Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Oldsock]

I have been having good luck with the following profile recently..... I have been using 60% RO water and 40% high bicarbonate tap water.

For anyone starting with more neutral water, no reason to add carbonate to a pale beer. I dilute my tap water with RO/distilled as well specifically to dilute carbonate. That way you need less acid to get the pH down to the target range.

 

[Colbizle]

This is interesting. Anyone heard of Tanal A? From the description it sounds like it keeps yeast in suspension permanently..

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=12

 

[Callacave]

This is interesting. Anyone heard of Tanal A? From the description it sounds like it keeps yeast in suspension permanently..

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=12

Man, they have everything. Wonder if any commercial brewers use this

 

[olotti]

How different do these three beers taste? I've not been lucky enough to try any HF beers (or Tree House for that matter) but it blows my mind that the three beers above have the same hops and same base grain yet can have such different flavors. Damn I love this hobby!

I'd guess their doing mostly a single bittering charge and huge late hop or just whirlpool additions, simple grain bills and dextrose with low mash temp to dry the beer out otherwise a 5% beer at 85ibus would be mouth puckering bitter. Seems from those recipes their doing the same recipe just with diff hops.

 

[kaz4121]

Man, they have everything. Wonder if any commercial brewers use this

They certainly do, as the packaging is geared for commercial volumes, not homebrew volumes. A quick search on pro brewer confirms this.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Interesting. Do you think those guys like Hill farmstead, tired hands, and Tree house are purposely choosing low flocculating yeast for their non american style beers. For example, is Hill farmstead's Belgian beers as hazy as his american beers?

yes, I believe they are the result of being very fresh, and trying to keep the yeast in suspension. IMO the saisons are much clearer. I think they would eventually clear if kept in the fridge for a few weeks.

 

[Colbizle]

yes, I believe they are the result of being very fresh, and trying to keep the yeast in suspension. IMO the saisons are much clearer. I think they would eventually clear if kept in the fridge for a few weeks.

Interesting, thanks for the insight. I'd assume his American beers would probably clarify after a few weeks in a bottle or growler and would change the mouthfeel.. Maybe that's why he doesn't like distributing?

 

[bbohanon]

yes, I believe they are the result of being very fresh, and trying to keep the yeast in suspension. IMO the saisons are much clearer. I think they would eventually clear if kept in the fridge for a few weeks.

Agreed with this..Even HTopper will clear up if left in the fridge long enough and that beer looks like orange juice when its consumed fresh. I proved that by leaving a can in there for almost 6 months. Was as clear as a bell by then.

 

[Colbizle]

Agreed with this..Even HTopper will clear up if left in the fridge long enough and that beer looks like orange juice when its consumed fresh. I proved that by leaving a can in there for almost 6 months. Was as clear as a bell by then.

Nice! haha. Did you notice a change in flavor, mouthfeel, ect?

 

[bbohanon]

Nice! haha. Did you notice a change in flavor, mouthfeel, ect?

It was a much different beer than it was fresh, thats for sure..Was quite a bit thinner and more harsh on the front end hop bite wise..I only drank about half of it as when it started to get warmed up, it just got too bitter for me.

I usually dont drink much HTopper (or any DIIPA) due to that amount of hops giving me wicked indigestion if I have more than one at a sitting which is how that can got left in the fridge that long..

I love IPA's and DIIPA's but my GI tract does not.

 

[Colbizle]

It was a much different beer than it was fresh, thats for sure..Was quite a bit thinner and more harsh on the front end hop bite wise..I only drank about half of it as when it started to get warmed up, it just got too bitter for me.

I usually dont drink much HTopper (or any DIIPA) due to that amount of hops giving me wicked indigestion if I have more than one at a sitting which is how that can got left in the fridge that long..

I love IPA's and DIIPA's but my GI tract does not.

Good to know.

Yep, totally feel ya, acid reflux camp for me. But it's kind of one of those "hurt's so good" things haha..

 

[more_betterness]

Been following this thread for a bit, so it's about time to contribute!

