Adding calcium only?

[timsch]

I made a batch of Hefeweizen this weekend and was looking for water profile recommendations. One I ran across showed 50ppm Ca and very little else. AFIAK I can add Ca via CaCl or gypsum, and some others as well, but these always add other elements. End result is that my water profile also had 45ppm sulfate and 52ppm chloride.

Is there something I'm missing? I've been treating RO water for years now, but frequently am adding both lactic acid and pickling lime to try to balance my desired water profile and mash pH. I am aware that adding both is generally recommended against since they counter act each other. How does everyone else deal with this issue?

 

[Big Monk]

I made a batch of Hefeweizen this weekend and was looking for water profile recommendations. One I ran across showed 50ppm Ca and very little else. AFIAK I can add Ca via CaCl or gypsum, and some others as well, but these always add other elements. End result is that my water profile also had 45ppm sulfate and 52ppm chloride.

Is there something I'm missing? I've been treating RO water for years now, but frequently am adding both lactic acid and pickling lime to try to balance my desired water profile and mash pH. I am aware that adding both is generally recommended against since they counter act each other. How does everyone else deal with this issue?

Can you post the profile you are trying to use?

I’d caution trying to copy any water profile, especially if it leads you to try and reduce and increase alkalinity simultaneously. That should be a red flag for you.

Why would you want to add an acid and a base in the same mash? This mostly happens when folks try to match the bicarbonate values posted in these profiles. My opinion is ignore the alkalinity of the water profile and target just the flavor ions while also reducing the alkalinity of the ACTUAL water you are using.

 

[Vale71]

You probably misunderstood the directions. You can't add pure calcium to water, you have to add a soluble salt. CaCl2 and CaSO4 are the most commonly used in the food industry and in the brewing industry as well.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Adding Ca(OH)2, which is calcium hydroxide, otherwise known as pickling lime, or slaked lime, will add a ton of calcium without introducing any chloride or sulfate. It only requires that the OH- ion component be neutralized via an acid.

 

[IslandLizard]

You probably misunderstood the directions. You can't add pure calcium to water, you have to add a soluble salt. CaCl2 and CaSO4 are the most commonly used in the food industry and in the brewing industry as well.

How about Calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2?
Perhaps with some (extra) Phosphoric or Lactic acid to keep the pH in range.

 

[Vale71]

So your plan not to add a Ca salt is to actually mix an acid and a base?
Chemistry 101: acid + base = salt + water



On a serious note, this is done in very large systems where actually adding the salts to the brewing liquor would be impractical (think hundreds and hundreds of BBLs). Instead, the acid and base are dosed inline in liquid form as part of the water treatment process so that the brewing liquor comes out already pre-mixed with the required amount of Ca salt.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So your plan not to add a Ca salt is to actually mix an acid and a base?
Chemistry 101: acid + base = salt + water

Correct! With Phosphoric Acid you would get: 2H3P04 + 3Ca(OH)2 = 6H20 + Ca3(PO4)2

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

With Phosphoric Acid you would get: 2H3P04 + 3Ca(OH)2 = 6H20 + Ca3(PO4)2

Research pursued only beginning yesterday has shown me that Ca3(PO4)2 is only soluble in water at up to 20 ppm, with the rest dropping out as a precipitate. So perhaps from this it can be concluded that achieving high levels of calcium ions via adding exclusively calcium hydroxide and then neutralizing its alkalinity with phosphoric acid is not actually possible, and that only a portion of ones desired calcium ion concentration can be achieved thereby, with additional calcium ions still requiring the addition of calcium chloride and/or gypsum.

PS: Calcium lactate is only on the order of 15%-25% as soluble as tri-calcium phosphate, so even less calcium ions can be added to a water solution via first adding calcium hydroxide and subsequently neutralizing the rise in alkalinity with lactic acid.

PPS: Solubility may differ in wort vs. water for either of the above. To what extent is unknown.

Subject to correction by someone more knowledgeable of the use of calcium hydroxide in brewing than myself, I'm no longer quite as enthused about introducing loads of calcium ions to light colored beer worts via the use of calcium hydroxide as I was previous to this very recent research. But if the additional alkalinity is actually needed, such as for Porters and Stouts, then its use is still warranted.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I came across an old peer reviewed document from 1963 which shows that one persons calcium addition is not necessarily equivalent to anothers, even if all else sans alkalinity is held equal. The culprit here is ones initial mash water alkalinity. The researchers used alkalinity derived from baking soda, but I would surmise that the alkalinities source matters little as to the outcome. Here is a partial of their final beer analyticals which I culled from the congress mash water data for beers which were all using the exact same malt (I.E., same as to both lot and weight) and volume of mash water. See table # 3 on page 326.

Zero added calcium, and zero alkalinity: Final beer calcium = 35 ppm (the baseline for the calcium present within the malt itself)
50 ppm added calcium, and zero alkalinity: Final beer calcium = 52 ppm (= 33 ppm of added calcium that precipitated out)
100 ppm added calcium, and zero alkalinity: Final beer calcium = 76 ppm (= 59 ppm of added calcium that precipitated out)
100 ppm added calcium, and 100 ppm alkalinity: Final beer calcium = 64 ppm (= 71 ppm of added calcium that precipitated out)
100 ppm added calcium, and 200 ppm alkalinity: Final beer calcium = 53 ppm (= 82 ppm of added calcium that precipitated out)

Link to the article: Brewery Liquor Composition

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The only way to avoid the above revealed calcium conundrum appears to me to be to apply AJ's "Zero Alkalinity Method", whereby to get rid of any present alkalinity first, then mineralize the brewing water afterward.

 

[timsch]

Adding Ca(OH)2, which is calcium hydroxide, otherwise known as pickling lime, or slaked lime, will add a ton of calcium without introducing any chloride or sulfate. It only requires that the OH- ion component be neutralized via an acid.

That is what I have been doing for years now, which I gathered from some recent posts I'd read that it was [not] recommended, which lead to this post. After reading the responses here, It looks like I should continue as I have been.