Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Colbizle]

Ok - Here is what I am thinking:

60% Tap, 40% RO.

Gonna add some canning salt to bump up sodium (which is know to increase fullness of beer) and mimic a little bit the possibility of "softener water."

Additions:
Gypsum - .4gr/gal
CaCl - .25gr/gal
Salt - .2gr/gal
Epsom - .1 gr/gal

Finished water #'s in the boil Kettle:
Ca = 85
Mg = 15
Na =27
Sulfate = 101
Chloride = 71
Bicarbonate = 175

.8ml/ gallon lactic acid

Estimated mash pH 5.42

Thoughts???? Kind of looking to try something totally different here as other attempts seem to produce good beers..... but not what we are really searching for either.

This got me thinking. In bru'un water many believe and even the creator Martin think that the SO4/CL ratio is irrelevant but maybe this is just in higher concentrations? Like for example we know 150/150 would be a 1:1 would be very harsh (I did 175/100 recently and found it too much) but maybe at lower concentrations like 75:85 the ratio is more like 1:1 and the reaction is different.. We know from trial and error Shaun can't be possibly doing high sulfate with high chloride.. so he must be doing some like a 1:1 ratio at lower concentrations? I dunno, I'm Just thinking out loud here and throwing sh!t at the wall...

I still think this quote is money:
"All of our beers have a unique profile - and each are adjusted accordingly. Some are heavier on sulfate, some less. All have chloride. It's a process of trial and error to achieve that which best suits your taste."

But what is his perception of heavy on sulfate, it must be lower then what most of us think heavy, when I think heavy I think 300ppm which I've gone on a esb with decent results but with low chloride 50ppm.

Also I agree with sodium. I often target 25ppm with good results with all my hoppy beers way before I started chasing the hill farmstead mouthfeel

I'm going to start brewing a hoppy strong ale (i.e. investigation ale / arrogant bastard inspired type beer) here in a couple hours and I'm still debating on what levels I'm going to target. I'm thinking 75:100 but at the same time I feel like that could end up being too much and I keep going back and forth on my adjustments.

With all that said, bru'un waters Pale ale water profile 300ppm/50ppm which I have used many a time.. so 50ppm chloride I know won't give us the mouthfeel we are looking for and I'm not sure 10 or 20 more points will either..(but I could be wrong.)

 

[Braufessor]

mine is in the mash tun as outlined above. Guess we will see what it brings in 10-14 days or so. I went with a basic APA that I brew a lot. 1.055 gravity. 2Row/Maris blend on the base. 4 ounces each of honey malt, cara 20, flaked wheat and flaked oats. Going with Vermont ale yeast (giga yeast version). Bitter with warrior and then citra after that.
2 ounce flame out
3 ounce hop stand at 140
2 ounce dry hop

I generally try to do most of my experimenting on a beer like this because I brew it all the time. It is relatively simple and straightforward. I don't want to F around experimenting on a real big beer or complex beer, etc.

Another totally random thought. Most of those beers we are talking about are cloudy, hazy etc........ hard water makes star san cloudy. Does hard water lend a cloudy/hazy character to beer???? Just a thought as I sit here staring at my cloudy star san......

 

[bierhaus15]

You guys are over thinking this. Shaun is brewing on what is basically a large brewpub system, making 3,000 bbls of beer a year. That is tiny. Breweries that size do not invest money in expensive water systems or the lab equipment necessary to track relevant water adjustments. When I visited the brewery in 2013, there was nothing there that would indicate he had ion exchange or RO. Unless he dumped a bunch of money into a water system, he's using his hard-ish well water and adjusting pH with brewing salts and possibly with acid. And that's a maybe on the acid.

As for ion concentrations, adjusting from 100 to 300ppm really isn't that significant, besides the respective change in pH, when comparative fermentation and brewing processes are completely different. He's using hard water because that's whats available to him. What is really significant to us is processes - yeast choice, pitch rate, oxygenation, filtered/fined or not, beer acidity... these all have significantly more impact on flavor/mouthfeel than how much carbonate or CaS04/CaCl2 is in his beer. Brewing with hard water is a good place to start, but it is not the whole equation.

