Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[The_Glue]

Went up to VT this weekend and visited the HF brewery.. man that place is really out there! Thankfully I had written the final directions down as there was 0 service and the GPS wanted to take us down a path that was clearly not a road.

Anyways, I have to second the opinion that they aren't using 1318. The beers just don't have that "berry" thing going on that I get from fermenting 1318 at 68 and the finish is much crisper; there's almost no residual sweetness. It also seems to be less hazy than I've been getting with 1318, without gelatin, even after a few weeks in the keg.

The mouthfeel is just incredible! I compared a growler of Society and Solitude #5 (which might be the perfect DIPA) we brought home to an IPA I have on tap with 14% oats, a big 60 minute charge and (2) 15 minute 3 oz WPs of Falconer's Flight at ~170* and ~135*.

I used the following water profile: Ca: 92, Mg: 19, Na: 22, S04: 73, Cl: 187, Bicarb: 16 and an estimated (still need a meter) mash Ph of 5.38.

My review is that the mid sip feel is pretty close, but the last, almost swallow is still too substantial. It just doesn't "evaporate" the same way.

My 2¢

An IPA i made had a very similar feel you describe, it had zero bittering hops @ 60, the first bittering charge was @ 30, IBUs in the boil were around only 17 but then I whirlpooled a lot of hops after 0 and then below 170F for about 30 mins.
OG was 1.053. (85% MO, 15% Oats) Despite the low IBUs the beer did not tasted sweet or cloying because the missing residual sweetness, it also missed the lingering aftertaste of the stronger IPAs. It "evaporated" fast.
Btw i like most of the aspects of this beer except for the low residual sweetness. I like a bit of that raisiny thing in my beers. It seems like my favorite IPA would have been some kind of hybrid of east and west coast techiques but that is the cool thing in homebrewing.

 

[hopsandhops]

I found that too and after having a similar reaction and researching accordingly, it turns out the Grassroots Legitimacy was a collaboration brew. This didn't say anything about Grassroots or a collab brew at the brewery. It also didn't really smell like it was "Dry hopped copiously with Simcoe". It was ridiculously drinkable though. It came off as a pale ale until it warmed up.

Maybe an email is in order...

I emailed HF and they responded that it is in fact Grassroots Legitimacy, which clearly states that it uses oats. What I find interesting is that it didn't have as much of a light, airy feel as the S&S #5, which was much higher in abv and didn't list oats in the ingredients.

 

[hopsandhops]

An IPA i made had a very similar feel you describe, it had zero bittering hops @ 60, the first bittering charge was @ 30, IBUs in the boil were around only 17 but then I whirlpooled a lot of hops after 0 and then below 170F for about 30 mins.
OG was 1.053. (85% MO, 15% Oats) Despite the low IBUs the beer did not tasted sweet or cloying because the missing residual sweetness, it also missed the lingering aftertaste of the stronger IPAs. It "evaporated" fast.
Btw i like most of the aspects of this beer except for the low residual sweetness. I like a bit of that raisiny thing in my beers. It seems like my favorite IPA would have been some kind of hybrid of east and west coast techiques but that is the cool thing in homebrewing.

What yeast did you use?

 

[gotbags-10]

I wonder if a Conan/1318 yeast combo or something similar would worth trying. Getting ready to brew tomorrow and I have both yeasts as well as 1272. I was thinking about doing a 9g batch split into 3 fermenters with different yeasts.

 

[The_Glue]

What yeast did you use?

MJ Burton Ale and Lallemand Windsor. (and US05 for control)
Burton was cloudier (as cloudy as you can see in the pictures in this thread) and had better mouthfeel and felt a bit more bitter and juicy. I was pleased with the mouthfeel.
Windsor was cleaner, average mouthfeel and a bit more one-dimensional. (i've seen a lot of posts that this yeast doesn't really attenuates well but it was almost bone-dry for me. The temps creeped high though after a few days due to a really hot summer, like 75F high in the fermenter)
Haven't tasted the US05 yet.

 

[more_betterness]

Anyone know if HF filters their hoppy beers? I would lean toward saying no due to that beautiful haze but am not positive. If they don't, why can't we just grow some up from a fresh growler?

Was wondering if anyone had tried this!

 

[Colbizle]

I found that too and after having a similar reaction and researching accordingly, it turns out the Grassroots Legitimacy was a collaboration brew. This didn't say anything about Grassroots or a collab brew at the brewery. It also didn't really smell like it was "Dry hopped copiously with Simcoe". It was ridiculously drinkable though. It came off as a pale ale until it warmed up.

Maybe an email is in order...

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/grassroots-hill-farmstead-relationship.198198/

^ Grassroots brewing is still Shaune of Hill Farmstead but just under a different moniker.

