Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[TxBigHops]

I guess it is pretty easy to be offensive on the internet.

There are some extremely good IPAs here. Zombie Dust (and others by 3F) obviously, and of course Founders and Bells. But there's a lot more going on, and I don't think it'll be long before folks are talking about the "big famous ones" here. Revolution's flagship Anti-Hero is fantastic, and it headlines several other excellent options. Spiteful's Selfies are for Wieners blows me away (seriously that good), and Half-Acre has some great options by all accounts (I've only had a couple of their's, and they weren't their best). Domaine Dupage's Wobble is very good, and rates very well. Tallgrass is not my favorite of the above, but it doesn't stop me from buying 8-Bit on occasion, and I know it has a loyal fan base. If you haven't had some of these, then let me be the first to tell you - you have bright days ahead, my friend.

I think you make a very good point, and I think what many people are missing is that these "premium" brewers that everyone is glowing about are mostly very VERY small brewers with very limited production. I think it is much more difficult to brew that premium product on a huge scale. Also, aren't a lot of these brews only available on site by the glass or growler fills? Maybe bottling or canning has some impact? You want to find a local beer that rivals those made by HF, Treehouse, Alchemist, Russian River, etc.? Don't look at all the big, popular brewers in your area. Start visiting all the smaller brewers. Just because they haven't been discovered YET doesn't mean they're not brewing amazing beer.

Oh, and since you were naming Midwest brewers, don't forget Toppling Goliath. I'm hoping to get to visit them during my Christmas trip to Iowa.

 

[Braufessor]

Oh, and since you were naming Midwest brewers, don't forget Toppling Goliath. I'm hoping to get to visit them during my Christmas trip to Iowa.

10 minutes from my house..... stop in for a beer, or shoot me a message and I can give you some other great tips for the area and other awesome places in Decorah.

 

[geoffey]

10 minutes from my house..... stop in for a beer, or shoot me a message and I can give you some other great tips for the area and other awesome places in Decorah.

I assume the beers available at the brewery are actually made AT the brewery, which makes them a bit different from what you can get in bottles elsewhere (which are contract brewed and bottled out of FL). I mention this because I believe it's a HUGE difference between the two. I used to make trips to WI to pick up some PsuedoSue but found after several batches that it was no longer worth it. A trip to Decorah needs to be part of my future here soon...

 

[Braufessor]

I assume the beers available at the brewery are actually made AT the brewery, which makes them a bit different from what you can get in bottles elsewhere (which are contract brewed and bottled out of FL). I mention this because I believe it's a HUGE difference between the two. I used to make trips to WI to pick up some PsuedoSue but found after several batches that it was no longer worth it. A trip to Decorah needs to be part of my future here soon...

Yeah.... IMO..... it was somewhat sketchy there for a while for sure. Although, I will say one of the recent batches of Florida Sue seemed better to me than some of the early ones. I think most of the beers are made in Decorah. Some (Dorothy's, Sue, Golden Nugget, Rover) have been done in big batches in Florida at Brewhub. I can't speak for all of them, because I don't buy most of those varieties in bottles. But, yeah, Sue was very disappointing to me too for a while there.
I picked up a case each of Sosus and Sue bombers at the tap room the other day. I thought both were really very good. The Decorah Bombers of Sue definitely had the "old" look back as far as appearance/cloudiness as well, in addition to great flavor and mouthfeel.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Oh, and since you were naming Midwest brewers, don't forget Toppling Goliath. I'm hoping to get to visit them during my Christmas trip to Iowa.

I'm way out of their distribution and I have no excuses to go to Iowa, so it must have slipped my mind. Inexcusable, I know. I can, however, find a rare excuse to go to Munster.

@Braufessor, if I come up with something out of Chicago, can I persuade you to make a swap?

