Accidently pitched 2 yeasts into fermenter

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I was having a normal brew day but using my upgraded HERMS system for the first time. (Alt-bier) I had an equipment failure that was stessfull, right when I needed to chill. I got the wort chilled to 58 degrees but in the jury rigging confusion, I pitched two different yeasts into the same fermenter.
The yeasts were Wyeast 1007 that I made a starter (German Ale) and Diamond lager, that was saved. Since I had used my yeasts, I then had to grab some saved Nottingham for the other carboy. Both fermenters have 5.5 gallons of wort.
Both of them have overlapping temperature ranges. I'm shooting for about 58 degrees.

Questions: What happens with two different yeasts? Do they compete and one wins?

I'm probably way overpitched but maybe not too seriously considering that both of my yeasts were on the low end of good according to Mr. Malty.

 

[kh54s10]

One yeast will probably dominate. But I would expect something from each. My guess is that the ale yeast will dominate since ale yeasts are usually faster fermenters than lager yeasts.

You could have siphoned the two fermenters round and round from one to a pot to the other fermenter until you thought all was mixed evenly. But I guess pitching the Nottingham was a lot easier.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Thanks. I thought of mixing the fermenters but I've good good luck with Notty in a lot of different beers and didn't want a ten gallon disaster instead of a five. This should be an interesting experiment.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I just did a similar thing with a Tripel, I pitched one yeast then when it hadn't taken off 24 hours later I panicked and threw in part of a starter of another yeast. In my case, the first yeast was 3787 Trappist high gravity, the second was 2565 Kölsch. It took off like a rocket for two days at 65, then when it slowed I cranked the heat up to 75 for a few days, hoping to boost the trappist character.

The biggest problem with pitching two yeasts is that the outcome is neither predictable nor repeatable; though I've read that most dry yeasts are actually blends of multiple strains and that doesn't seem to present any problems.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The yeasts were Wyeast 1007 that I made a starter (German Ale) and Diamond lager, that was saved. Since I had used my yeasts, I then had to grab some saved Nottingham for the other carboy. Both fermenters have 5.5 gallons of wort.
Both of them have overlapping temperature ranges. I'm shooting for about 58 degrees.

Questions: What happens with two different yeasts? Do they compete and one wins?

That Nottingham you added to the other carboy...is a blend. Seems to be ~70% of a "lager" yeast, which one might guess could be Diamond, and 30% ale yeast. Before the 20th century, all brewing was done with blends of yeast, even today some British family brewers are using 12+ strains.

So there's no big deal in principle in mixing yeasts. In theory, if they both have similar vigour then if equal numbers are pitched then you'll get half the flavours you'd expect from one of them fermenting a full batch, and half the flavours from the other one if it was given a full batch on its own. But in practice, they have different vigour, and you can get weird synergies from the two acting together (eg biotransformation, where one makes different flavours using compounds made by the other yeast) and if one is flocculant and the other not, the two of them can co-flocculate.

But broadly - you've got nothing to worry about, especially since you've got cleanish yeasts being fermented cool.

 

[Steveruch]

[QUOTE="Jayjay1976, post: 8256619, member: 230769")
The biggest problem with pitching two yeasts is that the outcome is neither predictable nor repeatable; though I've read that most dry yeasts are actually blends of multiple strains and that doesn't seem to present any problems.[/QUOTE]


Where did you read that? This is the first time I've heard that.

 

[Jayjay1976]

[QUOTE="Jayjay1976, post: 8256619, member: 230769")
The biggest problem with pitching two yeasts is that the outcome is neither predictable nor repeatable; though I've read that most dry yeasts are actually blends of multiple strains and that doesn't seem to present any problems.

Where did you read that? This is the first time I've heard that.[/QUOTE]

See post #5 above, I've come across this info a few times. It could be that a lot of liquid yeasts are blends as well, especially those that are "house strains" bred from samples taken at European breweries.

 

[schematix]

How many beers deep were you?

 

[Duffman870727]

The results of co-pitching yeast is very variable. In your case, two similar yeasts that tolerate cold well and ferment clean will cohabitate nicely together in the approximate ratio that they were pitched into the beer. If you were to harvest the slurry and re-pitch over several generations... one strain will likely start to become dominant over the other. A typical ale strain pitched with a lager strain at cold temps would probably get out-competed in the first ferment, any lager strain will be perfectly happy at ale temps on the other hand. Last fall I made a NEIPA with a 50/50 co-pitch of a belgian yeast and lager yeast fermented at 65F. I got a good fruity character with minimal phenolics, very well suited to the beer style. It was for a project at school (Niagara College Brewmaster program).

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

That Nottingham you added to the other carboy...is a blend. Seems to be ~70% of a "lager" yeast, which one might guess could be Diamond, and 30% ale yeast. Before the 20th century, all brewing was done with blends of yeast, even today some British family brewers are using 12+ strains.

So there's no big deal in principle in mixing yeasts. In theory, if they both have similar vigour then if equal numbers are pitched then you'll get half the flavours you'd expect from one of them fermenting a full batch, and half the flavours from the other one if it was given a full batch on its own. But in practice, they have different vigour, and you can get weird synergies from the two acting together (eg biotransformation, where one makes different flavours using compounds made by the other yeast) and if one is flocculant and the other not, the two of them can co-flocculate.

But broadly - you've got nothing to worry about, especially since you've got cleanish yeasts being fermented cool.

