A little stressed about my starter

[eadavis80]

Been making starters for several months now. Never really had an issue. I don't have a stir plate. Last few starters I've made with harvested yeast. Results have been solid. However, normally when I make a starter (I use 650 ML water and 1/2 cup DME) if I make the starter in the afternoon, when I waked up in the morning and give the flask a swirl, I'll have a LOT of foam in the flask (like mostly filling the flask). I'm not sure if that's a sign of fermentation/healthy starter or not, but it's been my "norm" and my results have been good, so I'm a little concerned about this current starter. I've attached 2 pics. One is what my starter looks like seconds after an aggressive swirl in the flask and the other is about 60 seconds later. Does this starter look okay? Is there any way to know if this starter is safe to use for tomorrow's brew day? The yeast is Wyeast 1098 by the way, which I've used for identical starters in the past. This yeast, however, is a little older. It was harvested in the first week in November. Maybe the age of the yeast has something to do with it?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Looks fine to me.

 

[ram5ey]

Isn't a 650ml starter a bit small? Foam and everything seems fine. FWIW foil on top of the flask IMHO is way easier and more sanitary.

 

[eadavis80]

Just following the instructions that come with the NB starter kit. They told me for beers 1.060 or less this is fine. When I get to 1.070 or higher, to make them with 1L and 2/3 cup of DME. Most of my beers are 4-6% ABV.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Mine do the same thing and I use an air lock. I almost always make a 2L starter in a gallon glass jug. It does seem like a small starter because typically people do 1L on a stir plate but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. I believe the foam is all the CO2 coming out of solution then all the bubbles pop and you're left with photo 2.

 

[b-boy]

You're fine.

As was mentioned above foil is definitely easier and more sanitary than foam.

 

[beernbourbon]

FWIW foil on top of the flask IMHO is way easier and more sanitary.

Help me understand this....not sure how loose (relatively....point is to allow air/oxygen in) foil is more sanitary than a foam stopper that I would HOPE has been sanitized prior to insertion. I use same foam stopper method, and find it quite simple: sanitized with everything else, and when ready to put on stir plate, pop it in, done. I'm sure there are benefits/downfalls to both, I just see creating a foil top to be a waste, as opposed to re-usable stopper.

to OP....looks fine. A lot of my starters, both original and harvested, have varying degrees of Krausen.....sometimes none at all, but usually my fermentations take off like crazy, some slower, but none have NOT taken off and not created beer.

 

[eadavis80]

Yes, the foam stopper, along with the flask is sanitized.

 

[m00ps]

give it time. Once of twice I've had starters that just lagged for some reason. even like 2 days beyond normal. Disrupted my brewing schedule, but better than pitching yeast that isnt ready to do the job. This happened once with a fresh vial and once with a decent amount of ranched yeast from the fridge

 

[kh54s10]

Foil or foam stoppers, either needs to be sanitized, to me there is little difference.

To one of the responses: Do not use an airlock, the yeast need oxygen to reproduce. You are not making beer, you are increasing the number of yeast cells. Using an airlock will limit cell reproduction.

 

[flars]

I think NBs' starter instructions are to generic, especially when it comes to the age/viability of the yeast and the estimated OG of the ale or lager.

I like these yeast pitch rate/starter calculators.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php

These sites have other useful information.

 

[eadavis80]

I guess this is where I'm confused on pitching calculators. I have no idea what my "slurry amount" or "slurry density" is. Here's what I can tell you I do, and see if you can give me some feedback. When I wash yeast, I pour a gallon of cooled, previously boiled water, into my primary and swish it around. I then pour that liquid into a glass jar. I let that glass jar sit for 30 minutes. Once there are visible layers, I then pour off the "good stuff" (non trub) into 8 mason jars. I then let those settle for a while until I see the nice beige yeast settle to the bottom. What I then do is decant half of the liquid of each of those 8 jars and then end with 4 jars with twice the amount of yeast as each of the original 8. I then use one of those 4 jars to make my starter with 650 ML water and 1/2 cup of DME. I would assume, and have had good success in the past with this, that this is more than enough healthy yeast to brew a 5-gallon batch at 1.060 OG or less. Looking forward to your feedback!

 

[ram5ey]

My only thing on foam stoppers is they cannot be sanitized if they become dirty. That's all I was saying.