Back onto topic, I do think that Gumballhead has a really amazing mouthfeel. I think I said that on, like, page one of this thread. I wish I could try HF to get a frame of reference, but that's what I'm always shooting for. Of course, Gumballhead has a ton of wheat to accomplish it. I've come close on getting a wheat IPA or APA all the way there, but I've never quite made it. The problem I've had, especially with Conan is overattenuation. I actually have completely given up on Conan for that reason. It really doesn't work for me. I did a Wheat IPA that was, like, 60% wheat, and Conan just ate right through it. It was one dry bastard. Does anyone have tips on that score?

 

[Braufessor]

i have been using conan for everything..... APA's, IPA's, Blonde Ale, Brown Ale, porter..... pretty much my house yeast. I either step it up from Heady Topper Cans or I use GigaYeast. I make a 1L starter 18 hours before I brew, and pitch the entire 1L right in while it is actively fermenting. First generation I always start it in a batch of 1.040 Blonde Ale. Low gravity, low hops. I harvest 6 one pint mason jars of slurry out of the blonde. I make sure I use one of those 6 jars on another blonde (to harvest 6 more jars). The other 5 I use in whatever I want.... usually hoppy brews. I always make a 1L starter and pitch it while actively fermenting. My gravity always ends up around 1.011-1.012 with this method. About perfect FG for my tastes.

 

[geoffey]

There are lots of examples of Conan crapping out on people at 1.020 or higher. It seems to be a really finicky yeast. Pitch rate and temp likely need to be in a particular range to get it to attenuate in your specific range. I've personally had it stall at 1.016 or so and also attenuate down to 1.012 on other beers (from different vials of TYB). Best advice I've heard is to pitch a healthy amount of active yeast (think yeast starter here) at 64 and after it starts slowing down (perhaps around day 3), raise the temp up to 68 to encourage attenuation.

But I've also heard people say it's a highly flocculating strain under the right conditions and I've never had that be the case for me.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Oh, here's another question - has anyone looked at how different sugars can influence body? I realize that the default answer is that sugar dries a beer out. Got it. But Belgians, and other beers made with candi sugars, have fantastic body. I realize also that much of that is probably from the yeast and FG, but I wonder. I know there have been side-by-sides for flavor, but have there been side-by-sides for texture? Would, say, an amber candi sugar increase body in an IPA?

 

[geoffey]

Oh, here's another question - has anyone looked at how different sugars can influence body? I realize that the default answer is that sugar dries a beer out. Got it. But Belgians, and other beers made with candi sugars, have fantastic body. I realize also that much of that is probably from the yeast and FG, but I wonder. I know there have been side-by-sides for flavor, but have there been side-by-sides for texture? Would, say, an amber candi sugar increase body in an IPA?

I think those beers get their body from other facets of the beer make up. Like using raw malt, or mashing higher, etc. I believe candi sugar is 100% fermentable, no matter if it's light, Amber or dark.

 

[Braufessor]

There are lots of examples of Conan crapping out on people at 1.020 or higher. It seems to be a really finicky yeast. Pitch rate and temp likely need to be in a particular range to get it to attenuate in your specific range. I've personally had it stall at 1.016 or so and also attenuate down to 1.012 on other beers (from different vials of TYB). Best advice I've heard is to pitch a healthy amount of active yeast (think yeast starter here) at 64 and after it starts slowing down (perhaps around day 3), raise the temp up to 68 to encourage attenuation.

But I've also heard people say it's a highly flocculating strain under the right conditions and I've never had that be the case for me.

I agree with this - forgot to add. I pitch the active starter at 62-64 and it free rises to 68 or so. At day 3-4, I move it upstairs where ambient temp. is around 70 and let it finish from there.

I get pretty clear beer out of it if I let it sit and settle.... not crystal clear or anything. I have also used cold crashes and gelatin from time to time for very clear beer.

 

[bbohanon]

Just some notes from some other test batches I have done of late:

- Adding a lb of Carapils per 5gal - This simple addition has helped with the head retention and pillowy-ness and Carapils to my knowledge still considered a crystal malt, not an adjunct so I am thinking this may be what he is using in his batches to get that wicked head and lacing on his beers as when I use Carapils, my batches mirror his in regards to the head/lacing results.