Brewed a beer inspired by HF Abner as follows:

6.5 Gallons
OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014
SRM: 5
IBU: 108

17 Lbs 2 Row
0.63 Lbs Crystal 10
1 lb Dextrose

Mash @ 150
Mash pH 5.3

Water Profile:
70 ppm S04
150 ppm Cl
75 ppm Ca
25 ppm Mg
50 ppm Na


1.65 oz Warrior @ 90
1.0 oz CTZ @ 5

30 minute hop stand at 170 degrees:
2.00 oz Centennial
2.00 oz Chinook
2.00 oz Simcoet

Fermented w/Wyeast 1318 @ 67

Double Dry hop for 5 days per addition with:
2.00 oz Simcoe
1.00 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial
Per addition

This beer has turned out incredible. Crazy airy and soft mouthfeel with a juicy and resinous hop aroma and flavor that pairs perfect with the fruity yeast esters. Was a bit concerned when pulling samples before conditioning as bitterness was quite high, but at this point can attribute that to excessive yeast (1318 doesn't flocculate at all) and hop matter still in suspension. Brewed a very "West Coast" style IPA in conjunction with this one and the difference is incredible.

Cheers to everyone contributing here!

 

[gotbags-10]

Hmm might have my next recipe for this week

 

[IanJ]

I'm still curious about the mineral content of their well water. As I'm sitting here drinking a Lost Nation Gose and (I'm sure people will disagree with me, but that's besides the point) it also has a bit of that pillowy mouth-feel, much like HF beers, and arguably other beer in that region.

Suspecting there's something about the water in that region... getting a water report from well water in that area might help point all of us in that general direction of mineral content.

I have family that lives about 30 minutes from HF and they're using well water. On top of that, my family member who lives there is an engineer for public works (specifically water) for the entire Waterbury, VT area.

So where I'm going with this, is that I may be able to get some reports from their well and other stuff in that area assuming it's not already publicly posted somewhere. I'll see if I can find out more and edit this. Also, as wells probably vary drastically it's not necessarily going to be conclusive, but might be some indicator as to that whole part of it.

Will return with more info...

 

[Callacave]

more betterness,

That looks great, and your results are spot on with what everybody has been experiencing. Thanks for your input. Less is more, I think, when it comes to water, or at least less sulfate and more chloride! The west coast can have dried out, overly bitter hoppy ales. Give me that soft, full, pillowy mouthfeel with huge hop flavor/aroma and just enough bitterness to back everything up.

I almost gave up on 1318, but now I think I'm going to try it again. I've got some left from a harvest that I might use for my next one. Got a split batch I did over the weekend that's fermenting. It's 100 sulfate and 125 chloride. I used Conan, and I haven't used it in a long time, so it'll be interesting for me.

Cheers!

 

[more_betterness]

It's been mentioned before in this thread, but I know Shaun is very attentive to pH during all stages of the brewing process as well. My key to making hoppy beers that I was happy with was when I finally began to focus on mash pH rather than solely my water profile and assuming things would just fall in line. Would be interested to see results from experimenting with pH adjustment at points other than the mash in conjunction with the adjusted water profile!

Callacave, I get similar a similar profile from 1318 that I seem to recall in the HF IPAs I've had, but it's been a while. That being said some of the best beers I've made have been with Conan! Let us know how it turns out!

 

[bbohanon]

Been following this thread for a bit, so it's about time to contribute!

Brewed a beer inspired by HF Abner as follows:

6.5 Gallons
OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014
SRM: 5
IBU: 108

17 Lbs 2 Row
0.63 Lbs Crystal 10
1 lb Dextrose

Mash @ 150
Mash pH 5.3

Water Profile:
70 ppm S04
150 ppm Cl
75 ppm Ca
25 ppm Mg
50 ppm Na


1.65 oz Warrior @ 90
1.0 oz CTZ @ 5

30 minute hop stand at 170 degrees:
2.00 oz Centennial
2.00 oz Chinook
2.00 oz Simcoet

Fermented w/Wyeast 1318 @ 67

Double Dry hop for 5 days per addition with:
2.00 oz Simcoe
1.00 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial
Per addition

This beer has turned out incredible. Crazy airy and soft mouthfeel with a juicy and resinous hop aroma and flavor that pairs perfect with the fruity yeast esters. Was a bit concerned when pulling samples before conditioning as bitterness was quite high, but at this point can attribute that to excessive yeast (1318 doesn't flocculate at all) and hop matter still in suspension. Brewed a very "West Coast" style IPA in conjunction with this one and the difference is incredible.

Cheers to everyone contributing here!

May need to give this a go as well..Did you start with RO or distilled water with this batch and go from there on your water profile?