 

[Braufessor]

You guys are over thinking this. Shaun is brewing on what is basically a large brewpub system, making 3,000 bbls of beer a year. That is tiny. Breweries that size do not invest money in expensive water systems or the lab equipment necessary to track relevant water adjustments. When I visited the brewery in 2013, there was nothing there that would indicate he had ion exchange or RO. Unless he dumped a bunch of money into a water system, he's using his hard-ish well water and adjusting pH with brewing salts and possibly with acid. And that's a maybe on the acid.

As for ion concentrations, adjusting from 100 to 300ppm really isn't that significant, besides the respective change in pH, when comparative fermentation and brewing processes are completely different. He's using hard water because that's whats available to him. What is really significant to us is processes - yeast choice, pitch rate, oxygenation, filtered/fined or not, beer acidity... these all have significantly more impact on flavor/mouthfeel than how much carbonate or CaS04/CaCl2 is in his beer. Brewing with hard water is a good place to start, but it is not the whole equation.

Pretty much what I was trying to get at in post 148..... I agree. I think (guess) they are treating hard well water for pH to get to what they brew with. That is what I am trying to mimic a little in the brew I am going with right now.

I think bicarbonate can have a significant impact possibly. when I brew dark beers I use my very high bicarbonate tap water...... and my porters have a very full, silky feeling to them. I have also read similar in other areas. Perhaps that bicarbonate can also round out hoppy lighter beers if acid is used to offset pH issues....???

Also, I do think there is a rather significant difference when you are comparing 100 to 300 ppm of sulfate for example..... to me, that makes a BIG difference in the perception of the beer. I have played with that a lot and I think I can absolutely tell the difference if we are talking about those kinds of extremes.

I will be curious to see what comes of this beer I am brewing right now..... it is a rather dramatic departure from what I would normally do in regard to overall water profile.

 

[Colbizle]

You guys are over thinking this. Shaun is brewing on what is basically a large brewpub system, making 3,000 bbls of beer a year. That is tiny. Breweries that size do not invest money in expensive water systems or the lab equipment necessary to track relevant water adjustments. When I visited the brewery in 2013, there was nothing there that would indicate he had ion exchange or RO. Unless he dumped a bunch of money into a water system, he's using his hard-ish well water and adjusting pH with brewing salts and possibly with acid. And that's a maybe on the acid.

As for ion concentrations, adjusting from 100 to 300ppm really isn't that significant, besides the respective change in pH, when comparative fermentation and brewing processes are completely different. He's using hard water because that's whats available to him. What is really significant to us is processes - yeast choice, pitch rate, oxygenation, filtered/fined or not, beer acidity... these all have significantly more impact on flavor/mouthfeel than how much carbonate or CaS04/CaCl2 is in his beer. Brewing with hard water is a good place to start, but it is not the whole equation.

"adjusting from 100 to 300ppm really isn't that significant"

Of course it is. My own experiments have proved that big of a swing is very significant. I've even got scoresheets to prove it. What you keep re-iterating about the other control points have already been discussed earlier in the thread. Have you tried experimenting with your own water adjustments? It doesn't sound like it.

Everything I've read straight from shauns mouth has indicated he's very much about water adjustments, to what degree, We don't know, that's why some of us are contributing our own time and money with experimenting in this department and sharing it on this thread.

 

[Braufessor]

So, I ended up with these for pH readings from my post #149:

Mash pH = 5.39
Final Runnings from mash tun = 5.49
Kettle pH at start of boil = 5.42

 

[Callacave]

Keep it up guys! This is great. I won't be able to brew for a few weeks, but I'll be curious on both of your results.

