Adding sugar to your beer is NOT going to make it taste like freakin' cider.

[Endovelico]

Bookmark'd.

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

PseudoChef - Nice write up and thank you for making a very sound argument.
Personally I prefer to use honey, I don't know if I can actually taste any difference but it must be an subconscious thing. Even then I try not to go over 10% of the fermentables just because I like rich and full beers.

 

[Malticulous]

I had some awful of flavors to a can+kilo kit I did fifteen years ago. I think I doubled the sugar. The next can kit I did I used DME (even for primming) and it was much better. Life got in the way and I just recently started to brew again.

I have no problems with using sugar but it needs to have a purpose in the recipe.

 

[Teacher]

Count me among the pro-sugar crowd. My favorite beer is a RyePA with .75 lb sugar and Notty's, which results in a nice dry beer to allow the rye and hop flavors to shine...and absolutely no cidery flavors. I've used up to 1.25-1.5 lbs (not sure) with no problems. I'm about to brew a bastardized Belgian Golden (I'm gonna use a little pale malt to increase the body a little) using 2 pounds and am sure it will be great.

 

[bkov]

thank you, finally some support for sugar. I tried arguing this a few months ago and every1 was against it

 

[MrNate]

All right, I'm tired of people saying that adding some type of sugar (be it cane, corn, whatever) is going to make it taste like Cider. I would even bet that most people have never tried doing this and are just hopping on this anti-sugar bandwagon because it's the "in" thing to do.

Well, duh... It's a homebrewing forum. Making up random crap and arguing about it is really our main hobby. Homebrewing is just an offshoot.

 

[Bob]

Sugar can be quite appropriate. Fuller's London Pride, for example, uses sugar, along with many well-regarded real ales.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Seabee John]

Yea for sugar! Lets all brew a batch with nothing but sugar and yeast! Just kidding, but after reading this thread it does give me enough data to at leased investigate the reasons for using sugar. The only sugar I've ever used was dark brown sugar in my nut brown ale recipe. It's added a bit more taste and obviously a bump in ABV. I've brewed a batch without the brown sugar because I wanted to see what it would taste like without it. I was surprised to find that it was not as "thin" and when it came to the taste there was barely a noticeable difference. here's the recipe:

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.23 %
1.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.22 %
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5.48 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2.74 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.37 %
2.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (3 min) Hops 1.0 IBU
2.00 lb Brown Sugar, Dark (50.0 SRM) Sugar 10.96 %
1 Pkgs Edinburgh Ale (White Labs #WLP028) Yeast-Ale
2 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale

I've also substituted the sugar for honey pound for pound. It's had similar but noticeable results. But, I'll get to the point or rather my question:

Outside of a recipe that looks for a certain result albeit flavor, color, or the obligatory bump in ABV, why would you use sugar when you can get the same results with the proper blend of malt?

 

[dontman]

Yea for sugar! Lets all brew a batch with nothing but sugar and yeast! Just kidding, but after reading this thread it does give me enough data to at leased investigate the reasons for using sugar. The only sugar I've ever used was dark brown sugar in my nut brown ale recipe. It's added a bit more taste and obviously a bump in ABV. I've brewed a batch without the brown sugar because I wanted to see what it would taste like without it. I was surprised to find that it was not as "thin" and when it came to the taste there was barely a noticeable difference. here's the recipe:

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.23 %
1.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 8.22 %
1.00 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5.48 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2.74 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.37 %
2.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (3 min) Hops 1.0 IBU
2.00 lb Brown Sugar, Dark (50.0 SRM) Sugar 10.96 %
1 Pkgs Edinburgh Ale (White Labs #WLP028) Yeast-Ale
2 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale

I've also substituted the sugar for honey pound for pound. It's had similar but noticeable results. But, I'll get to the point or rather my question:

Outside of a recipe that looks for a certain result albeit flavor, color, or the obligatory bump in ABV, why would you use sugar when you can get the same results with the proper blend of malt?

Holy Schnikes! That's a big brown beer! Prolly the biggest ever. Oh wait, is that for a 10Gal batch? I notice a lot of Chocolate malt in this beer. What's the SRM turn out to be? I'll bet its got preternatural head retention though.

I'm brewing a English brown next weekend so I'm exploring my options.

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

Well, duh... It's a homebrewing forum. Making up random crap and arguing about it is really our main hobby. Homebrewing is just an offshoot.

I strongly disagree and fully disapprove that this would ever happen here!
I think 90 percent of the statistics here are made up 50 percent of the time.

 

[Seabee John]

Holy Schnikes! That's a big brown beer! Prolly the biggest ever. Oh wait, is that for a 10Gal batch? I notice a lot of Chocolate malt in this beer. What's the SRM turn out to be? I'll bet its got preternatural head retention though.

I'm brewing a English brown next weekend so I'm exploring my options.

here's the rest of the digs:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.86 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 21.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 24.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 16.25 lb
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 20.31 qt of water at 129.3 F 122.0 F
45 min Saccharification Heat to 154.0 F over 15 min 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F

OG was 1.051
FG was 1.012

I'll PM you with the whole recipe including my notes

 

[Danek]

Outside of a recipe that looks for a certain result albeit flavor, color, or the obligatory bump in ABV, why would you use sugar when you can get the same results with the proper blend of malt?

I think sugar is cheaper. Sometimes you might want to dry out a beer, and all the other stuff mentioned in this thread. But most commonly, when it gets recommended in large amounts, it's by people for whom cost is a slightly higher priority than absolute quality. Which is fair enough if that's what you're after, though I'd guess most on here would stick to 10% or less.

 

[dontman]

Outside of a recipe that looks for a certain result albeit flavor, color, or the obligatory bump in ABV, why would you use sugar when you can get the same results with the proper blend of malt?