 

[barnaclebob]

Does air really even enter the flask when the starter is fermenting? I don't see how it can if the yeast is producing co2.

 

[flars]

I guess this is where I'm confused on pitching calculators. I have no idea what my "slurry amount" or "slurry density" is. Here's what I can tell you I do, and see if you can give me some feedback. When I wash yeast, I pour a gallon of cooled, previously boiled water, into my primary and swish it around. I then pour that liquid into a glass jar. I let that glass jar sit for 30 minutes. Once there are visible layers, I then pour off the "good stuff" (non trub) into 8 mason jars. I then let those settle for a while until I see the nice beige yeast settle to the bottom. What I then do is decant half of the liquid of each of those 8 jars and then end with 4 jars with twice the amount of yeast as each of the original 8. I then use one of those 4 jars to make my starter with 650 ML water and 1/2 cup of DME. I would assume, and have had good success in the past with this, that this is more than enough healthy yeast to brew a 5-gallon batch at 1.060 OG or less. Looking forward to your feedback!

I have been estimating 1 billion cells per milliliter for the slurry I harvest. This is conservative, could possibly go 2 billion with my harvest method. I don't do any rinsing. I filter most of the hop debris from the wort when pouring into the fermentor. The slurry I save will have a little hop debris and some grain particles.

I leave enough beer in the fermentor to just cover the yeast. The beer and yeast is swirled together,after a few minutes of settling with the carboy on its side, I pour out one full quart mason jar.

For example: I have 375 ml of almost pure WY3711 which was harvested on 9/7/2014. (Quart jars have rough ounce and ml markings.) This volume is the norm for a 5 gallon brew after compacting.

Much of the information I base my yeast cell estimates on is from Woodland Brewing and various other sources.
http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/yeast-washing-revisited.html

The volume of yeast, that is in unmarked jars, can be roughly estimated by filling another jar to the same level with water, as the yeast, and then measuring the volume of water.

I'll then use the Brewers Friend starter and pitch rate calculator to estimate viability and starter size.

 

[winvarin]

Does air really even enter the flask when the starter is fermenting? I don't see how it can if the yeast is producing co2.

To some extent, I think, yes. I'm sure someone with a greater grasp of physics will shoot holes in my logic.

But my understanding has always been that the constant vortex created by a stir plate, or the intermittent sloshing caused by shaking or swirling, creates a lower air pressure inside the flask than outside, drawing air in.

A sanitized foam stopper, or my method of choice, a loose, sanitized piece of foil, allows air to flow in while keeping large particles like dust out.

I just form a piece of sanitized foil over the neck of my flask, then loosen it enough so that it still covers the opening and top 2-3 inches of the flask's neck, but wiggles loosely and allows and exchange of air.

 

[eadavis80]

So, if in my mason jar I can clearly see beige yeast that has settled at the bottom of the mason jar and that is at the 25 ML mark, I have about 25 billion yeast cells?! In a WYeast Smack Pack there are 100 billion, right? Now you've got me thinking I seriously underpitched, but I've done this method for 3 straight brews with fine results.

 

[noblesquirrel]

For the record, sanitized foil is absolutely fine. As long as it's sanitized. wild yeast/bacteria don't creep and crawl into fermenters. Insects, however, can and will get in at some point if you're not careful. Pasteur did an experiment with a bottle that showed that bacteria/yeast aren't interested in working their way into something: http://www.pasteurbrewing.com/pasteur-experiment-swan-neck-flask.html

 

[eadavis80]

Well, NB's Caribou Slobber is now bubbling away, 18 hours after pitching, so I guess I must have given my yeast a happy home. Guess my starter "method" is effective enough

 

[flars]

So, if in my mason jar I can clearly see beige yeast that has settled at the bottom of the mason jar and that is at the 25 ML mark, I have about 25 billion yeast cells?! In a WYeast Smack Pack there are 100 billion, right? Now you've got me thinking I seriously underpitched, but I've done this method for 3 straight brews with fine results.

You may be able to estimate greater than 1 billion cells per ml, with your method of rinsing yeast. Pitching fresh rinsed yeast, the way you have been, and not getting off flavors, you most likely have more than 1 billion cells per ml when the yeast layer is compacted. Mrmalty estimates up to 4.5 billion yeast cells per ml, selecting thick yeast and 0% non-yeast..