 

[irishrover32]

Pretty much what I was trying to get at in post 148..... I agree. I think (guess) they are treating hard well water for pH to get to what they brew with. That is what I am trying to mimic a little in the brew I am going with right now.

I think bicarbonate can have a significant impact possibly. when I brew dark beers I use my very high bicarbonate tap water...... and my porters have a very full, silky feeling to them. I have also read similar in other areas. Perhaps that bicarbonate can also round out hoppy lighter beers if acid is used to offset pH issues....???

Also, I do think there is a rather significant difference when you are comparing 100 to 300 ppm of sulfate for example..... to me, that makes a BIG difference in the perception of the beer. I have played with that a lot and I think I can absolutely tell the difference if we are talking about those kinds of extremes.

I will be curious to see what comes of this beer I am brewing right now..... it is a rather dramatic departure from what I would normally do in regard to overall water profile.

you raised an interesting point on bicarbonates, iv heard from john palmer alkalinity plays a role in mouthfeel so adding bicarbonates is important, 0-50 PPM is the recommended amount for light coloured beers so i think the nearer you can get to 50ppm the better, im going to try this for my next brew. on my recent brew which is being dry hopped at the moment iv gone with this profile
cl - 82
mg - 10
caco3 - 116
na - 53
ca - 51
sl - 41
RA - 51

it was a darker coloured beer around 13 SRM and the ca/sl ratio gave me a balanced ratio, im interested to see how this effects things as you can see the chloride exceeds the sulfate and is relativly low across the board while keeping the sodium level high with a high-ish CACO3 for a darker beer, i have to say it was the best tasting beer iv had out of the fermentor but i did change my process by not dry hopping in primary which gave me fantastically clear beer with WLP007 after 10 days

 

[g-star]

Interesting thread. I recently had the chance to try several HF beers, and they do live up to the hype. The mouthfeel is unique and helps set these beers apart.

My perspective is that chasing a specific ionic water profile with the hopes of achieving that mouthfeel is misguided. Water is important, but I believe he was referring more to getting the correct mash/kettle/final pH than a specific mineral content. Based on the comments about chloride, I think best practice would be to focus on achieving the correct pH with mostly CaCl2 and/or acid additions. Based on things we know about other famous Vermont brewers, I would say to shoot for a low pH (5.2 - 5.3 in the kettle).

I have to believe ultimately though that the mouthfeel is more attributable to yeast strain perhaps aided by a high mash temp. We know some of these beers have a relatively high final gravity. The unfiltered appearance and the knowledge that they use a house English/Conan-derivative yeast strain seems to support this. Unless they're lying, the posted grain bills show no adjuncts/flaked grains.

If one could get the beer regularly, I would think that a full anion/cation analysis and a successful culture of the house yeast pitched into a simple pale ale recipe would provide a great deal of insight.

Any takers?

 

[Braufessor]

I wonder about 1318 for the yeast??

 

[irishrover32]

I wonder about 1318 for the yeast??

im using this in my next brew and using a similiar malt bill to what shaun might use, should finish around 1.014, gonna shoot for alkalinity in the upper 40's and use a 1:1 ratio of sulfate to chloride and keep them low around the 70's ppm


Boil Size: 28.30 l
Post Boil Volume: 23.00 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l
Bottling Volume: 23.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 5.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
5.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 83.3 %
0.50 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.3 %
0.50 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 15EBC (7.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.3 %
10.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 4 9.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
20.00 g Centennial [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 4.1 IBUs
20.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 6.2 IBUs
10.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 3.0 IBUs
70.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 Hop 9 10.0 IBUs
30.00 g Centennial [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5 Hop 10 2.8 IBUs
10.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 Hop 11 1.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124. Yeast 12 -
60.00 g Simcoe [9.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
30.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
15.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
40.00 g Simcoe [9.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 16 0.0 IBUs
20.00 g Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 17 0.0 IBUs
15.00 g Chinook [12.70 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 18 0.0 IBUs

 

[Colbizle]

I wonder about 1318 for the yeast??

