Advanced extract brewing

[Pehlman17]

I'll share some correspondence I got from Williams Brewing. A few months ago I had a pouch of the LME start fermenting in the bag and swell up. They refunded for this. When I asked about the contamination problem, their answer was "we do not know when or if we might get more Nut Brown. We do have quite a bit until we run out. Not all of it has been bagged. We've only had a couple that started to ferment in the bag. The other sizes seem to be fine. We do believe it may have had to do with the hot weather. It is refrigerated here and we are now going to put a sticker on the bags in warm weather to refrigerate on arrival." Due to concerns about the sanitation, I no longer buy malt extract from Williams Brewing.

Good to know. I'm thinking in general it's just a safer bet all around to use DME it seems. Especially for online ordering. It sounds similar to why I've been switching over to dry yeasts lately. So much less to worry about when it comes to shipping, storage, and time constraints.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Pehlman17 : there's a similar anecdotal story over in AHA forums:

• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package
• Fermentation Restarted?

With regard to purchases, my experience has been

• Every (yes, every) home brew store (physical or online) has made a mistake.
• Every (yes, every) one of them has made it right by replacing or refunding.

If I were to take a "one (mistake) and done" approach to stores, I would not be home brewing.

 

[dmtaylor]

But this seems like an FDA kind of thing where they should be legally required to take all contaminated products off the shelf immediately, not just slap a sticker on it and say "use at your own risk". And they're not even saying that last phrase!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks @Pehlman17 for #359.

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Two additional links to topics here at HomeBrewTalk that may help piece together a more complete anecdotal.

• Fermentation Restarted?
• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package

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Once again:

I suspect that successful home brewing with fresh LME involves:
1) finding a supplier that stores it properly,
2) finding a supplier that packages (or repackages) it properly,
3) finding a supplier with a short delivery time,
4) storing it properly at home, and
5) brewing with it soon after it arrives.

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p.s. pasteurization is your friend.

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p.p.s: Brewing Engineering, 2e. Currently the ebook is about the same price as a 10oz pour.

edits: formatting

 

[ncbrewer]

Good to know. I'm thinking in general it's just a safer bet all around to use DME it seems.

I think in spite of the issue with the LME, Williams DME would be fine since it's not a medium that bacteria can grow in. But that's really just a guess on by part. Does anyone know if that's right?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I think in spite of the issue with the LME, Williams DME would be fine since it's not a medium that bacteria can grow in. But that's really just a guess on by part. Does anyone know if that's right?

I think you are correct that the DME would likely not have the same issues. I am not positive if William's sells Briess DME, Muntons DME, or their own custom DME. In any case, it looks to be just a few "standard" types. While I have never purchased LME from William's, one of the attractions is that they have custom blends created for them (at least as I understand). They have some really interesting LME products like Belgian Pale, and German Pils.

 

[ncbrewer]

I am not positive if William's sells Briess DME, Muntons DME, or their own custom DME.

I contacted Williams about the salts used in the mash when making their malt extracts. They said the water is California tap water with nothing added. So I guess it isn't from Briess or Muntons. And since they sell some specialty LME products, I think they probably have them custom made.

 

[Pehlman17]

I also have their 5 gallon Anvil brew pot, which a recent visit so their site shows they don’t seem to be sellng anymore.

I was able to find one still hanging around on Amazon. It's sold and shipped by Amazon as well, so it even qualified for free Prime 2-day shipping. Should be here tomorrow.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Those interested in learning how to add flavor salt additions ("season to taste") with other brands of DME might want to get this book.

With the general understanding of the brands of DME in the book, it should take one (maybe two) 1 gal batches to "dial in" the adjustments for any other brand of DME.

eta: the point being this: it is likely that flavor salt adjustments are brand specific.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With regard to LME, once again. Please:

• buy it fresh
• store and handle it properly
• use it quickly.

There appear to be lots of people in other topics and other forums who are doing this (for example the "no boil (pasteurized)" recipes in the extract NEIPA topics that started in 2019).

And don't forget to check those recipes for flavor salt additions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... and for those who wish to continue to repeat the "problems" of source water, consider this:

​

eta: supposedly, one should limit "extract" to styles that are hop forward or yeast forward. Good thing this brewer didn't listen. ​

​

​

 

[dmtaylor]

I wonder how much the 2 lb rice syrup had to do with the success of that beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I wonder how much the 2 lb rice syrup had to do with the success of that beer.

There's also the CaCl addition (and a couple of other things that are behind the redactions) to consider.

 

[Pehlman17]

View attachment 812277

Not to give too much away, but was this book perhaps written at a time prior to all Chilton, WI water being softened through ion-exchange? The book (at least the copy I have) seems to imply that Muntons has about 10x the sodium content of Briess, which IIRC goes very counter to what most folks here suggest.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Pehlman17 : I have a different set of "take-aways" from the book.

