A few words of warning regarding the use of Ca(OH)2 (Calcium Hydroxide) in mash water or in the mash

[DuncB]

I don't use Bru n water so can't comment on the way to use it.
Treating 36 litres of sparge water but only using 19 will skew your projections I think.

 

[mac_1103]

Treating 36 litres of sparge water but only using 19 will skew your projections I think.

It shouldn't. The ion concentrations will be correct, unless you treat 19 liters of water with 36 liters worth of salt additions.

edit - OK I think I see your point now.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

@AdjunctBrewer I don't believe that to be accurate... User Custom is an entry I made for the NEIPA profile I am trying to achieve. The base water profile I am starting with is the row "Existing Water Profile" which is picked up from the Water Report Input tab.

Looking at it again you're probably right but I've been doing the opposite for years and still making good beer.

 

[tracer bullet]

I don't use Bru n water so can't comment on the way to use it.
Treating 36 litres of sparge water but only using 19 will skew your projections I think.

For mash, it may not, being for the sparge that comes later. For any predicted "final" numbers, i.e. for the wort after boiling and eventually into the beer, I'd agree it seems that it certainly would.

I've still got a little lime in a jar, but I put some red electrical tape around it to remind myself what it is and to be careful with it. I've since begun using baking soda and don't think I've had any adverse effects.

I say I don't think so because when you're the one who drinks your beer you really can't be certain if it wouldn't be better.

 

[marc1]

Hmmmm...
What brand and model meter do you have? When you measure the calibration solutions after calibration is done, do they read as they should?
What are the specific calibration solutions you are using? Name and brand?

If everything is as you say it is, this does not seem possible, so I'd guess that it is likely that something is misidentified or mismeasured. We just have to figure out where the disconnect is.

 

[marc1]

Can you conduct a small mash in a thermos or something? Maybe 0.5kg of one crushed base grain and an appropriate amount of water. No salts or adjustments to the water. Then calibrate and check your meter with the calibration solutions, then test the mash pH over an hour or so.

 

[DuncB]

Using your grain bill and your base water profile and target water profile.
Adjusted for additions in mash and sparge I get the following in brewfather.

I would fully expect with these calculations that my pH would be within 0.1 when measured. Normally the calculations / predicted are spot on with my measurement.
So either there is extra acid getting into the mash or the pH meter is reading wrong.
What is the final pH of the beer?
If the wort was very alkali ( mistakenly) I'm not so sure how well it would ferment.
Taste would certainly be odd with high pH.
I remain puzzled and await the missing piece.

 

[Yooper]

Why is there lime and baking soda in the sparge in the above screen shot? NEVER put alkalinity in the sparge. That’s the first thing I see there.

And in the mash, baking soda and lime added and then acid to fix the pH from the addition of baking soda and lime. That’s the oddest thing- add alkalinity and then add acid to remove it? Take both out.

Generally, no one needs to add alkalinity the the mash unless making a very dark roasted beer with water with low alkalinity.

And no one ever should add alkalinity to the sparge.

I didn’t see the original recipe and water, but this screenshot doesn’t make any sense.

 

[DuncB]

@Yooper @mac_1103
I agree it doesn't make any sense.
It would not be my salts plan at all for this brew of the Op.
I just put the salts water and grain used by the op into a format I'm more familiar with and perhaps others( brewfather) and I cannot see how the op gets such a low mash pH.
It is best to read the thread from the start rather than diving in at the deep end and finding out you are swimming in acid or alkali water.
Your help and input is welcome in the puzzle.

 

[mac_1103]

It would not be my salts plan at all for this brew of the Op.
I just put the salts water and grain used by the op into a format I'm more familiar with and perhaps others( brewfather) and I cannot see how the op gets such a low mash pH.

I assume you mean @sarandos25 and not the actual OP of the thread. 'Cuz that guy knows his water chemistry.

 

[sarandos25]

All - This Saturday I will calibrate the pH meter, take pictures of all of that, and then run the test with 500gr of Weyermann pale ale and 1.5 liters of water with no additions and record the observed pH for an hour of mash. I'll upload pictures. I'll try to get a backup pH meter. Thank you all!