So in this one hes using adjuncts. Which makes me think he's may be using adjuncts in his other beers as well but just didn't list? Why would he all of sudden start using them in just a simple IPA? Interesting stuff lol

 

[Kiichi]

Article?

Damn I am a moron sometimes. Edited the post and here it is too: http://archive.is/VkRos

 

[Colbizle]

I would guess he is using something fruity because IIRC, Shaun was using Conan for a long while before switching over to something different in the past few years. If he strayed too far away from the Conan with something like a standard American Ale Yeast, I bet it would be noticeable. I'll try to dig up the reference that cited this.

Really? Conan? That's interesting. Ya ref would be nice!

 

[kaz4121]

Really? Conan? That's interesting. Ya ref would be nice!

From TheMadFermentationist (OldSock)

In his article Vermont Cult Clones in the October 2013 issue of BYO, Dave Green mentions that "n my conversations with the brewers it was indicated that Conan is no longer the strain that is being used." However there isn’t an explanation of whether this means that The Alchemist is no longer using the original isolate because it mutated, or if they have switched to a different yeast strain. (Luckily down in the comments, Art filled me in on his conversations with the author of the BYO article and John Kimmich of The Alchemist. Apparently they are still using Conan for Heady Topper, it is Hill Farmstead that is no longer using Conan, something I wasn't aware they did in the first place).

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/11/conan-ipa-and-yeast.html

 

[bierhaus15]

A friend came through with a growler of Edward and a four pack each of Fiddlehead's Second Fiddle and Focal Banger this afternoon. All fresh as of Saturday. Will run some of the liquid in the lab for a full analysis.

 

[Colbizle]

I would guess he is using something fruity because IIRC, Shaun was using Conan for a long while before switching over to something different in the past few years. If he strayed too far away from the Conan with something like a standard American Ale Yeast, I bet it would be noticeable. I'll try to dig up the reference that cited this.

My google-fu dug up the fact that Shaune is very good friends with John Kimmich way before he started HF. If at one point Shaune was using John's conan strain then this makes sense.

 

[hopsandhops]

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/grassroots-hill-farmstead-relationship.198198/

^ Grassroots brewing is still Shaune of Hill Farmstead but just under a different moniker.

So in this one hes using adjuncts. Which makes me think he's may be using adjuncts in his other beers as well but just didn't list? Why would he all of sudden start using them in just a simple IPA? Interesting stuff lol

Interesting read. I wonder why it didn't say Grassroots on the whiteboard at the brewery.

I read recently that Abner has citra in it but it's not listed in the ingredients either. I find it hard to believe they'd list some ingredients and not others though.

 

[kaz4121]

My google-fu dug up the fact that Shaune is very good friends with John Kimmich way before he started HF. If at one point Shaune was using John's conan strain then this makes sense.

I believe that is the case, but more importantly, Shaun was friends with Greg Noonan who granted both access to Conan (his strain).

 

[Callacave]

Shaun had a blog dating back to 2008. There's a link in reddit somewhere that takes you to it, but redirects to the Hill Farmstead website. If you stop the browser from loading before it redirects, you can still read the blog. Really cool stuff. There's some talk of relationships with various brewers, Kimmich is one of them.

Plus, you can see the beginnings of some Hill brews being born. Also, he gives you a glimpse of the amount of hopping on some of his brews. If I remember correctly, and did the math properly, one of his brews came out to about 24 oz per 5 gals. I think that was Ephraim. Another was 15 oz, so don't be afraid that you're using too many hops. One beer was dry hopped three times. Twice in the fermenter.

I'm seeing some people here starting to think 1318 isn't what he's using. I've been feeling that way for a while. I just can't pick up the esters from 1318 in his beers.

Another thing that may have been overlooked, and I mentioned it a while back, is it looks like he's fermenting with a bunging valve on his new setup. He mentioned it on Twitter a little while back, and he's doing about 5 psi at first, then ramping it up. This is known to reduce ester production, and by ramping, I'm guessing he's also getting a head start on carbing the beer naturally?

Grassroots is basically something that Shaun started while over in Denmark with Ryan Witter-Merithew. I think Ryan took over when Shaun came back to VT, and then Shaun took the name back later on, but you'll see some stuff being brewed with Anchorage that has the Grassroots name. It's really just an offshoot name for when any of these guys do colabs. Ironically, Ryan moved back here after being head brewer at Siren Craft, and is working for Shaun!! I love the fact these two guys are now working together.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Shaun had a blog dating back to 2008. There's a link in reddit somewhere that takes you to it, but redirects to the Hill Farmstead website. If you stop the browser from loading before it redirects, you can still read the blog. Really cool stuff. There's some talk of relationships with various brewers, Kimmich is one of them.