I've been using 1318 with good results. Had no trouble hitting my target estimated FG. One thing to mention is that it does contribute a ever so slight residual sweetness even in the absence of a residual sugars or a high FG. Very soft strain. Right now I have two other beers fermenting with it (third generation). I'm wondering if the characteristics will change with multiple generations. We will see.

 

[Colbizle]

Interesting thread. I recently had the chance to try several HF beers, and they do live up to the hype. The mouthfeel is unique and helps set these beers apart.

My perspective is that chasing a specific ionic water profile with the hopes of achieving that mouthfeel is misguided. Water is important, but I believe he was referring more to getting the correct mash/kettle/final pH than a specific mineral content. Based on the comments about chloride, I think best practice would be to focus on achieving the correct pH with mostly CaCl2 and/or acid additions. Based on things we know about other famous Vermont brewers, I would say to shoot for a low pH (5.2 - 5.3 in the kettle).

I have to believe ultimately though that the mouthfeel is more attributable to yeast strain perhaps aided by a high mash temp. We know some of these beers have a relatively high final gravity. The unfiltered appearance and the knowledge that they use a house English/Conan-derivative yeast strain seems to support this. Unless they're lying, the posted grain bills show no adjuncts/flaked grains.

If one could get the beer regularly, I would think that a full anion/cation analysis and a successful culture of the house yeast pitched into a simple pale ale recipe would provide a great deal of insight.

Any takers?

Shaun has stated multiple times he prefers more chloride than other brewers think to put it. What you've mentioned has already been discussed in lengths earlier in the the thread. Will just a specific mineral profile be the end all be all? No, but it is a significant contributing factor with regards to yeast, ph, mash temp ect. We know that. A low mash ph is 5.2-5.3 will result in a thinner, crisper mouth feel. High mash ph 5.4-5.5 will give a rounder and fuller mouthfeel.

 

[g-star]

Shaun has stated multiple times he prefers more chloride than other brewers think to put it. What you've mentioned has already been discussed in lengths earlier in the the thread. Will just a specific mineral profile be the end all be all? No, but it is a significant contributing factor with regards to yeast, ph, mash temp ect. We know that. A low mash ph is 5.2-5.3 will result in a thinner, crisper mouth feel. High mash ph 5.4-5.5 will give a rounder and fuller mouthfeel.

Take it easy chief, I was just offering my perspective. Knock yourself out if you think the chloride is a key parameter.

Would also like to know your source with regards to a high mash pH giving a "rounder and fuller mouthfeel". Mash pH is important for conversion, but the final beer pH is what will be what determines the acidity/flavor relationship. This can be adjusted in the kettle, irrespective of whatever pH you mash at.

 

[Colbizle]

Take it easy chief, I was just offering my perspective. Knock yourself out if you think the chloride is a key parameter.

Would also like to know your source with regards to a high mash pH giving a "rounder and fuller mouthfeel". Mash pH is important for conversion, but the final beer pH is what will be what determines the acidity/flavor relationship. This can be adjusted in the kettle, irrespective of whatever pH you mash at.

Not sure why you're getting defense, you gave your opinion and I just said the info you provided has already been discussed earlier in the thread. I understand this is becoming a lengthy thread so it's likely most people are not going to read it thoroughly but just skip to the new material. I didn't say chloride was the "key" per se but it is definitely a contributing factor. I really enjoy the info that Martin B has provided regarding water and he recommends 5.4 for hoppy styles and a better mouthfeel. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed your mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed you mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

Same here.

 

[zwiller]

If your water is very low alkalinity, you'll be fine, but if not, the results are disastrous. With my water (90ppm alkalinity) I have to acidify sparge or final pH ends up too high. Beer is "flat/tubby/dull" whatever... This a very common problem with beers I judge. Acidifying sparge keeps beer tasting like beer and not like homebrew, if you catch my drift.

