Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Kiichi]

I can further put emphasis on high mash temp and yeast strain. Right now I am drinking a 3,4% beer that so far now one has put under 5% cause it does not feel thin in the least. The current batch has some issues, but size and mouthfeel are not among them. I relied mostly on French Saison yeast, a 69C mash, 100 100 sulfates and clorides, mash PH 5.2 on this (5.4 on the last batch, so I am still out on judgement there), and carapils.

I think the fact that no one so far could tell it was this low in alcohol (most saying around 6%, I even heard 7% more than 5%), says a lot about the what I managed to hit here.

Thus I think that as soon as we nail the yeast and add some carapils we should be getting really close.

Has anyone done one of their regular recipes and just added half a pound of carapils? That would be a worthwile test I recon.

 

[Leeds1]

I realized after drinking some Trillium Congress St, Tree House Julius/Purple Haze, and numerous Tired Hands hoppy beers that this style of IPA is what I want to drink more of so I figured I would try to brew something like it. I've got the malts and some 1318 to give this a shot but the water treatment is making my head spin. I sent off a sample to Ward Labs and got the results back last week. This is well water and I know it's hard, I have a softner hooked into the household water but have a valve where that I use for water straight from the well and after reading this thread I now know why my Star San is cloudy, I've been trying to figure that one out forever.

Here are the results:

pH 7.9
Na 12
K 5
Ca 96
Mg 15
CaCO3 303
Sulfate 14
Chloride 8
Carbonate <1.0
Bicarbonate 325
Total Alkalinity 269
Total Phosphorus .01

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction to get a better understanding of what I need to do to my water? It looks like I need raise the Sulfate and the Chloride significantly to fall in the range that others are using for these beers. Is there anything else that looks wacky and needs adjusted?

 

[The_Glue]

I realized after drinking some Trillium Congress St, Tree House Julius/Purple Haze, and numerous Tired Hands hoppy beers that this style of IPA is what I want to drink more of so I figured I would try to brew something like it. I've got the malts and some 1318 to give this a shot but the water treatment is making my head spin. I sent off a sample to Ward Labs and got the results back last week. This is well water and I know it's hard, I have a softner hooked into the household water but have a valve where that I use for water straight from the well and after reading this thread I now know why my Star San is cloudy, I've been trying to figure that one out forever.

Here are the results:

pH 7.9
Na 12
K 5
Ca 96
Mg 15
CaCO3 303
Sulfate 14
Chloride 8
Carbonate <1.0
Bicarbonate 325
Total Alkalinity 269
Total Phosphorus .01

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction to get a better understanding of what I need to do to my water? It looks like I need raise the Sulfate and the Chloride significantly to fall in the range that others are using for these beers. Is there anything else that looks wacky and needs adjusted?

That CaCO3/bicarb is too high, your mash ph will be too high, you'll need acid.
Btw my best IPA yet have like 10 So4 and 100 Cl so at first you might could get away adding only CaCL2 and acid.

 

[Braufessor]

**I am assuming you are brewing all grain and not extract.

By far the biggest problem with your water is your alkalinity/bicarbonate...... That is going to drive your mash pH way up and you are likely to end up with a rather "harsh" beer.

To be honest, the best thing you can do is to use about 75% Reverse Osmosis water and then use CaCl, Gypsum, Canning Salt to build back some of the minerals. Ideally, use a program like B'run water or something to input your water, account for dilution with RO and then target a mash pH in the 5.3-5.4 range or so.

You will need to add some acid (lactic or phosphoric to bring pH down - even with dilution of RO.

I suppose you could simply try 100% of your own water and add necessary about of acid to get pH in range..... but I am thinking that would be quite a lot of acid and not sure how it would turn out trying to adjust for that high bicarb number.

 

[D-Train]

I realized after drinking some Trillium Congress St, Tree House Julius/Purple Haze, and numerous Tired Hands hoppy beers that this style of IPA is what I want to drink more of so I figured I would try to brew something like it. I've got the malts and some 1318 to give this a shot but the water treatment is making my head spin. I sent off a sample to Ward Labs and got the results back last week. This is well water and I know it's hard, I have a softner hooked into the household water but have a valve where that I use for water straight from the well and after reading this thread I now know why my Star San is cloudy, I've been trying to figure that one out forever.

Here are the results:

pH 7.9
Na 12
K 5
Ca 96
Mg 15
CaCO3 303
Sulfate 14
Chloride 8
Carbonate <1.0
Bicarbonate 325
Total Alkalinity 269
Total Phosphorus .01

Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction to get a better understanding of what I need to do to my water? It looks like I need raise the Sulfate and the Chloride significantly to fall in the range that others are using for these beers. Is there anything else that looks wacky and needs adjusted?