Plus, you can see the beginnings of some Hill brews being born. Also, he gives you a glimpse of the amount of hopping on some of his brews. If I remember correctly, and did the math properly, one of his brews came out to about 24 oz per 5 gals. I think that was Ephraim. Another was 15 oz, so don't be afraid that you're using too many hops. One beer was dry hopped three times. Twice in the fermenter.

I'm seeing some people here starting to think 1318 isn't what he's using. I've been feeling that way for a while. I just can't pick up the esters from 1318 in his beers.

Another thing that may have been overlooked, and I mentioned it a while back, is it looks like he's fermenting with a bunging valve on his new setup. He mentioned it on Twitter a little while back, and he's doing about 5 psi at first, then ramping it up. This is known to reduce ester production, and by ramping, I'm guessing he's also getting a head start on carbing the beer naturally?

Grassroots is basically something that Shaun started while over in Denmark with Ryan Witter-Merithew. I think Ryan took over when Shaun came back to VT, and then Shaun took the name back later on, but you'll see some stuff being brewed with Anchorage that has the Grassroots name. It's really just an offshoot name for when any of these guys do colabs. Ironically, Ryan moved back here after being head brewer at Siren Craft, and is working for Shaun!! I love the fact these two guys are now working together.

link? Also, just curious, if you had to describe the esters of 1318, what are you getting? I drinking some fermented and dry hopped at 74 degrees, and all i can taste and smell are citra. Believe me, I am not saying that he is using 1318, but I do not think its that far off... Also, how did that beer we spoke about come out?

 

[Callacave]

link? Also, just curious, if you had to describe the esters of 1318, what are you getting? I drinking some fermented and dry hopped at 74 degrees, and all i can taste and smell are citra. Believe me, I am not saying that he is using 1318, but I do not think its that far off... Also, how did that beer we spoke about come out?

I don't remember the link, but maybe a Hill search on reddit can find it. I just read it yesterday. If I can find it again I'll post it.

It's been a while since I've used 1318, and I'm not the best at picking out specific flavors from esters, but maybe what someone else on a previous reply said here, it's possibly a berry type of flavor? It's at least unique enough that I think I might be able to pick it out again if I had something fermented with it. I'm surprised you're not picking up any esters, especially at 74F, but maybe the hops are covering a bunch of that, or your taste buds have become accustomed to 1318?

Haven't had much time for brewing, but it's still on my list mosaic. I'm going to do some stouts when I get a chance, but hopefully I can fit in another hoppy ale.

 

[Callacave]

Here's the link to Shaun's original blog guys.... http://hillfarmstead.blogspot.com/

You have to click on the "X" on your browser or ESC on your computer to stop it from completely loading and redirecting you to the Hill Farmstead site. Some cool stuff on here.

 

[Colbizle]

link? Also, just curious, if you had to describe the esters of 1318, what are you getting? I drinking some fermented and dry hopped at 74 degrees, and all i can taste and smell are citra. Believe me, I am not saying that he is using 1318, but I do not think its that far off... Also, how did that beer we spoke about come out?

I get lots of stone fruit flavors and aroma at 70F +.

I'm planning on doing an IPA with a 3 split this weekend with 1318, Conan, 1272 at 66F ish. I may even throw 1318 in a corny and try fermenting under pressure to see where that takes me..

Also how quickly you guys are turning around 1318? Maybe I'm turning it around too quick and it needs more time. I have been doing 1.050-60 ales in around 2 weeks primary including dryhop and a few days to carb.

 

[hopsandhops]

Has anyone tried 1318 in the lower 60s (wort temp)?

I generally primary 1318 for 15-19 days. It's such a slow yeast to finish! My last brew dropped 4 points between days 10 and 14.

@Callacave Thanks for that link! What a great read

 

[Colbizle]

Has anyone tried 1318 in the lower 60s (wort temp)?

I generally primary 1318 for 15-19 days. It's such a slow yeast to finish! My last brew dropped 4 points between days 10 and 14.

@Callacave Thanks for that link! What a great read

I fermented my last oatmeal stout at 64-66F. I'll post back with results on ester productions.

@Callacave brings up a good point tho. Perhaps Shaune is using 1318 fermenting on the high at 67-68F but under pressure to suppress ester production.

 

[bierhaus15]

Fermenting under pressure for ester suppression is really only practical in large CCV fermentors and requires pressure tolerant lager yeasts. You can't just take any yeast - especially an ale - and ferment it warm under pressure and get significant reductions in esters without other more serious problems. Also, the most likely reason for spunding valves is for carbonation, which saves C02 and can contribute to a finer, softer carbonation. It also eliminates 02 exposure. Lots of small breweries use them, especially in Europe, and I know a few US breweries that do the same mostly for the cost saving.