 

[MaxStout]

1. Could you please let me know if there is a way to test the slaked lime potency to determine if it has degraded?

Put a pinch of it into a glass of water, stir. If it's still calcium hydroxide it should dissolve. If it's partially or fully turned to calcium carbonate, the CaCO3 won't dissolve and you'll see it in the bottom of the glass.

Calcium hydroxide is only moderately soluble in water, but calcium carbonate is much less soluble.

 

[Peebee]

I've got me eye on the outcome of this one! But unusually for this thread I'm very much in @sarandos25's camp! Not providing anything in proven answers but looking to glean any answers instead.

@sarandos25 isn't dreaming. I regularly record a Mash pH of under 5.0. I do use calcium hydroxide (Lime), but not in the quantities @sarandos25 uses ... that's actually heartening that I wouldn't be over-the-top putting that much in (I'll try and overcome my reluctance to add so much next time). Being a Brit I'm preferring "traditional" highly mineralised brewing water ... i.e. loads of acidity inducing Calcium salts.

... 'Cuz that guy knows his water chemistry.

He (@Silver_Is_Money) certainly does, and I have the greatest respect for him. But a question came to my head reading this thread - my tap water is acid moorland run-off. It must be dosed to get the alkalinity up or the pipes rot (they are always busting as it is!). It reaches my tap as about 7-8ppm as CaCO3, but leaves the water treatment works at 21ppm as CaCO3 (I've never properly understood why it drops like that ... and it's not just happening to me!). That's (21x1.22) ppm as HCO3 (26ppm). And I'm using Lime! But I'm not to mix Lime with HCO3? Damn! Ah, but hang-on, the reported HCO3 is only an equivalent and mostly from dosing at the treatment works ... with Lime! So, I shouldn't use Sodium Bicarbonate either? Arrgh! @Silver_Is_Money ... hheeellp!

Anyway, that's digressing. What I've been proposing (to myself) is splitting the salt additions 'tween mash and boil. All alkalinity (plus a scrap of Calcium to support conversion) in mash and all the rest of the salts (Gypsum, Epsom salts, Calcium Chloride, etc.) in the boil (or sparge). The low Calcium in the mash might stop the pH plummeting?

 

[DuncB]

I assume you mean @sarandos25 and not the actual OP of the thread. 'Cuz that guy knows his water chemistry.

AHH yes my bad. Lost in the mist of time.

 

[Peebee]

I spent ages setting this up as an example before homing-in on the probable suspect, and it wasn't what I'd hoped! With hindsight I should have noted @Yooper's post:

... And in the mash, baking soda and lime added and then acid to fix the pH from the addition of baking soda and lime. That’s the oddest thing- add alkalinity and then add acid to remove it? Take both out. ...

Oddly enough (even odder?) I was achieving this even with acid and alkalinity salts at the same time:

So you can over-ride the acid addition with enough Lime ... but it's not good practice (i.e. pointless?).

Note I'm using the "registered" version, Martin only asks for a token amount to register ... do it! (That might get me another "like" from Martin ). Actually ... I moan like mad about those red blotches (there goes me "like"! ).

Pay no heed to the "Additions" column in my illustration ... they've been "hacked" 'cos I was only working on the Mash additions.



Also: Bru'n Water is a calculator not a brewing simulator, so none of this need parallel @sarandos25's actual problem? (... Err, but you use Bru'n Water as a brewing simulator all the time ... Shutup you, they don't need to know that ... ).

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

I spent ages setting this up as an example before homing-in on the probable suspect, and it wasn't what I'd hoped! With hindsight I should have noted @Yooper's post:



Oddly enough (even odder?) I was achieving this even with acid and alkalinity salts at the same time:
View attachment 866309
So you can over-ride the acid addition with enough Lime ... but it's not good practice (i.e. pointless?).

Note I'm using the "registered" version, Martin only asks for a token amount to register ... do it! (That might get me another "like" from Martin ). Actually ... I moan like mad about those red blotches (there goes me "like"! ).

