, instead of relying on the amber spraymalt that will give you colour but less of the fruity, crystalised sugar flavours.
Please consider our extracts to be made with water with minimal salt inclusion. I suggest that to optimise this, start with the salt levels of the water you intend to use and build up the chlorides and sulphates from there.
We do make an amber spraymalt, but this is not on our website as we don't sell it in sachets and it is therefore not part of our core range. The reason you can purchase it is because a third party buys it in bulk and packs it into smaller units.
MY FOLLOW-UP:
I am especially interested in the recommendation to use liquid malt extract (LME) to get complexity of flavor. I am switching from LME to DME for all my brews because of the concern about LME staling, but maybe that is unnecessary. Is it your feeling that staling of LME is not actually a concern if it is used within a few months from receiving it?
A second question: What is the ppg (points per pound per gallon in specific gravity contribution) of the Muntons DME and LME?
MUNTONS SECOND EMAIL:
You can usually expect LME to darken a little over time, which DME won’t. If the LME is fresh and has been stored correctly (cool conditions) then this shouldn’t be an issue, and it shouldn’t adversely affect the flavour.
I don’t typically work in US Imperial units, so come back to me if this sounds wrong, but I calculate that the PPGs are;
LME 38.3
DME 46.4
That’s to say that if you take 1lb of malt extract and dissolved it in 1 gallon of water, you get a gravity of 1.0383 for LME and 1.0464 for DME.
MY EMAIL:
I will be brewing with various styles of Muntons Dry Malt Extract (Spraymalt) soon - Light, Amber, Dark, etc. I have three questions.
In working up recipe, I will need to know the quantities of the various malts in the extract in order to add the necessary specialty malts. Is this information available? If not, would it be reasonable to use the amber or other styles in a recipe calling for a generic amber, etc?
I would like to optimize the salts in the water - chlorides and sulfates in particular. Is there some place on your website that shows the salt content of the mash water? Or is this information available in another form?
I ordered some Muntons Plain Amber Spray Malt Extract from Label Peelers yesterday, but in looking through the Muntons website today, I don’t see this product. Is there a glitch somewhere?
Any help would be appreciated.
MUNTONS REPLY:
Thank you for your enquiry. Let me address your questions as they are laid out in your email;
Our spraymalts are designed primarily to supplement home brew kits (used instead of brewing sugar), or to act as a yeast growth medium when propagating and storing yeast. There is nothing wrong with using these for the main source of wort fermentables, but we do not design a grist to give the complexity of flavour you ordinarily get from a using a host of different malts. For this purpose I would direct you towards our liquid range Homebrew Malt Extracts Archives - Muntons. Unfortunately our website does not currently display the full range. Full range is made up of;
- Vienna
- Munich
- Maris Otter
- Oat
- Sour
- Wheat
- Light
- Light hopped
- Extra light
- Amber
- Amber hopped
- Medium
- Dark
- Dark Hopped
So, in answer to your question, I recommend that you use speciality malts such as light crystals and caras in order to get the full depth of flavour you would expect from an amber ale, instead of relying on the amber spraymalt that will give you colour but less of the fruity, crystalised sugar flavours.
Please consider our extracts to be made with water with minimal salt inclusion. I suggest that to optimise this, start with the salt levels of the water you intend to use and build up the chlorides and sulphates from there.
We do make an amber spraymalt, but this is not on our website as we don't sell it in sachets and it is therefore not part of our core range. The reason you can purchase it is because a third party buys it in bulk and packs it into smaller units.
MY FOLLOW-UP:
I am especially interested in the recommendation to use liquid malt extract (LME) to get complexity of flavor. I am switching from LME to DME for all my brews because of the concern about LME staling, but maybe that is unnecessary. Is it your feeling that staling of LME is not actually a concern if it is used within a few months from receiving it?
A second question: What is the ppg (points per pound per gallon in specific gravity contribution) of the Muntons DME and LME?
MUNTONS SECOND EMAIL:
You can usually expect LME to darken a little over time, which DME won’t. If the LME is fresh and has been stored correctly (cool conditions) then this shouldn’t be an issue, and it shouldn’t adversely affect the flavour.
I don’t typically work in US Imperial units, so come back to me if this sounds wrong, but I calculate that the PPGs are;
LME 38.3
DME 46.4
That’s to say that if you take 1lb of malt extract and dissolved it in 1 gallon of water, you get a gravity of 1.0383 for LME and 1.0464 for DME.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
So it may be that Amber DME is a good 'base malt'
for making a variety of styles of 'red' beer (boring American Amber Ales, hoppy American Amber Ales, Red IPAs, Double Reds, ...): season to taste with steeping grains and minerals (and let the yeast be the 'secret' ingredient).I'll probably use just Pilsen Light since the others have an unknown grain bill.So it may be that Amber DME is a good 'base malt'
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
If I were in the 1 or 2 day delivery zone for Williams, I would give them a try.