 

[Kiichi]

Fermenting under pressure for ester suppression is really only practical in large CCV fermentors and requires pressure tolerant lager yeasts. You can't just take any yeast - especially an ale - and ferment it warm under pressure and get significant reductions in esters without other more serious problems. Also, the most likely reason for spunding valves is for carbonation, which saves C02 and can contribute to a finer, softer carbonation. It also eliminates 02 exposure.

Considering that as true, a possible explanation for Shaun using this is not the lowered ester production, but perhaps the finer, softer carbonation, which should contribute to the mouthfeel we chase here. Right?

 

[LSUGrad00]

Wanted to stop in and say thanks to everyone who has contributed here.

I've been experimenting with these same variables (Mash/Final pH, water, yeast) for the past two years and have arrived at a lot of the same conclusions as you guys. It's great to find some like minded folks and hope I can contribute down the road.

This is the profile I've been using for my IPAs recently and have been happy with the results, but still not perfect.

Ca: 134
Mg: 10
Na: 8
SO: 190
Cl: 134

I think I'll try cutting those sulfates in half like so many others here are doing and see how that turns out.

Here's the link to Shaun's original blog guys.... http://hillfarmstead.blogspot.com/

I found this a year or so ago and printed all of the blog entries on the off chance they pulled it offline. I still have the PDFs if anyone is interested.

 

[Kiichi]

Ca: 134
Mg: 10
Na: 8
SO: 190
Cl: 134

I think I'll try cutting those sulfates in half like so many others here are doing and see how that turns out.

Since Shaun said that for saisons he recommends sulfates at 100-200 for saisons to bring the hops and dryness out cutting them by at least 50 sounds reasonable to me. Might just do that step first though before going to 100.

 

[LSUGrad00]

Might just do that step first though before going to 100.

Thanks! I'll give it a shot this week.

I was planning on brewing a DIPA this week for a local festival, but my hop order has been stuck somewhere in Idaho for almost a week with all of the wild fires.

May end up brewing a Mosaic/Centennial/Amarillo APA instead.

btw this 'Strawberry Vanilla Cake Weizen' sounds awesome.

 

[Kiichi]

Thanks! I'll give it a shot this week.

I was planning on brewing a DIPA this week for a local festival, but my hop order has been stuck somewhere in Idaho for almost a week with all of the wild fires.

May end up brewing a Mosaic/Centennial/Amarillo APA instead.

btw this 'Strawberry Vanilla Cake Weizen' sounds awesome.

It would be really interesting how a change of around 50 would turn out if the rest is so tuned in. Even if you go half it would be cool to hear. Harder to do with a hop composition you are not used to though.

I still have not tried that strawberry one. I went for full mouthfeel with more conventional methods there (oats, crystal, & lactose). Will have the first bottle at the end of the month. Loads of German handpicked local strawberries, 3 vanilla beans, good hit of crystal malts, lotta biscuit, Schneider Weisse Weizen yeast, handful of rose petals, and some lactose. Certainly tasted incredible at bottling. Just not sure about the conditioning perioud. So exiting.

 

[gotbags-10]

Alright so hoping to brew today. Working on water. Using 100% RO. Right now CA is 75
MG 15.6
NA 28
SO 85
CL 150

I use a system kinda compared to the brew easy so full volume mashing recirculating between two kettles. With this profile my mash ph is 5.5 obviously some sort of acid malt or lactic is needed. I can get it to 5.4 with lactic but my bicarbonate drops from 16 to -7. Everyone seems to be using at least 16 or even higher. I also tried to acid malt but any addition brought ph down to 5.1 so no go. Wondering what affect the low Bicarbonate would have for this style we are working for.? Also my alkalinity is down to -6. Is that two low?

 

[Braufessor]

If you are using RO water, there is (for all practical purposes) no bicarbonate anyway - so that number is irrelevant to what you are doing. Use a touch of lactic acid to put your pH around 5.3-5.45 and you should be good.

 

[bbohanon]

My Quinn The Eskimo IPA was built around alot of this information and is about a week in the fermenter. Going to start dry hopping it tomorrow night for a week, xfer it to a keg and dryhop it for a second week and will report back here how it turns out with GBill, water prof and pics of the finished product. I hoping its close to what we are seeing with Colbizz and ProfBraus results.

So my result, my Quinn The Eskimo IPA turned out very nice but the hop profile was a bit more muted than I was expecting..its got a very nice smooth taste but I think I will adjust it a bit more water profile wise and hop usage when I find time to run another IPA batch...I usually dont brew IPA's regularly and its time for my to fire up the pumpkin and octoberfest batches so it may be spring before I whip up another try at this.
I DO think this thread is getting us close to this desired result however. My IPA beer buddies will soak this batch up quickly for sure.

Pic of Quinn The Eskimo 2 weeks in the keg gradually carbed: