Additives, and Cancer.

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smizak

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CSA programs are awesome! I went to school up in Stevens Point Wisconsin where my roomate and I participated in community agriculture events, and ethnobotany. You would always meet tons of interesting people, and learn so much. Hopefully, It'll be something that catches on in the near future even more then it already has.
The CSA program I belong to started with 100 members in 1996. It now has 900. You get a nice newsletter every week when you pick up your food telling you how the farm is going and how the crops are coming along. I love it, it ends up costing me $14 a week for a big grocery bag stuffed with food.
 

dwarven_stout

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My wife never understands why I argue on the internet...

There's some good stuff in this thread. I homemake a lot of things that we use, and we make an effort to buy local and in season, to preserve, and to develop relationships with the actual people who grow the food that we but. I respect some of the ideals in this thread, but I'm really bugged by a few things:

Oh, and there's plenty of information available to show organic is "healthier". For example, US Lamb is injected with a growth hormone that is directly linked to breast cancer. NZ and Aussie lamb is hormone free, organic. Would you honestly rather have an antibiotic, hormone injected piece of meat as opposed to the latter?
I use all organic, naturally derived hormones when injecting my livestock. I also feed them offal from the previous slaughter. Would you eat my lamb?

It seems pretty obvious to me that something organic, is healthier.
That's called the Appeal to Nature fallacy.

Makes me wonder how much shipping goes into having every vegetable under the sun available to me at wall mart in the heart of a mid-west winter. If everyone bought local organic, we would save BILLIONS on fossil fuels. Heck, it's one of pro arguments for it.
The shipping cost is huge. I heard someone say that the In&Out cheeseburger is the quintessential product of the industrial age. No other time in history would have fresh meat, sliced tomato and onion, and cheese all on the same plate. Still, shipping costs are a reason to buy local, not organic. Someone already pointed out that "organic" farming has very high opportunity costs- an additional point is that "organic" pesticides (such as spraying plants with oil) are non-discriminatory and may have a large impact on the populations of beneficial insects.

In my opinion the FDA is exceptionally questionable. One example of many; They consider high fructose corn syrup "natural". HFCS is a molecularly compromised sugar that is found no wear in nature. It's synthetically made from a corn base, and can't be metabolized as easily as sucrose. Our bodies just don't know what the hell to do with it. But alas, it's natural.
This is by far the least sensible thing that you've said. HFCS is no more "synthetic" than the maltose that you extract from grain. It is composed of fructose and glucose sugars in approximately the same amounts as honey- the reason that the Chinese and others use HFCS to stretch honey is because they are so similar.

Your "easily digested" sucrose is simply glucose and fructose bound together; rather than being easier to digest, it takes the body an extra step to cleave the di-saccharide bond. There is no such thing as a "molecularly compromised sugar". That's not even an actual term- if a sugar were molecularly compromised, it would no longer be a sugar.

I also do not use any Teflon in my brewing/cooking...
That seems unnecessarily cautious... As long as you keep it below 500 degrees, Teflon is one of the most inert substances that we have ever been able to make. I'd be less worried about cooking on Teflon than on copper or aluminum (aluminum has been casually linked to neuro problems, for example).

- We have planted hops and I think some 2-row barley is not far off in the distance either, as well as other adjuncts that we use. ie. Irish moss, heather flowers. We do not use any chemicals or unnatural items to produce these things.
Cool. I grow hops, and grew buckwheat this year. Next year I think I'll do more buckwheat and some barley.
 

Zamial

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My wife never understands why I argue on the internet...
You are not arguing to me this is like a zombie rez thread and a discussion. Since you did not rez the thread to try advertize SPAM and you quoted me I will be happy to partcipate. FWIW When I read my quote I laughed REALLY REALLY hard, I will explain below...

There's some good stuff in this thread. I homemake a lot of things that we use, and we make an effort to buy local and in season, to preserve, and to develop relationships with the actual people who grow the food that we but. I respect some of the ideals in this thread, but I'm really bugged by a few things:

I use all organic, naturally derived hormones when injecting my livestock. I also feed them offal from the previous slaughter. Would you eat my lamb?
Please send me an address where I can show up with some mint and olive oil, heck I will even bring some hummus and yogurt or I can PM you with my shipping address... My biggest concern is antibotics not hormones, well not ALL hormones...

That's called the Appeal to Nature fallacy.

The shipping cost is huge. I heard someone say that the In&Out cheeseburger is the quintessential product of the industrial age. No other time in history would have fresh meat, sliced tomato and onion, and cheese all on the same plate. Still, shipping costs are a reason to buy local, not organic. Someone already pointed out that "organic" farming has very high opportunity costs- an additional point is that "organic" pesticides (such as spraying plants with oil) are non-discriminatory and may have a large impact on the populations of beneficial insects..
Just because something is labeled "organic" does not intantly make it better for you. Cow urine is organic and is sometimes sprayed onto food as a natural pesticide...no thanks...I would much rather have the lamb...


This is by far the least sensible thing that you've said. HFCS is no more "synthetic" than the maltose that you extract from grain. It is composed of fructose and glucose sugars in approximately the same amounts as honey- the reason that the Chinese and others use HFCS to stretch honey is because they are so similar.
Your "easily digested" sucrose is simply glucose and fructose bound together; rather than being easier to digest, it takes the body an extra step to cleave the di-saccharide bond. There is no such thing as a "molecularly compromised sugar". That's not even an actual term- if a sugar were molecularly compromised, it would no longer be a sugar.
I perfer natural cane sugar myself. I have even started to play with the idea of soda making to get away from HFCS.


That seems unnecessarily cautious... As long as you keep it below 500 degrees, Teflon is one of the most inert substances that we have ever been able to make. I'd be less worried about cooking on Teflon than on copper or aluminum (aluminum has been casually linked to neuro problems, for example).
I agree that aluminum is bad I personally do not own any cookware that is aluminum. Teflon is REALLY bad. Quick history lesson. Teflon is made and produced by the DOW chemical corp. They own the patent on it. Teflon has been found in every human being on Earth and even in animals where no teflon should even be possible to get to them, like Polar bears. Do not be overly concerned the DOW chemical corporation has deemed you "acceptible losses" and will continue making chemicals.

Cool. I grow hops, and grew buckwheat this year. Next year I think I'll do more buckwheat and some barley.
When I commented originally about the garden I was still VERY new to the idea of a brew garden and brewing in general. I thought Irish moss was a floral thing not Red Kelp, comming from being around a lot of gardeners I thought I could grow some...that still makes me laugh... I also have pretty much given up on the idea of growing my own barley because home malting is a huge undertaking to make it worth the effort. I do have 3 hop varities growing and plan to double the hop garden this spring and add 2 more varities. I do not spray anything but well water on anything I plan to ingest.
 

weirdboy

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The shipping cost is huge. I heard someone say that the In&Out cheeseburger is the quintessential product of the industrial age. No other time in history would have fresh meat, sliced tomato and onion, and cheese all on the same plate.
This is a terrible example, since they locally source their ingredients.
 

plumbob

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I'd just like to say that Organic food != Better for you.

Take for example phosphate fertilizers. An essential element to growing healthy crops of all sorts. In many cases that means manure, which is most definetly organic. However if it is a product to be consumed raw (most leafy vegetables, mellons, fruits, tobacco, etc.) it means mineral fertilizer.

Now, these minerals as they come out of the ground are rather dirty and contaminated with all sorts of stuff you don't want to eat, in organic farming they are powdered and spread on the field more or less unmodified. Conventional farmers modify and purify these compounds such that they remove most of the contaminants.

In the particular case of tobacco, organically grown tobacco is substantially higher in Polonium (strongly implicated in lung, mouth, and throat cancers) than conventionally grown because of the way phosphate fertilizer is used. Thus smokers who may be choosing an additive free, organically grown product for supposed health reasons are in fact buying an even more toxic version of an already toxic product.

This is obviously a limited example, but the premise holds. There are many 100% natural and organic things in this world that are quite deadly. Some of those things make their way into or onto "organic" products and result in a product that is worse for you than an conventional one.
 

plumbob

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I agree that aluminum is bad I personally do not own any cookware that is aluminum. Teflon is REALLY bad. Quick history lesson. Teflon is made and produced by the DOW chemical corp. They own the patent on it. Teflon has been found in every human being on Earth and even in animals where no teflon should even be possible to get to them, like Polar bears. Do not be overly concerned the DOW chemical corporation has deemed you "acceptible losses" and will continue making chemicals.
Aluminum (the 8th most common element on earth) is not of any great consequence as far as toxicity. Acute toxicity only occurs at about 500g for the average adult. That would be eating just over a pound of powdered aluminum all at once. For a reference point, table salt is twice as toxic, caffeine ten times so, and sodium fluoride (the stuff in toothpaste) is 100x as toxic.