More generally, I suspect that successful home brewing with fresh LME involves:
1) finding a supplier that stores it properly,
2) finding a supplier that packages (or repackages) it properly,
3) finding a supplier with a short delivery time,
4) storing it properly at home, and
5) brewing with it soon after it arrives.
With failed brew days involving LME, the anecdotal stories seem to be either:
*) "first person" stories: #4 or #5 are primary causes (forgotten kit, ...)
*) "forum wisdom" stories: #2 is a primary cause ("dusty cans at LHBS")
People (but not bots nor ChatGPT) are brewing good beers with LME.
Given the effort it took to talk about ideas for successfully bottle conditioning of NEIPAs, why would any one show up to say how they brew successfully with LME? It would be much easier to leave HomeBrewTalk "forum wisdom" stuck in the past.
Dancy
Well-Known Member
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I recently ordered William’s Belgian LME for a Tripel I plan to brew a week or two from now. I brewed an all grain Tripel for the first time some months ago and loved it. I wanted an easy brew day so decided to try this LME.
I'll share some correspondence I got from Williams Brewing. A few months ago I had a pouch of the LME start fermenting in the bag and swell up. They refunded for this. When I asked about the contamination problem, their answer was "we do not know when or if we might get more Nut Brown. We do have quite a bit until we run out. Not all of it has been bagged. We've only had a couple that started to ferment in the bag. The other sizes seem to be fine. We do believe it may have had to do with the hot weather. It is refrigerated here and we are now going to put a sticker on the bags in warm weather to refrigerate on arrival." Due to concerns about the sanitation, I no longer buy malt extract from Williams Brewing.
Good to know. I'm thinking in general it's just a safer bet all around to use DME it seems. Especially for online ordering. It sounds similar to why I've been switching over to dry yeasts lately. So much less to worry about when it comes to shipping, storage, and time constraints.
BrewnWKopperKat
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@Pehlman17 : there's a similar anecdotal story over in AHA forums:
With regard to purchases, my experience has been
With regard to purchases, my experience has been
- Every (yes, every) home brew store (physical or online) has made a mistake.
- Every (yes, every) one of them has made it right by replacing or refunding.
But this seems like an FDA kind of thing where they should be legally required to take all contaminated products off the shelf immediately, not just slap a sticker on it and say "use at your own risk". And they're not even saying that last phrase!
BrewnWKopperKat
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Thanks @Pehlman17 for #359.
Two additional links to topics here at HomeBrewTalk that may help piece together a more complete anecdotal.
Once again:
p.s. pasteurization is your friend.
p.p.s: Brewing Engineering, 2e. Currently the ebook is about the same price as a 10oz pour.
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Two additional links to topics here at HomeBrewTalk that may help piece together a more complete anecdotal.
Once again:
p.s. pasteurization is your friend.
p.p.s: Brewing Engineering, 2e. Currently the ebook is about the same price as a 10oz pour.
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I think in spite of the issue with the LME, Williams DME would be fine since it's not a medium that bacteria can grow in. But that's really just a guess on by part. Does anyone know if that's right?
I think you are correct that the DME would likely not have the same issues. I am not positive if William's sells Briess DME, Muntons DME, or their own custom DME. In any case, it looks to be just a few "standard" types. While I have never purchased LME from William's, one of the attractions is that they have custom blends created for them (at least as I understand). They have some really interesting LME products like Belgian Pale, and German Pils.
I contacted Williams about the salts used in the mash when making their malt extracts. They said the water is California tap water with nothing added. So I guess it isn't from Briess or Muntons. And since they sell some specialty LME products, I think they probably have them custom made.
I was able to find one still hanging around on Amazon. It's sold and shipped by Amazon as well, so it even qualified for free Prime 2-day shipping. Should be here tomorrow.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Those interested in learning how to add flavor salt additions ("season to taste") with other brands of DME might want to get this book.
With the general understanding of the brands of DME in the book, it should take one (maybe two) 1 gal batches to "dial in" the adjustments for any other brand of DME.
eta: the point being this: it is likely that flavor salt adjustments are brand specific.
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BrewnWKopperKat
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With regard to LME, once again. Please:
And don't forget to check those recipes for flavor salt additions.
- buy it fresh
- store and handle it properly
- use it quickly.
And don't forget to check those recipes for flavor salt additions.
