Adding brown sugar + yeast after one week of primary to increase banana/bubblegum

[rafaelpinto]

Hey guys,

I am planning to brew light colored weizenbock (like Vitus), with brown sugar and age it with some sort of wood (maybe Amburana, I love it). I am also thinking on adding some vanilla. Id like it to have noticeable banana and bubble-gum aromas, but balance it with other stuff (maybe a light dry hop with some wood-earthy hops like Simcoe)...

So, here is my question: after 7 days of primary fermentation, I will add an amount of brown sugar + more yeast. Will that increase the amount of esters? Will that increase bubble gum and banana or only pump up alcohol?

Any tips or things I am missing?

 

[duboman]

The bubble gum/banana flavor would come from the yeast, is suggest WY3068 Hefe strain and ferment it at 68.

There really shouldn't be a need to add more yeast.

The brown sugar will add a bit of color and bump the ABV but not much else. Simply boil it up, cool and pitch as fermentation begins to slow.


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[cluckk]

The brown sugar is going to simply go to produce color and alcohol with a slight rummy character, depending on how dark the sugar is and how much is added.

Your esters are going to come from yeast (as duboman said), and from fermentation temperature.

You can also increase ester production by stressing the yeast with lower aeration. I've read that adding olive oil instead of air can increase esters/fruitiness.

 

[rafaelpinto]

Alright, I know the flavors I want will come from yeast. Thats why I proposed adding more yeast and sugar, since those aromatic components come from early fermentation.

In that text (http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/article_info.php?articles_id=122) the author says to increase dextrine/glucose of wort if you want banana phenols. So, the brown sugar is a way of adding more dextrose, istn it?

But the author also says to under pitch... so Id better just stick with 1 pack of dry yeast or even less.

 

[duboman]

I may be wrong but I'm not familiar with any dry strains of Hefe yeast which would give you the banana notes even with under pitching. bubble gum would come from typical Belgian strains fermented high but dry strains are limited in selection.

You might want to research white labs or wyeast liquid strains and go with one of those. Yes, under pitching can increase both of those notes but the profile has to be there in the first place. For example, you could under pitch 05 but it's not going to give you those flavors because you under pitched.

As for the brown sugar, other than what's already been mentioned, I've never experienced it producing the flavors you're looking for in any process.


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[rafaelpinto]

Yeah, I have never used liquid yeast... Since I brew 5gal batches I think wont need to make a starter and aerate too much. Maybe just drop the vial in there will work, Ill do some research.

I guess I will go for maltodextrine or melanoidin malt to increase banana as well. Thanks guys!

 

[duboman]

Yeah, I have never used liquid yeast... Since I brew 5gal batches I think wont need to make a starter and aerate too much. Maybe just drop the vial in there will work, Ill do some research.

I guess I will go for maltodextrine or melanoidin malt to increase banana as well. Thanks guys!

Making a starter is easy and if your beer is over 1.035 you need a starter for a 5 gal batch IMO, check mrmalty.com for proper pitch rate

Melanoiden malt nor malto dextrine will provide what your looking for neither. Those flavors are derived by the yeast.


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[rafaelpinto]

Melanoiden malt nor malto dextrine will provide what your looking for neither. Those flavors are derived by the yeast.

Thanks for the reply, duboman. Of course the flavors will come from yeast, but according the text I mentioned and according to this BYO text (https://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/item/2265-german-hefeweizen-style-profile) increasing the ratio of glucose to maltose on wort will increase the production of isoamyl acetate, which is the banana flavor esther.

 

[solbes]

Maltodextrine gives extra body to beers in an unfermentable sugar form. I've used it and it's pretty much flavorless. They also can increase the...uh...beer farts one may get after drinking said beer. Melanoidin can add an extra malty note to beers. Agree with duboman, these are not going to help you. I think the maltose thats referred to in the BYO article is present in all forms of barley/wheat derived starch conversion.