If you think the source water in Chilton has changed, then discard that section of the book and find a different approach for flavor salt additions.

Personally, I found the information useful and it provided a better starting point for flavor salt additions (than if I had started with nothing).

YMMV.

 

[Pehlman17]

@Pehlman17 : I have a different set of "take-aways" from the book.

If you think the source water in Chilton has changed, then discard that section of the book and find a different approach for flavor salt additions.

Personally, I found the information useful and it provided a better starting point for flavor salt additions (than if I had started with nothing).

YMMV.

I did too. I can say that I like the author's general advice regarding what styles Briess and Monton's might be best suited for respectively. Albiet, I've only used Briess, but his take on Munton's flavor profile with respect to Briess seems to match what I hear about it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Each brand (and style) of base malt (whole kernel, dry extract , ...) will likely provide a slightly different flavor.

 

[Pehlman17]

Has anybody noticed in Beersmith3 that Briess DME's are listed as having a SG potential of 1.034? Is that backwards? I feel like it should be more like 1.043, no? Muntons Spraymalt DME's for example are listed at a potential of 1.045

Edit: Looks like there was an issue. According to the BeerSmith forum, they just updated the Briess ingredients add-on in December and I was unaware. Uninstalling and re-installing the add-on corrected all the SG's. Just an FYI to those of you using BeerSmith.

 

[Pehlman17]

I found I prefer Munton's DME over Briess. Briess was fairly bland.

Have you noticed any difference in fermentability between the two brands? I know Briess claims 75% but I can’t seem to find the same info for Muntons.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Have you noticed any difference in fermentability between the two brands? I know Briess claims 75% but I can’t seem to find the same info for Muntons.

I don't have enough data to say either way.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

background: in a couple of different topics, I have hinted at a purchasing / usage process that could work for brewing with fresh LME. I'll outline it here (partially so I don't forget about it).

1. identify stores that store and repackage it well - and have a satisfaction guarantee (these stored exist today)
2. confirm that these stores can deliver fresh product using a 3rd party (being in a 1 or 2 day delivery zone is a plus)
3. store it properly when it arrives
4. use it promptly after it arrives

Information for indirectly confirming freshness the of the LME (by measuring color before the boil starts) exists - probably earlier in this topic.

 

[ncbrewer]

use it promptly after it arrives

I'm changing over to mainly DME, but when I was using all LME, I bought extract for three brews on each order. I brewed the lightest beer first and the darkest last. It was normally all used after about two months. It seemed to work pretty well.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's see what develops in 2022 ...

In retrospect, I feel that 2022 was a good year for this topic.

But, as they (occasionally) say, "all good things must come to an end need a break". And I'm working on some ideas that appear to need about a year to prove/dis-prove to my satisfaction. Maybe some of the ideas will leak into "I brewed an experimental recipe a few weeks ago...".

Thank you for the discussion. We'll discuss again in other topics!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Measuring the freshness of LME

Recently, I used this technique with a package of LME (oxygen barrier bag). The LME spent 7 days in shipping (dock to door in early April). The color that I measured early on brew day was matched what the provider stated. The color of the beer going into bottles was essentially the same. Hydrometer sample did not have any of the specific off flavors associated with stale LME /1/.

In advance, I'll state the obvious: do this measurement using a beer drinking glass, NOT IN THE FERMENTER.

From BYO Big Book of Homebrewing, 1e (Jan 2017), p 19:

There is an episode of Basic Brewing Radio /1/ that mentions the amount of color added during a 45 min boil - it's one.

From Homebrew Recipe Bible (Colby, Sept 2016), p 10:

And the same Basic Brewing Radio episode /1/ will have some specific off flavor descriptors for stale LME.

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/1/ Basic Brewing Radio: Aug 25 and Nov 17 2005.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

If you are just buying "basic" malt extract (ie, not something that only comes in liquid form), are there any reasons to prefer LME over DME?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

High relative humidity may be a reason to prefer LME. Every couple years, I have a brew day where it's very humid - and DME is definitely harder to work with under these conditions

 

[Pehlman17]

I wonder how much the 2 lb rice syrup had to do with the success of that beer.

Speaking of rice extract, I'd be curious to know if anyone has thoughts on using rice extract as opposed to sugar when it comes to lightening the body of higher ABV extract recipes. Particularly styles where sugars typically aren't employed in a standard all-grain recipe (ie, not Belgians or West Coast DIPAs). As far as I understand, rice extract (at least the dried kind) still contains about 40% maltose. In terms of fermentation I've heard it speculated that the sugar composition of a wort can effect the yeast's preferences. For example, that too high a ratio of glucose could deter the yeast from fully utilizing the maltose and/or maltotriose present. I'm not sure if this is even really a concern on the homebrew scale, or if the ratio of sugar would have to be higher than anyone would ever use in a beer anyway. I'm just curious as to whether there'd be any reason to use it over plain sugar (either dextrose, or sucrose) to both raise the OG and boost potential attenuation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

rice extract as opposed to sugar when it comes to lightening the body of higher ABV extract recipes

I've looked for product information on rice extract (from manufacturers) a couple of times over the years. I never found enough information to 'move forward' using it. Information on the labels off 1# / 3# packages suggested it is around 50% fermentable (vs 75% for DME/LME). At the moment, unless I have a specific need, the lower fermentability and higher cost cause me to pause on any trial recipes.

lightening the body of higher ABV extract recipes [...] (ie, not Belgians or West Coast DIPAs).