- Keeping the grain bills simple. 2-Row and some Crystal 60 and the Carapils for IPAs, and just 2-Row a touch of Crystal 10 and Carapils for my Pale Ales. Sometimes simple is better.

- Started mashing higher - went up to 158/160 on the mash from 152/155..this has helped build out the body a bit more on those heavy IPAs.

- Keeping the sulfates around 66 and Chloride right around 126 (.50 S04/Cl Ratio)

- Adding some bicarbonates to the beer (I am using Pickling Lime which is helping bring the PH up to what I need (5.4/5.5 as well as adding some bicarbs)

- FWH'ing w/hop shots for bittering only and using pellets/leaves for hopstand/whirlpool additions. I swear I think alot of the "creamyness" he is getting with his beer with the mouthfeel in his IPAs is due to using hopshots early for bittering and the remainder is all flameout hops at 180/175deg and again right at 140/145deg. This is leaving alot of those rich hop oils in the beer which is giving it that nice soft "juicy" flavor. To quote someone else on this thread, at 140deg, don't be afraid to dump some serious hops into the hop stand.

- A yeast with a 75-80% attenuation BUT properly pitching the right amount of yeast. I also think this is key to leaving behind that smooth flavor that has the "juicy" texture to it. I have been using Conan pitched from dregs of HT and its landing with at about 75-77% attenuation with good results. I am doing what many of the others are doing on this thread with this yeast and fermenting at 65-68deg for a few days and raising the ambient temp up to 75 to finish it out. I rack the beer out of the fermenter at 2 weeks on the nose into the keg for dry hopping.

- Dry hopping in the keg and then jumping the beer to a clean CO2 purged keg before final carbing/chilling/serving. Again, this gives it that aroma without the hop clumps and with no oxygen being introduced during xfer, that aroma sticks around a bit longer I have noticed.


I am still not 100% there but with what I have been getting of late following these steps, its getting closer to what I want my IPAs and PAs to ultimately be and the folks who have been long time drinkers of my IPAs/PAs have noticed they have tasted much cleaner and juicer without that harsh bite which is a good thing.

Just sharing some of my results from my last few batches.
:rockin:

 

[Rdom]

Are you cold crashing before dry hopping?

 

[bbohanon]

Are you cold crashing before dry hopping?

No cold crashing of late for me with using Conan on these batches. I may give this a try though to clear it up a tad before dry hopping as I am thinking the haze from the HFS beers are almost exclusively due to the dryhops, not so much the yeast still being in suspension as my beers are much more hazy using Conan than HFS beers are but the mouthfeel/head-lacing and creamyness is very close.
Maybe a small cold crash time before racking would help? Dunno.

HToppers cloudyness/orange juice consistency on the other hand is definitely due to the Conan yeast still being heavy in suspension along with late dry hops.

The next phase of testing for me is to run a set of small batch PAs/IPAs with this same methodology with a few different english yeasts for a side by side comparison on these same batches.

Using Conan is working really well, but want to see what I get trying some different english yeasts as I do believe HFS is using an english strain in his IPA/PAs and porters (and I do not believe its 1318). Just my opinion so I want to run some smaller batches and pitch some different yeast to see what I get.
Time is my worst enemy of late as work has been kicking my ass, but I have some time off coming up around Christmas and I may just set 2 days aside to run some of the batches for the english yeast testing.
Will update here what the results are.

 

[Braufessor]

I have been cold crashing mine at the conclusion of primary fermentation. I put first dry hop into primary fermenter around day 5-7 range. Around day 12 I put the fermenter in chest freezer for 2 days at 33. Then I transfer to dry hopping keg for second dry hopping. I do like the results better of dropping the yeast out before second dry hop.