 

[Kiichi]

Alright, the brew I applied a lot of the things here to is ready. It´s a Hallertau Blanc single hop IPA at 7,8%. Since it is the first I tried this way it does not say a lot of specifics, that can only happen when I do another, varied, version of it. I do feel confident in confirming that the water chemistry is important. I went with around 124 chloride and 90 sulfate. Next time I will increase both a bit, probably 150-175 chloride and 120 sulfate as I think I can improve both feel and hop bite. Only hit a mash PH of 5.5, which will go down too next time.

Sides that I believe that carapils or equivalents are really good for what we try to achieve here. They add some feel without much flavor. Recommend adding up to half a pound or so of it.

A big hop stand definetly helps get that Vermont style hop saturation and haze. I did tepid with a load of hops for 70min. 5oz total. Next time I might spread em out through different hopstand ranges though to get more different flavor profiles.

Priming to 2.4 is too high imho. Will do 2.3 max in the future.

A touch of wheat malt, up to 10% I´d say, seems to help too and gives a lovely little flavor note too.

 

[g-star]

I do feel confident in confirming that the water chemistry is important. I went with around 124 chloride and 90 sulfate. Next time I will increase both a bit, probably 150-175 chloride and 120 sulfate as I think I can improve both feel and hop bite.

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

 

[more_betterness]

May need to give this a go as well..Did you start with RO or distilled water with this batch and go from there on your water profile?

100% Distilled! Those ppm are all what I was targeting, forgot to record the actual amounts we ended up with but they were all within 5 ppm of the targets.

 

[Oldsock]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

Source?

 

[Colbizle]

Source?

Taken from some notes I have:

Originally posted by MartinB in another forum but:

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

There are more listed, but I'm tired of typing. The ranges cover a lot of styles and countries of origin, but this does give you an indication of many ions that malt contributes. In the case of Mg, malt supplies about 1 g Mg per kg of grain. Ca is supplied at the rate of about 0.3 g per kg of grain. If all that content makes it into the wort, that equates to about 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Mg.

As you can see, malt is a big contributor of necessary ions for yeast growth and health. Adding those ions to water is NOT necessary for the yeast. But we do like to add them for more flavor in our beer!

The other question that is answered here is that chloride is indeed supplied by malt. So the result shown above is a reasonable representation of a beer."

 

[Colbizle]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

Why do you continue to be a proponent that small adjustments to water minerals doesn't have any effect? This theory couldn't possibly be farther from the truth being that if you ever made a beer with 150 sulfates and compare it to a beer with 200 sulfates you can definetly taste the difference!! Otherwise then we should just forget about adjusting water minerals all together which is not what the pros do. They DO adjust their water! I have a good friend who is a successful pro brewer and guess what? He adjusts his water profile with minerals and his beer are well rated!

 

[Oldsock]

Originally posted by MartinB in another forum but:

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

Those are the amounts of finished beer brewed with non-distilled water though, correct? Hard to know for sure how much is coming from the malt with such a big range, considering the variability of source waters/treatment.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

 

[Colbizle]

Those are the amounts of finished beer brewed with non-distilled water though, correct? Hard to know for sure how much is coming from the malt with such a big range, considering the variability of source waters/treatment.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

Correct, it was in regards to someone who got Heady Topper's water profile tested and it came back with a crazy mineral content profile. I forget what the thread link was.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

I agree.

 

[Kiichi]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

I was just going off of the numbers I read in this thread. So are you saying mineral additions of sulfate and chloride are not needed / useless? That would seem to contradict a lot of what was discussed here and leave just about only PH.

Doing any of those adjustments already has given me a result and it was an adjustment in the 50-ish range as well. If that is gravely noticable a 25-50 adjustment surely must be too if I am not fallen victim to the placebo effect and missing really big science here, which I would never count out.

 

[Colbizle]

I was just going off of the numbers I read in this thread. So are you saying mineral additions of sulfate and chloride are not needed / useless? That would seem to contradict a lot of what was discussed here and leave just about only PH.

I see what you are saying and it sounds plausible to me (not that I know anything really), but it seems weird as well. Could it be that the initial additions affect the mash and that makes them important even though total numbers are hardly affected?

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

 

[Callacave]

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

Exactly, and i like to think that when a commercial brewery uses a certain brand of malt consistently, and even though the mineral content that it adds can vary, I'm sure it's consistent enough to where they get the recipe dialed in with regards to water.

 

[wolfbrosbrewing]

Such a great read guys! Thanks!

 

[Kiichi]

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

I completly agree with this. That is why I was questioning the sentiment that malt add so much that other mineral additions have to be huge to be noticable to the extend that 50ppm difference are not noticable, which is what g-star said.