I really like g-stars idea of low mash pH with high mash temps. In my mind, that would make a beer like you guys describe. In addition, I can vouch of the low pH is crisper and higher pH is softer. Spent alot of time testing that out. It's legit. What's missing from the conversation is the yeast strain's impact on pH. This is also a factor. IE chico is well known to produce less acid so you must help mash lower or the beer will end up too high >4.5.

 

[Callacave]

I've used 1318 and handful of times, and at first the esters were a little too high. This is reportedly the strain Shaun uses, but I'm still not convinced yet. My last brew with this strain I fermented cooler than usual to help reduce esters. I think it was in the low 60's, which at first I could still pick up those familiar esters, but as time went on seemed to blend better with the beer, or at least became less noticeable to me.

Of late I've been using a hybrid Maine beer co dregs mixed with 1056, and getting good results. The mouthfeel on my last beer has been amazing, but I must confess there was a pound of flaked barley in there, but I also steeped the hell out of it, and the finishing pH was around 4.40. Combined with a sulfate and chloride level of 175/100 made for what I feel was an amazing flavor and mouthfeel, although I think it was just a little too harsh from the mineral content. I think the next iteration will be with an even softer profile like some others are doing.

I think I'm learning that you don't need a high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops, and keeping proper pH all the way to the glass.

 

[Colbizle]

I've used 1318 and handful of times, and at first the esters were a little too high. This is reportedly the strain Shaun uses, but I'm still not convinced yet. My last brew with this strain I fermented cooler than usual to help reduce esters. I think it was in the low 60's, which at first I could still pick up those familiar esters, but as time went on seemed to blend better with the beer, or at least became less noticeable to me.

Of late I've been using a hybrid Maine beer co dregs mixed with 1056, and getting good results. The mouthfeel on my last beer has been amazing, but I must confess there was a pound of flaked barley in there, but I also steeped the hell out of it, and the finishing pH was around 4.40. Combined with a sulfate and chloride level of 175/100 made for what I feel was an amazing flavor and mouthfeel, although I think it was just a little too harsh from the mineral content. I think the next iteration will be with an even softer profile like some others are doing.

I think I'm learning that you don't need a high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops, and keeping proper pH all the way to the glass.

I'm curious, what is low 60s.. like 63-64F? Wyeast's website states 64F - 74F as the standard range so I'm interested on low it can go and still produce favorable results.

"you don't need high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops"

^ Me too! I'm finding that an immense amount of flavor/aroma can be achieved by large dry hop additions as well.

 

[Callacave]

I'm curious, what is low 60s.. like 63-64F? Wyeast's website states 64F - 74F as the standard range so I'm interested on low it can go and still produce favorable results.

"you don't need high sulfate level for hops to come through as long as your saturating the wort with plenty of late hops"

^ Me too! I'm finding that an immense amount of flavor/aroma can be achieved by large dry hop additions as well.

Just checked my notes. I fermented at 64, then after 3 days ramped to 66, then the day after to 68 to help finish out. The beer finished at 1.012. A Little lower than I wanted, and my sulfate/chloride additions ended up being 195/43. The beer is definitely more crisp, and more drying on the tongue compared to my recent brews with less sulfate and more chloride.

Maybe going lower to 60 would help reduce the esters even more? Maybe like someone said earlier, Shaun could be using some hybrid form of Conan. He initially used it, but switched shortly after opening.

For my next brew I'm definitely keeping it simple like Shaun does, and just doing some Rahr Pale and crystal. Want to see how pH, late hops and softer water contribute to mouthfeel.

I'm heading up to VT visit some of the wife's family in a couple of weekends, so of course I'll be making a trip to HF. It'll be a good recalibration of the taste buds to see how close I've been coming on my latest brews.

 

[g-star]

I've never adjusted in the kettle post mash because my kettle ph ends up being where it should be. I'd assume if you missed your mash ph by such great lengths that the damage has been done and adjusting kettle ph won't contribute much but I'm open to hearing more on this topic.