 

[Rdom]

Thanks to both of you. Speaking of English yeasts, has anyone tried wyeast 1469 in their IPA's? Attenuation is low and it can get bit estery but I do happen to have some on hand.

 

[Braufessor]

Using Conan is working really well, but want to see what I get trying some different english yeasts as I do believe HFS is using an english strain in his IPA/PAs and porters (and I do not believe its 1318).

I have had trouble getting away from conan too....... It just produces such a damn good APA/IPA. I end up harvesting so much of it, and using it in everything. Just can't quite bring myself to start using 1318 or other yeasts when I am so happy with Conan.

I have used 1469 in milds and bitters quite a bit and really like it. It can throw some weird flavors up around 70 degrees + though in my experience. I suppose if you dialed in the proper schedule it could be decent.

 

[bbohanon]

I have been cold crashing mine at the conclusion of primary fermentation. I put first dry hop into primary fermenter around day 5-7 range. Around day 12 I put the fermenter in chest freezer for 2 days at 33. Then I transfer to dry hopping keg for second dry hopping. I do like the results better of dropping the yeast out before second dry hop.

On the cold crashing, does it clean up the Conan pretty well suspension wise for those 2 days? I have to believe it does not clear it all the way up but it could be enough to get the "orange juice" look of the beer knocked out a tad if you know what I mean when using Conan..lol
I have never really cared what I beer looks like in the glass as long as it tastes great, but some of the folks I give my beer to would probably want it to look a little "cleaner"...
:fro:

 

[bbohanon]

Thanks to both of you. Speaking of English yeasts, has anyone tried wyeast 1469 in their IPA's? Attenuation is low and it can get bit estery but I do happen to have some on hand.

I have not..I have used 1318 and I did not like it as much as what I get from Conan. With the bounty of english ale yeasts out there however, I want to do more testing with a few of them.

The ones I am interested in trying are WLP023, WY1099, WY1098 for my next english strain experimental batches.

 

[Braufessor]

On the cold crashing, does it clean up the Conan pretty well suspension wise for those 2 days? I have to believe it does not clear it all the way up but it could be enough to get the "orange juice" look of the beer knocked out a tad if you know what I mean when using Conan..lol
I have never really cared what I beer looks like in the glass as long as it tastes great, but some of the folks I give my beer to would probably want it to look a little "cleaner"...
:fro:

Yeah.... I generally don't care about the look either. In fact, almost every one of my favorite IPA's tends to be moderately to quite hazy. That said, I feel like the hop flavors come through better with most of the yeast knocked out before I do my second dry hop. I did 2-3 batches where I put the fermenter in the freezer at 33 for a day, added gelatin for 2 days and then transferred to dry hopping keg. These beers were very clear going into the dry hopping keg, and somewhat hazy coming out...... from the hop oils I assume in the last dry hopping.
Then I was in a hurry on a batch and did not want to mess with the gelatin..... so the fermenter was just in the freezer for 2 days. The beer was not "brilliantly clear"...... but it was pretty clear coming out of the fermenter into the dry hopping keg with just the cold crash.... so, that is what I have been doing since. I would describe my beers as a "hazy clear" with this process. They tend to move toward "clear" after being on tap for a week or two.
I have a beer That will be cold crashed in a few days..... I will try to post up some pics after primary, after cold crash, etc.

For me.... all about flavor, and I feel I am getting brighter hop flavor dropping the yeast out. This one is a Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy - on tap for about 10-12 days or so I would guess.

 

[bbohanon]

For me.... all about flavor, and I feel I am getting brighter hop flavor dropping the yeast out. This one is a Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy - on tap for about 10-12 days or so I would guess.

Agreed..this is why I am thinking alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs..
That being said, I think I am going to cold crash my next batches for a few days with Conan and any english strains I get time to test for taste impact as well.
Thanks much!