That water is a great candidate for alkalinity reduction by boiling or slaked lime. I like the latter because it's cheap and doesn't use up energy by boiling. Read Kai's articles on the subject. His spreadsheet is what I used to determine the amount of lime to add and it works well based on pre and post water tests. You'll probably need to add a little bit of calcium for maximum alkalinity reduction but that can easily come in the form of calcium chloride or gypsum which you'll add anyways. I can knock my alkalinity down from 250 to 50 using this technique.

 

[zwiller]

All good points but I would say just go with 100% distilled on pale styles until you have the gear and understanding of what to do. KISS

 

[Colbizle]

Has anyone heard of or had this beer called fatamorgana by omnipollo ? I saw it at my local liquor store (they carry a ton of craft beer) and wasn't going to buy it since it was 6.99$ for one 12oz bottle! :O but I had a change of heart when I picked it up and noticed how murky looking it was. This brewery also did a collab with tired hands on another beer I saw on beer advocate. Maybe they swapped yeasties?!

Anywho, the beer did have a very very soft mouthfeel. Not evaporating Per se but soft. The appearance was on pare with HF, tired hands and Tree house. Aroma and flavor was kinda weak but after looking at the bottle it expires this month. So I suspect it was 5-6 months at this point. Still really tasty!

 

[Kiichi]

Has anyone heard of or had this beer called fatamorgana by omnipollo ? I saw it at my local liquor store (they carry a ton of craft beer) and wasn't going to buy it since it was 6.99$ for one 12oz bottle! :O but I had a change of heart when I picked it up and noticed how murky looking it was. This brewery also did a collab with tired hands on another beer I saw on beer advocate. Maybe they swapped yeasties?!

Anywho, the beer did have a very very soft mouthfeel. Not evaporating Per se but soft. The appearance was on pare with HF, tired hands and Tree house. Aroma and flavor was kinda weak but after looking at the bottle it expires this month. So I suspect it was 5-6 months at this point. Still really tasty!

Yeah, I know that one well. Since I live in Sweden. =) One of my favorite IPAs I must say, though the newest batch was, when I had it suuuuper fresh, not that great as it tasted a lot of raw hops. Usually awesome beer though that keeps surprisingly well as you discovered.
Love the crazy Omnipollo fellows anyhow for their beer aswell as for how nice they are.

I do believe the best before date is usually a year from bottling, but I´d have to go ask them. Actually I just did, so just lemme wait for the answer. =)

If you ever see Yellow Belly Sundae....just buy it. Peanut-butter biscuit imperial stout aged on vanilla, cacao, and bourbon barrels. The last three make it the sundae, but even the normal one is pretty cool.

Anyhow, info I have on Fatamorgana from what Omnipollo themselfs have published:
70% Pale, 10% Wheat, 10% malted & flaked oats (they say the sometimes use one of the two but preferably both). Plus 10% Dextrose once fermentation has kicked in (they say to avoid tired yeast).
75min mash at 67C with soft water
75min boil, target 60IBU with Columbus
Citra and Columbus @ 10min
No irish moss or the likes, haze is wanted.
Citra, Columbus, and Centennial in the Whirlpool
Total hop ratios are 1 part Columbus, 2 part Centennial, 3 part Citra
S-04 pitched at 17C
Biiig 3 day dryhop with 1 part Columbus, 2 parts Centennial, and 3 parts Citra
Low carb.



So yeah, they go with wheat and oats to get the mouthfeel. And S-04, while not being a mouthfeel king by itself, is not the highest attenuating yeast.

 

[hopsandhops]

Just a thought, has anyone skipped using a kettle fining agent in this quest?

I read something yesterday where someone skipped adding whirlfloc in the interest of haze, and I wondered what effect that would have. I always use whirlfloc, I've been conditioned to where it would seem weird not to lol

 

[Oldsock]

Just a thought, has anyone skipped using a kettle fining agent in this quest?

I read something yesterday where someone skipped adding whirlfloc in the interest of haze, and I wondered what effect that would have. I always use whirlfloc, I've been conditioned to where it would seem weird not to lol

There have been a few experiments suggesting kettle finings don't end up doing much for clarity. They help to drop out more trub in the kettle in my experience (if you whirlpool and settle), but that stuff would drop out in the fermentor anyway.

I'm still convinced most of the haze in these beers is hop-related. Trillium ferments with 007, and that yeast drops well, and they don't add much adjunct/wheat to most of their beers.