(thanks for the recipe info)

As far as this question, I hope that cost does not play a real factor in most people's decision to use sugar.

If you look at it from a craftsman's point of view sugar and every adjunct is a tool to achieve a purpose. The purpose of sugar most often is to boost ABV. There is nothing wrong with this as a motivator. You can only go so big with malt before you start going too heavy. In my experience the biggest mistake amateur brewers make is to go too malty and even (gasp) too hoppy.

When I build recipes I keep a close eye on the FG. This is the prime determining factor in whether people will go back for a second or third beer I believe. If I see my FG creeping up above 1.017 I am going to start thinking about adding a drying adjunct like sugar or honey.

It will lower the perceived heaviness of the malt and clean up the palate. I've got a 9.6% Belgian Strong in primary right now that needed a lot of sugar (2 pounds honey, 1 pound belgian light) just to balance the 17 pounds of malt in it.

Of course with all of that said I am a fan of simply crafting the recipe for balance and deliciousness and letting the ABV fall where it may.

 

[Endovelico]

I bottled my first two mini batches some weeks ago, so i guess i will find out about this 'cidery flavour' myth.

 

[wowzers]

I just made a batch using some leftover malt extract i had laying around. The total recipe was:

3.3lb gold Liquid extract
approximately 2lb or corn sugar
1oz cluster hops
coopers dry ale yeast

I just wanted to make a cheap beer with some stuff I had laying around. I will let you know if i get a "cidery" taste in this batch. Cheers.

 

[cmgreczyn]

endovelico and wowzers, how did these batches turn out?

 

[wowzers]

I just put it in the keg about two hours ago. I sampled a small portion right away, and I am going to have to say it is terrible. Final verdict will have to come in a day or two, but right now it is absolutely "cidery". Will see how it taste ice cold and carbed though. Kind of sucks because I brewed it for a big concert this weekend and now I don't want to bring it.

 

[cmgreczyn]

and I am going to have to say it is terrible.

ouch. i've had some brews that i've just kind of thrown together with leftover stuff, not having a concept of how they'd turn out, and they seem to be similar in flavor to that stuff. maybe with some time though . . .

 

[yeoldebrewer]

FWIW, I just finished drinking a two gallon batch of modified kit stout, brewed with about 25 percent adjunct sugars. It was brewed back on Oct. 3. Six weeks out, it was still distinctly sweet. By the time I got around to the last of it (a week ago) the taste was very dry with almost too little sweetness. And the yeast used is considered to be of low attenuation.

 

[BelgianWannabe]

while i agree that you can make perfectly good beer with cane/corn sugar, i do know after much reading (articles from ale street news, and the book "the beer diet") that all malt beers are healthier for you.

they say an all malt dark ale after dinner is excellent for your digestive system, and loaded with antioxidants and polyphenols.....
of course, this is just based on things i read, i'm not stating it as fact, just sharing what i have read.

 

[BelgianWannabe]

FWIW, I just finished drinking a two gallon batch of modified kit stout.

in one sitting?
hah...kidding.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Ya Huh.

My LHBS sez it will, and they know EVERYTHING.

 

[BeerPressure]

I heard somebody say this at the LHBS tonight. I simply said "that's a myth" and they said oohhh nooo. I just said oh alright whatever you guys say. Zainasheff would not recommend it in his recipes if it did. I added cane sugar to dry out my belgian golden strong which is still in primary. But, I do not believe it makes it taste like cider.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Of course not. It's a Belgian strong...it needs to be lightened with something. You used a small amount...you didn't use it for 40% of the grist, or it would taste like ass.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I just did a bitter where I replaced 1lb of malt in a ten gallon batch with 1lb of dark brown sugar. I have just tasted it after two weeks in the fermenter (I taste all the way through the process) This beer is going to turn out just fine. I think i will be keeping the sugar, but putting that pound of malt back in, also.......Unless of course it develops differently before I next brew.

 

[s3n8]

One lb in a ten gallon batch will barely be noticeable in a bitter. You might get a hint of molasses after a year and hops mellow out. I used 2lb of dark brown sugar in a big porter, and I think it added a lot of character.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

A year!!? No way am I keeping a bitter that long! It's meant to be drunk young, and I'm so impatient I get demonstrations outside my house from the stem cell people!

 

[BarleyWater]

I just did a bitter where I replaced 1lb of malt in a ten gallon batch with 1lb of dark brown sugar. I have just tasted it after two weeks in the fermenter (I taste all the way through the process) This beer is going to turn out just fine. I think i will be keeping the sugar, but putting that pound of malt back in, also.......Unless of course it develops differently before I next brew.

I just did a southern english brown (5 gallon batch) and subbed out some malt for a half pound of dark brown sugar and thought the same thing, next time keep the malt. It came out good, but it did dry it out a bit more than I had anticipated. Also didn't add as much molasses flavor as I wanted, maybe next time, keep the malt and use 1lb.

 

[bkov]

sugar doesnt cause cider flavors that a myth that was started before we had such great yeasts and variety available.

Cidery flavors can come from unhealthy yeast or unfinished ferments (I believe acetyldehyde can be a step in the conversion of sugar to ethanol). Using large amounts of sugar can be detrimental to the yeast if you don't make up for the missing nutrients, but at 20% this hasn't been necessary for me.

 

[justbrewit]

i usually use some sort of non-malt sugars in my beers. more of the time its candi sugar, honey or molasses. i've never used table sugar but my first batch was a kit, only one can of lme and 5 lbs of corn sugar. one taste of that and i knew i could do better. that was the only batch that ever tasted like cider. i agree with most on here. sugars have thier place in beer. just not in excess.