Cheers.

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

 

[The_Glue]

Interestingly this thread makes me want to brew my first "low-mineral" brew.
All of my previous beers had a really rough bitterness.
My water contains (in ppm) 90 Ca, 50 Mg, 50 SO4, 10 Cl, 460 (!) HCO3 by default.
Despite this i always added some gypsum to get up to 300ish ppm in SO4.
I add then some phosporic acid to get down the mash to 5.4ish ph.

Now during the boil my boil-off rate is around 33%. So i think in the finished beer i end up with 300 Ca, 75 Mg, 450 So4, 15 Cl.

Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic?

I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph.

 

[Callacave]

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

I emailed Sean Lawson a while back, and he keeps his mash pH around 5.4-5.6 (room temp) for everything he does. His beers are pretty amazing. I usually target around 5.4, and acidify my sparge to 5.5. I know lower pH can typically produce "brighter" flavors, but I think there might be a trade off regarding mouthfeel. Plus, the Pales and IPAs I've been making lately don't lack in the "bright" department.

I think flavor enhancement is really in the finished pH of your beer, and starting out at a certain point in your mash can certainly influence that, as well as the strain of yeast from what I've read, and I'm really staring to buy into the idea of saturating your wort with hops via steeping can help with that mouthfeel that we're all after.

 

[Colbizle]

You should at least take some readings. If your water is even moderately alkaline, the sparge will bring the final kettle pH up as much as 0.2 - 0.3 units if you are brewing a pale beer with little in the way of crystal malts and not acidifying. Thus you may be mashing at 5.2, but end up with a kettle pH near 5.5, which can result in a less "bright" tasting beer.

I do.

I use phosphate to bring my sparge water to 5.5.

Notes from my last brew session:
Mash ph ranging from 5.35 - 5.45
Final mash ph 5.4
Kettle ph 5.42
Pre-Fermentation ph 5.15

We'll see how this finishes after fermentation.

 

[Colbizle]

I emailed Sean Lawson a while back, and he keeps his mash pH around 5.4-5.6 (room temp) for everything he does. His beers are pretty amazing. I usually target around 5.4, and acidify my sparge to 5.5. I know lower pH can typically produce "brighter" flavors, but I think there might be a trade off regarding mouthfeel. Plus, the Pales and IPAs I've been making lately don't lack in the "bright" department.

I think flavor enhancement is really in the finished pH of your beer, and starting out at a certain point in your mash can certainly influence that, as well as the strain of yeast from what I've read, and I'm really staring to buy into the idea of saturating your wort with hops via steeping can help with that mouthfeel that we're all after.

"I did some research and experimentation with this last summer while working on my book. I think the desired target range is 4.1 to 4.5, with the tradeoff being between flavor and stability. The higher the pH, the better the flavor. The lower the pH, the better the (microbial) stability. Above 4.5, you start to get into food safety issues (i.e., stuff can grow in it). Lowering the pH does make the beer seem thinner, and eventually starts getting tart. I only used phosphoric acid (it's an ingredient in soft drinks as a flavor enhancer).

When the pH of beer is above 4.6 or so, it does have a bland taste, sort of like underseasoned (undersalted) food. Adding phosphoric acid did improve the flavor, to a point. Like salting food, there is an optimal point and it's somewhat subjective. Going too far means you start tasting the flavor enhancer and not the enhanced flavor. The flavor impact was different based on the serving temperature as well. Measuring at room temperature and then tasting at the colder serving temperature can result in over-adjusted beer. The desired final pH is also affected by the flavor profile (beer style) of the subject beer; there isn't one magic pH where all beers taste best.

I did find that finished beer did buffer pH change quite a bit. Certainly more so than RO water. Another way of illustrating that adding acids to adjust pH is not something with an easy linear formula. You have to add and test carefully, at least until you've neutralized the buffer and start moving the pH."