 

[Colbizle]

There have been a few experiments suggesting kettle finings don't end up doing much for clarity. They help to drop out more trub in the kettle in my experience (if you whirlpool and settle), but that stuff would drop out in the fermentor anyway.

I'm still convinced most of the haze in these beers is hop-related. Trillium ferments with 007, and that yeast drops well, and they don't add much adjunct/wheat to most of their beers.

Curious, how do you know trillium ferments with 007?

 

[hopsandhops]

I'm curious also. I've found 007 leaves a softer feel than Chico, etc, in my experiences. I haven't tried it with the processes in this thread though.

My question on whirlfloc was more related to mouthfeel than clarity. Anyone skip kettle finings in an effort to soften the feel?

 

[Colbizle]

I'm curious also. I've found 007 leaves a softer feel than Chico, etc, in my experiences. I haven't tried it with the processes in this thread though.

My question on whirlfloc was more related to mouthfeel than clarity. Anyone skip kettle finings in an effort to soften the feel?

007 is an awesome yeast.

In my personal experience, I have skipped kettle finings before and also had a poor cold break and a LOT of trub made it into the fermentor. I felt like the final beer was a bit more grainy tasting, definitely less clear. Again, that's just my experience and could simply be a result of my own disobedience.

I don't believe skipping kettle finings and/or having a poor cold break will be any benefit in mouthfeel.

YMMV.

 

[Kiichi]

I'm curious also. I've found 007 leaves a softer feel than Chico, etc, in my experiences. I haven't tried it with the processes in this thread though.

My question on whirlfloc was more related to mouthfeel than clarity. Anyone skip kettle finings in an effort to soften the feel?

Well, as it states in the Omnipollo Fatamorgana recipe I posted on that last page they leave out finning agents to get more haze, which I can only assume is related to mouthfeel, cause I don´t think they´d just do it for the look.

I might try that in the future too, but in turn leave extra time for the coldbreak to settle out cause I don´t want that stuff in my fermenter. In my experience it can give harsher grainy notes if you go over a certain point. Plus it makes reusing yeast a little harder. =)

 

[Oldsock]

Curious, how do you know trillium ferments with 007?

That's what was called for in the recent BYO Fort Point clone recipe that they provided input/tips on. JC has also mentioned to me that they used a highly flocculant strain, and as a result he is convinced the turbidity isn't yeast-driven.

One of my best batches of IPA was 007, so the strain didn't surprise me. It was really clear, but then I waited until post-fermentation to dry hop. My working theory is that the hop oils glom onto the yeast when they are added mid-fermentation and reduce flocculation (or something?).

 

[yeastylad]

This is my first post in this thread, but feel I must

Just kegged a citra / azzaca IPA brewed with a very similar grain bill to the omnipollo mentioned above. I used s-04 too. It was a 1oz bittering charge, then 9oz citra and azzaca mix in the whirlpool. 3 oz dry hop. Whirlfloc in the boil.

I cold crashed and fined with gelatin before kegging and dry hopping and the beer was crystal clear. The attached picture is after a day of cold dry hopping. It's all hop haze.

I just finished a bunch of bottles of Trillium recently and this beer is very similar to their Fort Point Pale Ale. It has a soft mouthfeel and pleasant mineral like quality in the hops and bitterness. Just my 2 cents if your interested. My water is pretty soft, not much alkalinity. I just carbon filter it. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1442340874.455353.jpg

 

[hopsandhops]

Well, as it states in the Omnipollo Fatamorgana recipe I posted on that last page they leave out finning agents to get more haze, which I can only assume is related to mouthfeel, cause I don´t think they´d just do it for the look.

I might try that in the future too, but in turn leave extra time for the coldbreak to settle out cause I don´t want that stuff in my fermenter. In my experience it can give harsher grainy notes if you go over a certain point. Plus it makes reusing yeast a little harder. =)

That's probably where i read it.. lol

I've wondered for awhile if skipping a kettle fining agent would leave more hop compounds in suspension, but could never bring myself to do it. Once I discovered gelatin I was on a clarity kick for awhile. I might have to give it a try

 

[irishrover32]

This is my first post in this thread, but feel I must

Just kegged a citra / azzaca IPA brewed with a very similar grain bill to the omnipollo mentioned above. I used s-04 too. It was a 1oz bittering charge, then 9oz citra and azzaca mix in the whirlpool. 3 oz dry hop. Whirlfloc in the boil.

I cold crashed and fined with gelatin before kegging and dry hopping and the beer was crystal clear. The attached picture is after a day of cold dry hopping. It's all hop haze.

