Acid blend???

[Newsman]

So my last batch was criticized at an event I took it to as "too sweet -- not enough acidity." So, picked up a small bottle of acid blend and I'm planning on adding some. Now I'm just using store-bought apple juice (not cider.) How much acid blend should I add to add a touch of acidity?

 

[Maylar]

I was hoping someone would respond to this, I'm curious as well.

These guys say do it by taste:

https://beerbrew.com/adjusting-finished-cider-1/

 

[Yooper]

So my last batch was criticized at an event I took it to as "too sweet -- not enough acidity." So, picked up a small bottle of acid blend and I'm planning on adding some. Now I'm just using store-bought apple juice (not cider.) How much acid blend should I add to add a touch of acidity?

It really depends. We pressed some cider yesterday, and it had plenty of acid bite to it so I told the guy making the hard cider out of it to "wait and see".

What I often do is take out a sample of the finished cider, and then add some acid blend and/or tannin to taste and compare it to the original sample before deciding on how much to add, if any. You can get a really good idea of what the cider needs to fix it, if it's "flabby" or "flat" or "bland", or if it's too acidic, etc, if you wait until it's finished before adjusting the flavors.

 

[andrewmaixner]

I can tell you from experience that a can of frozen apple concentrate will give a good malic acid bite to a bland cider. Too much in my case, had to use more sugar to balance it.

 

[chevalcider]

It really depends. We pressed some cider yesterday, and it had plenty of acid bite to it so I told the guy making the hard cider out of it to "wait and see".

What I often do is take out a sample of the finished cider, and then add some acid blend and/or tannin to taste and compare it to the original sample before deciding on how much to add, if any. You can get a really good idea of what the cider needs to fix it, if it's "flabby" or "flat" or "bland", or if it's too acidic, etc, if you wait until it's finished before adjusting the flavors.

What is your tannin of choice? I have bland apples. I have been raiding the boulevards for ornamental crabs this past weekend. They are spitters...and tiny! I was hoping for 30-40 gallons of apples in order to have enough to blend back into the batches I have fermenting but they take forever to pick. I resorted to gathering cherry sized apples off of the ground! I hope they provide perceptible tannin. If not I will use a powder.

 

[Yooper]

What is your tannin of choice? I have bland apples. I have been raiding the boulevards for ornamental crabs this past weekend. They are spitters...and tiny! I was hoping for 30-40 gallons of apples in order to have enough to blend back into the batches I have fermenting but they take forever to pick. I resorted to gathering cherry sized apples off of the ground! I hope they provide perceptible tannin. If not I will use a powder.

That's what I use- powdered wine tannin.

 

[Maylar]

It really depends. We pressed some cider yesterday, and it had plenty of acid bite to it so I told the guy making the hard cider out of it to "wait and see".

What I often do is take out a sample of the finished cider, and then add some acid blend and/or tannin to taste and compare it to the original sample before deciding on how much to add, if any. You can get a really good idea of what the cider needs to fix it, if it's "flabby" or "flat" or "bland", or if it's too acidic, etc, if you wait until it's finished before adjusting the flavors.

Flabby, flat, bland <sigh> Guess I have to train my taste buds.

Can pH be used as a guide, or is this strictly a tongue test?

 

[Newsman]

Thanks, all. Guess I'll go back to the LHBS and pick up some wine tannin. :/

 

[Sarge]

I would like to know this as well.

Can pH be used as a guide, or is this strictly a tongue test?

 

[bernardsmith]

I think your mouth is the only viable tool when you are tasting - not least because the amount of acidity a wine (or cider) needs is dependent on the sweetness and the alcohol level, the tannic level and the richness of the fruit flavor. But that said, pH is perhaps not even a good metric. pH measures the STRENGTH of the acids in a solution - not the AMOUNT (you can have a tiny amount of a very strong acid or a huge amount of a very weak acid). And you - and those drinking the cider are looking for the amount of the dominant acids in your cider.

You are interested in the strength of the acids (the pH) when you are fermenting as a pH that is either too high or too low can affect the fermentation itself - and can make it stall, for example. And pH is also useful when you want to know how much free sulfur you need to add when aging your ciders or wines. Free SO2 (from K-meta) acts as an anti-oxidant and the lower the pH (the more acidic the wine) the less SO2 it requires.