- Gordon strong

Taken from:
http://discussions.probrewer.com/sh...pH-at-different-points-in-the-brewing-process

 

[Colbizle]

Interestingly this thread makes me want to brew my first "low-mineral" brew.
All of my previous beers had a really rough bitterness.
My water contains (in ppm) 90 Ca, 50 Mg, 50 SO4, 10 Cl, 460 (!) HCO3 by default.
Despite this i always added some gypsum to get up to 300ish ppm in SO4.
I add then some phosporic acid to get down the mash to 5.4ish ph.

Now during the boil my boil-off rate is around 33%. So i think in the finished beer i end up with 300 Ca, 75 Mg, 450 So4, 15 Cl.

Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic?

I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph.

50 So4 and 10 CL probably would produce a fine hoppy beer if you want to try not adding anything other than simply phosphoric acid to bring your mash ph down to a PH of 5.4.

FWIW, I brewed a double IPA that took 3rd place in the IIPA category in the minnesota mash out this year with zero water additions and target mash ph of 5.4. I have fairly low mineralized soft water.

"Should i forget about the sulfate addition and try to lower my boil off rate while trying some out some of the other tips in the topic? I am even thinking about trying out DME to avoid most of the mash problems but then i am not sure about how to set the water ph"

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, I usually just collect enough of wort to accommodate my boil off rate. I use beersmith which has served me well, Sounds like you have some boil off and efficiency issues. You may want to start a new thread and maybe we can help you nail down your issue there.

Cheers!

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Hey all,

I'm using Wyeast 1318 for the first time after reading this thread. I usually use Conan for my DIPA's but thought I'd give 1318 a try on a recipe that I've done multiple times. My question is about dry hopping when using 1318. This strain is a true Top Cropper! After one week There is still a thick, 3 inch krausen on top with no signs of dropping. What do you guys do? Cold crash, rack first, or just throw the dry hops right on top?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Callacave]

Hey all,

I'm using Wyeast 1318 for the first time after reading this thread. I usually use Conan for my DIPA's but thought I'd give 1318 a try on a recipe that I've done multiple times. My question is about dry hopping when using 1318. This strain is a true Top Cropper! After one week There is still a thick, 3 inch krausen on top with no signs of dropping. What do you guys do? Cold crash, rack first, or just throw the dry hops right on top?

Thanks,
Mike

Yeah, that sucker loves to stick around forever. 1318 always seems to ferment quickly for the first couple of days, then take its sweet time till it's finally done on the second week.

I usually just gently push krausen aside and drop the hops right in, giving them a gentle stir to get them wet.

 

[Colbizle]

Yeah, that sucker loves to stick around forever. 1318 always seems to ferment quickly for the first couple of days, then take its sweet time till it's finally done on the second week.

I usually just gently push krausen aside and drop the hops right in, giving them a gentle stir to get them wet.

My experience has been the same. I also top crop the yeast, its so much easier and cleaner then trying to wash it.

 

[Callacave]

So just got back from our trip to VT to visit family. Grabbed a handful of growlers and bottles from Hill Farmstead, as well as some pints of HF at some local establishments.

I'm not through all of my growlers yet, and will be giving some to friends, but I think we're definitely on the right track flavor/aroma/mouthfeel wise with this discussion. I just poured my Nelson/Simcoe IPA after having a Legitimacy from HF, and the mouthfeel is definitely very similar. HF brews are super cloudy from being saturated with hop oils, and I'm getting the same from my beers.

Like I said previously I will go a little softer on the water profile for my next brew just to see the outcome, but it feels great to be nailing this one, and getting extremely close to what HF is producing!!

Don't be afraid to throw a serious amount of hops after the boil, and steep for a good chunk of time, along with a decent amount of chloride and a lower than you would expect level of sulfate. No need to go above 175. It'll just dry out the beer, and suck out that full/airy/pillowy mouthfeel we're all after.