I just finished a bunch of bottles of Trillium recently and this beer is very similar to their Fort Point Pale Ale. It has a soft mouthfeel and pleasant mineral like quality in the hops and bitterness. Just my 2 cents if your interested. My water is pretty soft, not much alkalinity. I just carbon filter it. View attachment 303425

I think your on To something here I think clearing the beer to get all proteins and tannins out is the best option and is what a brewer like Sean would do that stuff tastes nasty. Dry hopping in the keg with huge amounts gives a great hop haze which is where you want your haze to come from not tannins or proteins. I've used the keg dry hopping methods a few time a d beers are super soft and creamy.

 

[Colbizle]

I think your on To something here I think clearing the beer to get all proteins and tannins out is the best option and is what a brewer like Sean would do that stuff tastes nasty. Dry hopping in the keg with huge amounts gives a great hop haze which is where you want your haze to come from not tannins or proteins. I've used the keg dry hopping methods a few time a d beers are super soft and creamy.

I'd doubt these brewers are dry hopping in their bright tanks. It doesn't sound economical. Dry hop extraction is always better at warmer temperatures. What is dry hopping in the keg giving you that can't be achieved in the fermenter?

 

[irishrover32]

I'd doubt these brewers are dry hopping in their bright tanks. It doesn't sound economical. Dry hop extraction is always better at warmer temperatures. What is dry hopping in the keg giving you that can't be achieved in the fermenter?

For me personally I like to have my beer crystal clear going into the keg that way I know there's no proteins or yeast in suspension so once my beer is in the keg and is dry hopped I know for a fact that my haze is a hop haze and nothin else. I dry hop at warm temperatures also, sorry if that wasn't clear, I then remove the bag and chill it to serving temp. There's less oxygen pick up from this method and breweries tend to use fancy fermenters and we use carboys so I think this method is as close as we can get to a brewery with out fancy equipment

 

[Colbizle]

For me personally I like to have my beer crystal clear going into the keg that way I know there's no proteins or yeast in suspension so once my beer is in the keg and is dry hopped I know for a fact that my haze is a hop haze and nothin else. I dry hop at warm temperatures also, sorry if that wasn't clear, I then remove the bag and chill it to serving temp. There's less oxygen pick up from this method and breweries tend to use fancy fermenters and we use carboys so I think this method is as close as we can get to a brewery with out fancy equipment

Oh ok, I see what you're saying. Usually when I hear about people keg hopping they are adding it when chilled.

 

[hopsandhops]

I wonder how they drop the yeast/ tannins/ etc before dry hopping if they aren't filtering? The pic by @yeastylad certainly looks like the hoppy brews I've had from Hill Farmstead/ Tree House/ etc

 

[Colbizle]

I wonder how they drop the yeast/ tannins/ etc before dry hopping if they aren't filtering? The pic by @yeastylad certainly looks like the hoppy brews I've had from Hill Farmstead/ Tree House/ etc

Cold crash!

 

[Kiichi]

I wonder how they drop the yeast/ tannins/ etc before dry hopping if they aren't filtering? The pic by @yeastylad certainly looks like the hoppy brews I've had from Hill Farmstead/ Tree House/ etc

Then again many seem to start their first round of dryhopping while fermentation is still active since the oils and yeast interact for flavor. Then crash em to drop stuff out and go another round. At least that is what I have seemed to gather.

 

[yeastylad]

I wonder how they drop the yeast/ tannins/ etc before dry hopping if they aren't filtering? The pic by @yeastylad certainly looks like the hoppy brews I've had from Hill Farmstead/ Tree House/ etc

So.... I think i picked up a bit of trub or something when transferring to the keg. The beer no longer looks like that original pic. It's pretty clear with very slight haze. Interestingly though, it doesn't taste as creamy as that first pull from the keg. The first beer was really great. It's now more like a crisp clean hoppy IPA. It's still good, but that cloudy first glass had so much more going on, and it really was not far off Trillium. It's nothing like it now though.

I don't think these commercial breweries spend time clarifying. I think they whirlpool hard, oxygenate well, ferment fast, dry hop hard and package. I don't think there's much more to it than that.

 

[yeastylad]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1442541845.851806.jpg Same beer.