Thank you: Interesting. Two days into it, the ferment was good and vigorous, probably due to the overpitch. I'm more optimistic. Now- Since I have a German Ale yeast and a Lager yeast, do I do a diacetyl rest? My guess is yes, since the Lager yeast likes it and I'm already at the low end of the Ale yeast temp range.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

The results of co-pitching yeast is very variable. In your case, two similar yeasts that tolerate cold well and ferment clean will cohabitate nicely together in the approximate ratio that they were pitched into the beer. If you were to harvest the slurry and re-pitch over several generations... one strain will likely start to become dominant over the other. A typical ale strain pitched with a lager strain at cold temps would probably get out-competed in the first ferment, any lager strain will be perfectly happy at ale temps on the other hand. Last fall I made a NEIPA with a 50/50 co-pitch of a belgian yeast and lager yeast fermented at 65F. I got a good fruity character with minimal phenolics, very well suited to the beer style. It was for a project at school (Niagara College Brewmaster program).

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Thanks: I was going to throw away the yeast but maybe I will save some in case the beer exceeds expectations.

 

[Duffman870727]

Now- Since I have a German Ale yeast and a Lager yeast, do I do a diacetyl rest?

General guideline is at about 70% attenuation let the temp free-rise a few degrees until fermentation is complete, this helps the yeast clean up any diacetyl. This applies to all beer fermentations.

Thanks: I was going to throw away the yeast but maybe I will save some in case the beer exceeds expectations.

Yeah, why not? Commercially, White Labs sells their Cream Ale blend which is a lager and ale yeast together and I've quite liked it for a clean ferment with subtle fruitiness. They also offered one called "Best of Both Worlds" which was a blend of 001 and 002. What they found was that attenuation improved over 002 alone, while still retaining the flocculation characteristics of 002, which took the 001 cells down with it. Only real issue with blended yeast is the drift that will occur over multiple gens so the 6th ferment will not have the same characteristics as the first or second ferment. To maintain consistency long-term, you'd have to keep separate stock cultures of each strain, and blend your pitching ratio into each batch rather than using harvested slurry. I wouldn't hesitate to make at least one more batch with the harvested slurry, though, if you like the beer.

 

[corbmonster]

Your beer will be awesome, that's what's going to happen [emoji2]. Some yeast makers sell nixed coultures of lager and ale. I believe while labs sells a kolch yeast that is both ale and lager yeasts blended together. Some saison yeasts are blended coulters. Nothing new here. I bet you a 6 pack of your choice that that alt bier is going to be great. If I were you I would ferment on the cooler side. Maybe 58 degrees. But that's just me.

 

[corbmonster]

Thank you: Interesting. Two days into it, the ferment was good and vigorous, probably due to the overpitch. I'm more optimistic. Now- Since I have a German Ale yeast and a Lager yeast, do I do a diacetyl rest? My guess is yes, since the Lager yeast likes it and I'm already at the low end of the Ale yeast temp range.

Always a good practice to do a diacetle rest even if it isn't necessary.

 

[BowAholic]

I'm posting to see the results... nice name for a brewery BTW...

 

[Comfort_Zone]

It'll be fine.

 

[GREGORGREGOR]

.

 

[corbmonster]

How did the Brew turn out?

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I was having a normal brew day but using my upgraded HERMS system for the first time. (Alt-bier) I had an equipment failure that was stessfull, right when I needed to chill. I got the wort chilled to 58 degrees but in the jury rigging confusion, I pitched two different yeasts into the same fermenter.
The yeasts were Wyeast 1007 that I made a starter (German Ale) and Diamond lager, that was saved. Since I had used my yeasts, I then had to grab some saved Nottingham for the other carboy. Both fermenters have 5.5 gallons of wort.
Both of them have overlapping temperature ranges. I'm shooting for about 58 degrees.

Questions: What happens with two different yeasts? Do they compete and one wins?

I'm probably way overpitched but maybe not too seriously considering that both of my yeasts were on the low end of good according to Mr. Malty.

To update my own post. The carboy with the mixed yeasts was delicious and matched the style in the BJCP perfectly. The other one was OK but didn't have that bready, malty upfront taste of an Alt Beer. Bobcat

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

How did the Brew turn out?

The mixed yeast was great and exactly to style. The Nottingham batch was OK but didn't really taste like Alt Beer.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

I was having a normal brew day but using my upgraded HERMS system for the first time. (Alt-bier) I had an equipment failure that was stessfull, right when I needed to chill. I got the wort chilled to 58 degrees but in the jury rigging confusion, I pitched two different yeasts into the same fermenter.
The yeasts were Wyeast 1007 that I made a starter (German Ale) and Diamond lager, that was saved. Since I had used my yeasts, I then had to grab some saved Nottingham for the other carboy. Both fermenters have 5.5 gallons of wort.
Both of them have overlapping temperature ranges. I'm shooting for about 58 degrees.

Questions: What happens with two different yeasts? Do they compete and one wins?

I'm probably way overpitched but maybe not too seriously considering that both of my yeasts were on the low end of good according to Mr. Malty.

As a followup. The alt bier with the two yeasts was excellent and dead on the style. The Nottingham keg was OK but didn't really express the maltiness spelled out in the Alt-Bier style. I have no idea which yeast dominated but I'll remember for future reference. I did NOT save the two yeasts. It seems to weird.

 

[Bobcatbrewing42]

Your beer will be awesome, that's what's going to happen [emoji2]. Some yeast makers sell nixed coultures of lager and ale. I believe while labs sells a kolch yeast that is both ale and lager yeasts blended together. Some saison yeasts are blended coulters. Nothing new here. I bet you a 6 pack of your choice that that alt bier is going to be great. If I were you I would ferment on the cooler side. Maybe 58 degrees. But that's just me.

You were right. The mix was awesome. The keg with Notty was so-so and not really to the alt-bier style.