I am guessing you get plenty of banana and bubble gum from what Hefe yeast you initially pitch. The esters are formed both during intial yeast reproduction and can be affected by fermentation temperature. Even a restrained temp profile (pitching in low 60's, ramping over days to 65-67) should give you those aromas. No need to add sugar, extra yeast, etc.

This is just my two pennies of advice (feel free to ignore), but adding wood, simple sugars, vanilla, and dry hops are all potential distractions from what characteristics you are aiming for in your Weizenbock ester profile. I'm sure it'll make good beer, but it may be pretty complex to pick out the flavors you are trying to enhance.

 

[duboman]

Maltodextrine gives extra body to beers in an unfermentable sugar form. They also can increase the...uh...beer farts one may get after drinking said beer. Melanoidin can add an extra malty note to beers. Agree with duboman, these are not going to help you. I think the maltose thats referred to in the BYO article is present in all forms of barley/wheat derived starch conversion.



I am guessing you get plenty of banana and bubble gum from what Hefe yeast you initially pitch. The esters are formed both during intial yeast reproduction and can be affected by fermentation temperature. Even a restrained temp profile (pitching in low 60's, ramping over days to 65-67) should give you those aromas. No need to add sugar, extra yeast, etc.



This is just my two pennies of advice (feel free to ignore), but adding wood, simple sugars, vanilla, and dry hops are all potential distractions from what characteristics you are aiming for in your Weizenbock ester profile. I'm sure it'll make good beer, but it may be pretty complex to pick out the flavors you are trying to enhance.

Totally agree, pretty spot on!


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[cluckk]

Alright, I know the flavors I want will come from yeast. Thats why I proposed adding more yeast and sugar, since those aromatic components come from early fermentation.

In that text (http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catalog/article_info.php?articles_id=122) the author says to increase dextrine/glucose of wort if you want banana phenols. So, the brown sugar is a way of adding more dextrose, istn it?

But the author also says to under pitch... so Id better just stick with 1 pack of dry yeast or even less.

(1) I'm pretty sure the author is speaking of adding the dextrose to the boil.
(2) He recommends an alternative of underaerating the yeast to stress them.
(3) The yeast he mentions are good choices for more of the banana esters.

I think you are toying with the possibility of bad things when you try to manipulate the yeast well into an already near complete fermentation. I understand that you want to put in brown sugar and fresh yeast to kick off new fermentation to add more flavors to the beer. However, understand that the sugars you are adding are very simple sugars and other than a bit of possibly molasses flavor you will mostly get alcohol and little else. Yes, you might stress the yeast in just the right way to cause the reaction you want, however, keep in mind that with such simple sugars even stressed yeast are going to have little reason to contribute such flavors.

The author there is talking about how to increase these flavors in a fresh batch of wort by changing the sugars in the kettle before fermentation and then by manipulating the beginning of a fresh fermentation. You are talking about taking an almost finished beer and then tweaking it. These are two very different things. Go ahead and try it if you like. That is the spirit of homebrewing. Make sure to come back and tell us how it works. Personally, I'd rather have one acceptable beer in the hand than risk ruining it trying to coax a different beer from the fermenter.

Why not just wait and use these techniques on your next batch?

Added: Oh and by the way, once you push your gravity higher, stressing the yeast too far also has the danger of producing fusels.

 

[rafaelpinto]

The author there is talking about how to increase these flavors in a fresh batch of wort by changing the sugars in the kettle before fermentation and then by manipulating the beginning of a fresh fermentation. You are talking about taking an almost finished beer and then tweaking it.

Yeah, I had already abandoned the idea of adding sugar and more yeast. I am interested, however, on raising that other sugars levels in order to achieve a stronger banana smell.

The idea is not to have a "banana bomb", but a wood aged beer where you can still pick the characteristics that make up a german wheat beer.

Thanks for the info, guys. I will come back with the results