 

[bierhaus15]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this so called "hop-haze" has little to do with hop oils and everything to do with suspended yeast, bound-polyphenols, proteins, tannins, ect. If you take the time to centrifuge any of the hoppy HF, Treehouse, or Alchemist beers, you end up with a bunch of yeast in the bottom of your vial. That's because these beers are not filtered or centrifuged and contain lots of yeast, among other compounds.

As you remove yeast and polyphenols from beer, you end up with better, more defined hop character.

 

[Colbizle]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this so called "hop-haze" has little to do with hop oils and everything to do with suspended yeast, bound-polyphenols, proteins, tannins, ect. If you take the time to centrifuge any of the hoppy HF, Treehouse, or Alchemist beers, you end up with a bunch of yeast in the bottom of your vial. That's because these beers are not filtered or centrifuged and contain lots of yeast, among other compounds.

As you remove yeast and polyphenols from beer, you end up with better, more defined hop character.

1000x this^

57 posts and we always seem to start back at square one. You'd think we'd discuss this already.

 

[bbohanon]

1000x this^

57 posts and we always seem to start back at square one. You'd think we'd discuss this already.

It aint over till its over!
This is why I have not been cold crashing as of yet as I have been getting the taste profile I am aiming for with the yeast in suspension and following the other items I ticked off in an earlier post..Makes for a soft, juicy, "orange juice looking" IPA, but its damn good.

I might still try cold crashing a batch or 2 for a short cycle to pull some but not all of that yeast out just to clear the beer up a tad though and see how the taste profile adjusts.

:fro:

 

[kevink]

It aint over till its over!
This is why I have not been cold crashing as of yet as I have been getting the taste profile I am aiming for with the yeast in suspension and following the other items I ticked off in an earlier post..Makes for a soft, juicy, "orange juice looking" IPA, but its damn good.

I might still try cold crashing a batch or 2 for a short cycle to pull some but not all of that yeast out just to clear the beer up a tad though and see how the taste profile adjusts.

:fro:

Your other post mentions how you think that "alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs,"

Are you shooting for a Hill mouthfeel or not?

One of your posts says that you like the yeast in suspension and the other says that Hill beers achieve good mouthfeel from hop haze, not yeast in suspension.

 

[bbohanon]

Your other post mentions how you think that "alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs,"

Are you shooting for a Hill mouthfeel or not?

One of your posts says that you like the yeast in suspension and the other says that Hill beers achieve good mouthfeel from hop haze, not yeast in suspension.

So to date, I am getting what I perceive as a close profile to HFS taste/mouth feel/softness/head and lacing without cold crashing the yeast out (using Conan).
However, the thing I notice more than anything with using Conan in particular is how my batches look (which is very "muddy looking" as a description) in the glass due to how Conan tends to not flocc much at all, especially when young.

For me its not a problem, but with some of the folks that drink my beer, its noticeable and for some, a complete turnoff. (yea I know I should not care what others think, but I am a stickler for how my beer is perceived..plus its something else I can test/work on to dial in on my batches)

As mentioned before Conan is such a damn good yeast for PAs and IPAs its hard not to use it..

My batches with Conan and no cold crashing tends to be far more muddier in the glass than I have seen HFS IPAs and PAs be including their DIIPAs which made me wonder if they are cold crashing their batches (if the yeast they are using as we know its not Conan, is a low flocc'er like Conan is) to drop out some or most of the yeast out along with a massive dry hop to keep a alot of the haze/hop oils in the glass and if that is in any way helping their beers hop profile without sacrificing or maybe even enhancing the mouthfeel/softness a bit more..again..I have yet to attempt a cold crash with Conan along with a massive dry hop to test this, but want to try and see what I get.

NOTE: I know HFS is unfiltered and all, so SOME of the yeast is going to be there regardless..

The other variable is if they are using an english strain (as we know they are not using Conan at HFS at this time) then maybe it is NOT as low floccing as Conan usually is and the yeast is in there, but just not as "clingy" to stay suspended as Conan usually is without a cold crash.
This is yet another interesting test that I want to do with the english strains I mentioned before based on those yeast profiles.