A better measure of the amount of acid is what wine makers call TA (or titratable acidity - sometimes referred to as "total acidity" )and they are looking for tartaric acid. (But cider is essentially malic acid and malic acid is weaker than tartaric acid). You can use a pH meter to measure the TA of your cider - (see for example: http://yeastwhisperer.com/uploads/YeastWhisp_Guide_to_TA.pdf)
You are probably looking for a TA of about .67 - .7%

 

[Maylar]

Thanks. The problem I have with this is that I don't know what acid really does or how it affects the taste. My taste buds haven't been trained in what to expect. There's an article on the web somewhere that talks about mixing different amounts of acid blend in some fermented cider and simply doing just that - taste it and see what you like. I think I'll dedicate a quart or so of my next batch for acid tests.

 

[Newsman]

I just added about half a can of lemonaid concentrate to 5 gallons of cider. Adds a bit of bite without overwhelming lemonaid flavor.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks. The problem I have with this is that I don't know what acid really does or how it affects the taste. My taste buds haven't been trained in what to expect. There's an article on the web somewhere that talks about mixing different amounts of acid blend in some fermented cider and simply doing just that - taste it and see what you like. I think I'll dedicate a quart or so of my next batch for acid tests.

That's a good start.

Think of acid blend as salt.

What I mean is, what if you asked me how much salt to put in your spaghetti sauce? The whole thing would depend on the acidity of the tomatoes, the amount of salt already in there, and the amount of other things added, like sugar or wine, to the sauce.

The same is true of wine and cider. If my cider apples were very acidic, I probably don't need any acid blend at all, and may take steps like MLF or potassium carbonate to reduce acid. But if my apples were very sweet with little tannin and not acidic, I"d need to add both acid and tannin.

The answer "to taste" really does apply. If I was with you, I could describe why this cider is flabby, or that one is too acidic, or that one is too tannic. But even then, some of us like a bit more tannin or a bit more acid. It really all comes down to taste.

 

[bmd2k1]

Thanks. The problem I have with this is that I don't know what acid really does or how it affects the taste. My taste buds haven't been trained in what to expect. There's an article on the web somewhere that talks about mixing different amounts of acid blend in some fermented cider and simply doing just that - taste it and see what you like. I think I'll dedicate a quart or so of my next batch for acid tests.

Older thread but pertinent for my purposes

Wondering how much acid blend did ya settle on as the right amount (per gal)? Gonna be doing some testing myself with this latest batch of cider I just took out of primary.

Cheers!

 

[Maylar]

Older thread but pertinent for my purposes

Wondering how much acid blend did ya settle on as the right amount (per gal)? Gonna be doing some testing myself with this latest batch of cider I just took out of primary.

Cheers!

I never really did any experiments, but others here have said 1/4 tsp per gallon. But it would totally depend on what's in the apple juice to start with. I've been keeping track of the pH and titratable acidity of the juices that I've used over the last few years and I find that a TA of 6 g/l (0.6%) is just about right. So that's what I would shoot for if I was going to make any adjustments. And it'd be malic acid, not a blend.

 

[andrewmaixner]

I never really did any experiments, but others here have said 1/4 tsp per gallon. But it would totally depend on what's in the apple juice to start with. I've been keeping track of the pH and titratable acidity of the juices that I've used over the last few years and I find that a TA of 6 g/l (0.6%) is just about right. So that's what I would shoot for if I was going to make any adjustments. And it'd be malic acid, not a blend.

Thanks!
Do you also happen to have experimented with liquid wine tannin (in addition to the acid) in standard store bought juice cider?
Seems that a little of that might also with well as a guideline.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks!
Do you also happen to have experimented with liquid wine tannin (in addition to the acid) in standard store bought juice cider?
Seems that a little of that might also with well as a guideline.

Only briefly. Just for giggles I added about 1/4 tsp of powdered red wine tannin to a cyser I made once and regretted it instantly. It turned the cyser's color DARK. Fortunately it precipitated out mostly and the color came back. Then I discovered this stuff made for whites:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/t...F3YscYvhI-1Or-eUp3aydtZQ8__4_R-xoCO8gQAvD_BwE

But I haven't tried it yet.

The thing is, I'm not experienced enough as a taster to know what the "correct" tannin levels are supposed to be, and measuring it is far more complicated than measuring acid.