Over the long term, aluminum does compete with Calcium in the bones and nervous system, while that is true, your body isn't keen on absorbing it in the first place. Even if Aluminum were something to get worked up over, your level of exposure to it is far far greater from antiperspirants, antacids, and depending on where you live groundwater, than from your cookware.
 

Reno_eNVy

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plumbob said:
Aluminum (the 8th most common element on earth) is not of any great consequence as far as toxicity. Acute toxicity only occurs at about 500g for the average adult. That would be eating just over a pound of powdered aluminum all at once. For a reference point, table salt is twice as toxic, caffeine ten times so, and sodium fluoride (the stuff in toothpaste) is 100x as toxic.

Over the long term, aluminum does compete with Calcium in the bones and nervous system, while that is true, your body isn't keen on absorbing it in the first place. Even if Aluminum were something to get worked up over, your level of exposure to it is far far greater from antiperspirants, antacids, and depending on where you live groundwater, than from your cookware.
Quoted for truth
 

weirdboy

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And you completely missed the point.
Well, maybe you'd better explain it to me.


I thought "quintessential product of the industrial age" implied that all these ingredients wouldn't be available through local sources. Luckily In-n-Out is based in California which has a robust agricultural industry that is able to supply everything that goes on a hamburger.
 

JefeTheVol

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Holy, busted thread batman...its back!!! I got an email about this thread and I was like "Who hacked my account and posted a bunch of organic food comments?"

Then I was like, "Oh, I did....back in 2010" I got a good laugh from it. :)
 

dwarven_stout

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Well, maybe you'd better explain it to me.


I thought "quintessential product of the industrial age" implied that all these ingredients wouldn't be available through local sources. Luckily In-n-Out is based in California which has a robust agricultural industry that is able to supply everything that goes on a hamburger.
"Local" for In&Out means "within a day's truck ride of a central facility", which I guess makes it depend on your definition of local (and on where the foodstuffs at that facility came from). That aside, I'm pretty sure that even California's vaunted agricultural paradise doesn't produce commercial tomatoes in February.

The point is that there has been no prior time in history that provides raw meat, cheese, tomatoes and lettuce from any source, "local" or otherwise, on every single day in the year.
 

ChillWill

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z987k said:
PVPPP is plastic as said above and I've always wondered about it. It's crazy effective though.
We recently switched to that at work and silica hydragel, our beer is insanely clear. We centifuge it out and worked with a lab to test it and all seems ok.
 

Fizzycist

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There are so many things out there that minutely increase your chance of cancer, but you'd make yourself miserable trying to dodge it all for that extra 0.004% chance. For example, every small dose of radiation you get is a small chance of cancer. We get plenty of it from the sun, dirt, food we eat, and so on. You can decrease what you get by moving to lower elevation, away from regions with high natural uranium ore, changing your diet to avoid bananas etc. But the cumulative effect of that change is less than what you get from a dental x-ray, or flying across the country on an airliner. And then, all that is just chance! Plenty of people with low risk factors get cancer, plenty of people with high risk dodge it. The fact that you've already had it pretty much wipes out any other consideration. So I'm with the others here. RDWHAHB.

Sorry for the essay.
 

dgremark

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If your want to get really healthy, you can become a Level 5 vegan. I hear they don't eat anything that casts a shadow....:mug:
My parents are on it and have been for over a year. My Mom has taken high BP meds for the last 30+ years and the doc took her off last month! They are both in there 80's and really in good shape. I think it has more to do with genetics that diet! We have family members that have lived to 100+ drank daily and ate meat every day! LOL

GL and I pray for you!
 

z987k

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We recently switched to that at work and silica hydragel, our beer is insanely clear. We centifuge it out and worked with a lab to test it and all seems ok.
Curious as to why you centrifuge it out? It's been found to be entirely harmless, except for a few extremely rare allergies.... but this is the stuff that pill capsules are made of. A person would have to have never taken a pill before to not know. It's used in a lot of medical applications as well.
 

ChillWill

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z987k said:
Curious as to why you centrifuge it out? It's been found to be entirely harmless, except for a few extremely rare allergies.... but this is the stuff that pill capsules are made of. A person would have to have never taken a pill before to not know. It's used in a lot of medical applications as well.
I thought it made you a bit ill? Also, we don't filter the beer, so it's also to clean it up nicely as that stuff doesn't drag everything out of suspension to to point where it can be dumped out of the bottom of the tank.
 

AiredAle

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I believe most capsules are made of gelatin not silica hydrogel, which is a finely divided solid consisting of silicon dioxide. It is used as a dessicant, and in beer it complexes with haze particles, so that they grow bigger and settle out faster.
 
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