I am no where even close to claiming I am 100% there with their profile by any means, but I "think" I am getting close(r) based on having quite bit of their beer over this past Thanksgiving holiday as well as having 10 more bottles of their brew sitting in my fridge (although sadly they do NOT bottle any of their IPAs).

Its all about dialing in and testing the little things that will get my own batches to really pop like theirs does with the balanced, clean, crisp and soft mouthfeel/taste profile but not have it look like total pond water when I serve it.

Below is a post of some Abner I had less than a month ago for reference..my batches using Conan without a cold crash are much "muddier" than this brew looks:

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

 

[kevink]

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

 

[Colbizle]

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

At my friends brewery we cold crash in the ferm to drop yeast. Then harvest, and transfer to bright where it carbs in about under a day, then we transfer from the keg straight out of the bright. He doesn't filter his beers or use any finings and his beers are mostly clear with some haze.

 

[Colbizle]

So to date, I am getting what I perceive as a close profile to HFS taste/mouth feel/softness/head and lacing without cold crashing the yeast out (using Conan).
However, the thing I notice more than anything with using Conan in particular is how my batches look (which is very "muddy looking" as a description) in the glass due to how Conan tends to not flocc much at all, especially when young.

For me its not a problem, but with some of the folks that drink my beer, its noticeable and for some, a complete turnoff. (yea I know I should not care what others think, but I am a stickler for how my beer is perceived..plus its something else I can test/work on to dial in on my batches)

As mentioned before Conan is such a damn good yeast for PAs and IPAs its hard not to use it..

My batches with Conan and no cold crashing tends to be far more muddier in the glass than I have seen HFS IPAs and PAs be including their DIIPAs which made me wonder if they are cold crashing their batches (if the yeast they are using as we know its not Conan, is a low flocc'er like Conan is) to drop out some or most of the yeast out along with a massive dry hop to keep a alot of the haze/hop oils in the glass and if that is in any way helping their beers hop profile without sacrificing or maybe even enhancing the mouthfeel/softness a bit more..again..I have yet to attempt a cold crash with Conan along with a massive dry hop to test this, but want to try and see what I get.

NOTE: I know HFS is unfiltered and all, so SOME of the yeast is going to be there regardless..

The other variable is if they are using an english strain (as we know they are not using Conan at HFS at this time) then maybe it is NOT as low floccing as Conan usually is and the yeast is in there, but just not as "clingy" to stay suspended as Conan usually is without a cold crash.
This is yet another interesting test that I want to do with the english strains I mentioned before based on those yeast profiles.

I am no where even close to claiming I am 100% there with their profile by any means, but I "think" I am getting close(r) based on having quite bit of their beer over this past Thanksgiving holiday as well as having 10 more bottles of their brew sitting in my fridge (although sadly they do NOT bottle any of their IPAs).

Its all about dialing in and testing the little things that will get my own batches to really pop like theirs does with the balanced, clean, crisp and soft mouthfeel/taste profile but not have it look like total pond water when I serve it.

Below is a post of some Abner I had less than a month ago for reference..my batches using Conan without a cold crash are much "muddier" than this brew looks:

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

According to pictures I've seen, trilliums and Tree houses beers look way muddier than hill farmstead?

 

[bbohanon]

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

Cannot answer how HFS are dry hopping their beers or if they have any bright tanks in use, but I do know a good portion of their bottle releases are bottle carbed so they never see force carbing or a bright tank if I had to wager. They again also do not bottle any of their IPAs that I have seen either so maybe they do something different with those?

From their "Arthur" notes: Unfiltered and naturally carbonated, this is the ale that I dream to have shared with Arthur."

They just do about everything different than what you would expect which is why it makes it fun to experiment with things to find that special beer profile that all of their beers have which make them unique.

 

[bbohanon]

According to pictures I've seen, trilliums and Tree houses beers look way muddier than hill farmstead?

Sadly I have not had the pleasure of trying any of these to date.