Did you have a specific recipe (or maybe a specific style) in mind? Also, having the all-grain recipe and the "equivalent" extract-based recipe would be helpful (as not all algorithmic recipe conversions result in an equivalent beer).

too high a ratio of glucose could deter the yeast from fully utilizing the maltose and/or maltotriose

Could it be that this is yeast strain specific? Also, could the techniques for making high gravity (12%-ish ABV) IPAs be useful?

I'm not sure if this is even really a concern on the homebrew scale, or if the ratio of sugar would have to be higher than anyone would ever use in a beer anyway.

Hopefully, we can avoid awakening the "ghost" of early "Kit and Kilo" brewers that seem to still haunt HomeBrewTalk.

My guess is that the upper limit for sugar in DME based style appropriate beer recipes is between 15% and 30%. Above those percentages, it's best to not judge the beverage against competition beer style guidelines. (side note: In a different topic /1/, I recently mentioned that I'm seeing some "hybrid wort" beverages in local / regional craft brewery tap rooms).

Given what has been posted here with regard to mineral content and wort composition for different brands of "amber" DME, how would one build a recipe for either a Red IPA (hoppy) or a "Double Red" Ale (malty) using DME as the primary malt?

So "too high" is probably a combination style / recipe / ingredient brand / taster.

I'm just curious as to whether there'd be any reason to use it [rice solids] over plain sugar (either dextrose, or sucrose) to both raise the OG and boost potential attenuation.

Last spring, when I was brewing test batches of higher ABV IPAs, I (re)confirmed that

• extra light / pilsen DME is the starting point for lighter color
• sugar and brewers crystals (in place of DME) could be used to help lower color
• sugar (in place of DME) could be used to improve fermentability (brewers crystals are roughly 75%-80% fermentable)

Rice solids appear to have a similar SRM to brewers crystals. The apparent lower fermentability of rice solids (I haven't verified the 50% fermentability) appears to be a problem for higher gravity beers.

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/1/

FWIW, at the local / regional craft brewing level, I'm starting to see some hybrid wort (50% barley, 50% honey) beverages. From my limited experiences with these beverages, 50% simple sugars will result in a flavor / body that is different from a similar 100% malted barley wort. If you choose to try them, set aside those competition brewing guidelines and enjoy the moment.

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

I don't think BIAB would be any better than what I'm currently doing, as far as having my little man around. I don't see it as being any worse either though. I agree that AG can have advantages over Extract, but that isn't really what this discussion is about. We're looking to find ways to make the best extract beer we can by learning how to work around the limitations (or perhaps debunking some of the perceived limitations). As a few people here have already said, they do both AG and extract, and for those of us who haven't done AG yet, it doesnt mean we won't, just that, while we are using extract, we'd like to get the best possible results from it.


Back onto the subject, I either heard on a podcast, or read somewhere recently (sorry, I can't remember for the life of me), that adding a small amount of base malts can really help an extract brew out. In a way they were talking about doing very small partial mashes, by adding in a pound or so of 2-row or whatever base malt the AG recipe was using, to the steeping grains, and pretty much aiming for a "steep" at 152. They also said to remove a certain amount of your base malt extract, as you were effectively replacing it... Though I forget the conversion to figure out how much to remove.

The idea behind it is that extract doesn't carry much of the original flavour of the grains, and that by adding a pound or so of the base malt to the steep/mash can make a huge difference. It seemed that they didn't want to turn all your recipes into partial mashes, as the amount of base malt was very small, but just make a slightly bigger steep, and doing it at the proper mash temp. Anyone ever tried this, or have any thoughts on it?

If you’re using base malt in an extract brew, you really need to mash those grains until they convert. Otherwise those base malts will leech proteins and create haze.

There’s a belief that extract is low in Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN) which is why some people do a mini-mash. It’s not really true. When I worked for Muntons I verified this with their Brewing Technologist.

For color adjustment and to add a “fresh” grain flavor, you can stick with steeping dark kilned (Caramel/Caramunich) or drum roasted (CaraPils, Crystal, Chocolate, Black, etc) malts.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you’re using base malt in an extract brew, you really need to mash those grains until they convert. Otherwise those base malts will leech proteins and create haze.

So what are your thoughts on how to implement an effective partial mash?