 

[irishrover32]

View attachment 303849 Same beer.

one beer i dry hopped in the keg never cleared, it was constantly cloudy and very soft and creamy, to be honest i didn like the creamyness it actually came across like a nitro beer and it never seemed to take up carbonation to the extent i wanted, bubbles were alsways very small. when i transfered the beer to the keg before dry hopping it was crystal clear and had a lovely malty character i then dry hopped it with 4oz for 7 days and 1.5oz for 4 days. i think i over hopped it in the keg, it was almost soupy and slightly vegetal i think if i was to cut the dry hops to maybe just 4oz for 5 days this would be perfect. here's a picture of the beer after about 2 monthes. i think this hop oil saturation has a major roll on mouthfeel, its not from yeast or proteins in my opinion as pro brewers know these arent desirable in finished beer (not sure about the proteins on this point?). if you want a creamy think soft mouthfeel and a cloudy looking beer dry hop your beers to **** in the keg

 

[bierhaus15]

Hop haze is principally tannins and proteins formed in the mash that are bonded with polyphenols from dry hopping. Some of that haze will also be yeast+proteins, iso-alpha, and other organic compounds. However, as a whole, hop oils do not contribute to mouthfeel or haze in the same way that these other compounds do. A clear beer (pre-dry hop) is not an indication of a lack of yeast, protein, or tannin in suspension; the haze produced after dry hopping is evidence that those compounds were present in the original beer.

Why is this important: hop haze is not an indication of pure hoppiness or hop oil concentrations, as some breweries would have us believe. Actually, a lot of that haze contains compounds that detract from the overall hop character of the beer. Some of the perceived "hoppiest" brews actually have moderate oil concentrations, but have high amounts of polyphenols, humulinones, iso-alpha, organic acids, yeast, ect, that mimic what we think of as hop flavor. A certain IIPA from Vermont is the poster child for this. We can test this via GCMS and HPLC.

Ideally, we'd be all be making our IPA's clear if we really cared about hop oils. Cloudy beer has more to do with production limitations than what is actually better for the taste of the product. Lastly, the longer you dry hop, the more polyphnols you get.

 

[Colbizle]

one beer i dry hopped in the keg never cleared, it was constantly cloudy and very soft and creamy, to be honest i didn like the creamyness it actually came across like a nitro beer and it never seemed to take up carbonation to the extent i wanted, bubbles were alsways very small. when i transfered the beer to the keg before dry hopping it was crystal clear and had a lovely malty character i then dry hopped it with 4oz for 7 days and 1.5oz for 4 days. i think i over hopped it in the keg, it was almost soupy and slightly vegetal i think if i was to cut the dry hops to maybe just 4oz for 5 days this would be perfect. here's a picture of the beer after about 2 monthes. i think this hop oil saturation has a major roll on mouthfeel, its not from yeast or proteins in my opinion as pro brewers know these arent desirable in finished beer (not sure about the proteins on this point?). if you want a creamy think soft mouthfeel and a cloudy looking beer dry hop your beers to **** in the keg

What yeast did you use?

 

[irishrover32]

Hop haze is principally tannins and proteins formed in the mash that are bonded with polyphenols from dry hopping. Some of that haze will also be yeast+proteins, iso-alpha, and other organic compounds. However, as a whole, hop oils do not contribute to mouthfeel or haze in the same way that these other compounds do. A clear beer (pre-dry hop) is not an indication of a lack of yeast, protein, or tannin in suspension; the haze produced after dry hopping is evidence that those compounds were present in the original beer.

Why is this important: hop haze is not an indication of pure hoppiness or hop oil concentrations, as some breweries would have us believe. Actually, a lot of that haze contains compounds that detract from the overall hop character of the beer. Some of the perceived "hoppiest" brews actually have moderate oil concentrations, but have high amounts of polyphenols, humulinones, iso-alpha, organic acids, yeast, ect, that mimic what we think of as hop flavor. A certain IIPA from Vermont is the poster child for this. We can test this via GCMS and HPLC.

Ideally, we'd be all be making our IPA's clear if we really cared about hop oils. Cloudy beer has more to do with production limitations than what is actually better for the taste of the product. Lastly, the longer you dry hop, the more polyphnols you get.

that was very enlightening and i have to agree with everything you said most cloudy hoppy beer iv had tastes poor and have some sort of flaw, maybe the flavour is great but the finish is too bitter for example. through years of drinking beer iv come to prefer clear beers and its simply because they taste better. saying that iv never had a HF beer so its just my opinion. i suppose what it boils down to here is flavour versus mouthfeel and i think its fascinating how mouth feel can effect the final beer and how important it is. i think its not so difficult to make a good beer with a lot of hop flavour but that added mouthfeel is what makes it a great beer.

What yeast did you use?

i used 007 highly flocculant, i ferment low to supress esters so i get a clean fast ferment that drops out very fast