Pay no heed to the "Additions" column in my illustration ... they've been "hacked" 'cos I was only working on the Mash additions.



Also: Bru'n Water is a calculator not a brewing simulator, so none of this need parallel @sarandos25's actual problem? (... Err, but you use Bru'n Water as a brewing simulator all the time ... Shutup you, they don't need to know that ... ).

Why is it odd that an acid addition cancels an alkaline addition? If the appropriate ions are retained (by the calculator) (Ca, PO4, etc...) then does it matter? Though the additional Ca, etc.. might lower the pH further depending on how much you believe Kolbach. Same with the acid anion and phosphates interaction in the mash altering the pH (if using phosphoric acid). Mash Made Easy allows a custom Kolbach shift multiplier. Its unlikely that any mash pH calculator models thing to the extent I'm referring to here (maybe AJDelange's old spreadsheet).

 

[tracer bullet]

Why is it odd that an acid addition cancels an alkaline addition?

I won't speak for her, but I don't think think she's saying it's odd that it works, it's odd that one might do it.

You may add gypsum or calcium chloride for those particular things it brings - calcium, sulfates, whatever. Then if your pH will be high, you'd add acid. Or if your pH will be low, add baking soda or in this case the lime. But why one would add acid and lime both, that would be odd. Choose one or the other, depending which way you need to adjust predicted pH. But not both.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

I won't speak for her, but I don't think think she's saying it's odd that it works, it's odd that one might do it.

That's what Yooper is saying, and I agree, but I was referring to and quoted 'Peebee':

Oddly enough (even odder?) I was achieving this even with acid and alkalinity salts at the same time:

 

[tracer bullet]

That's what Yooper is saying, and I agree, but I was referring to and quoted 'Peebee':

Hmm, yeah, this is a "smack my forehead" moment and acknowledge maybe I should have fewer windows open at once.

 

[Peebee]

Why is it odd that an acid addition cancels an alkaline addition? ...

Nothing at all! It was mirroring @Yopper's comment. And Yopper wasn't referring to acid addition cancelling an alkaline addition being odd either!

The odd bit was making an acid addition to cancel an alkalinity addition when you needn't make the alkalinity addition in the first place. Sorry if I hadn't written it in a way to make that meaning more obvious (careful; if you build an anxiety complex in me, my scribblings might get even bigger! eek!).


My comments are words of caution! I suffer this "pH slide" which I believe (not proven) is due to my very low starting alkalinity and a preference for beers made with high levels of minerals in the brewing water (well, I'm British and have a taste for British "traditional" beers ... or "flat and warm" to the uninitiated!). Reading too much has instilled a dread of overusing alkalinity salts (bicarbonate, etc.). With the number of people using RO Water now, I predict a big surge of this "pH slide" phenomena if it suddenly became trendy to have highly mineralised water profiles (Calcium ion concentrations above 120mg/L). @sarandos25's experience I thought had crossed the line, but I was wrong.

Meanwhile, if anyone comes up with a better reason for the "pH slides" I suffer, I'm all ears!

 

[sarandos25]

@Yooper @Peebee I believe you missed that I stated I do NOT use both acid and alkaline additions on the same brew. The acid in the spreadsheet is a PLUG. The calculator, without the acid additions, states the pH should be ~5.45, but on brew day I kept getting 4.6 to 4.9, so I added the plug to figure out how much Slaked Lime I needed to fix the pH... but even after using slaked lime it hasn't worked. I am still planning on re-calibrating the pH meter and running the 500 gr experiment this weekend if not earlier.

<----PLUG

PS I recently got the paid version of the brun' but most of my recipes are still in the old one

 

[DuncB]

@sarandos25
I have noted that you built in the acid skew in the calculation to generate a projection pH close to your observed low pH mash value.
With a subsequent amount of CaOH to correct this figure.
As mentioned in my earlier post your pH appears to need lowering with that grain bill and salts without CaOH.
The puzzle is where is so much acid getting into your mash or is the pH meter leading you astray.
Hopefully the mini mash and recalibration will reveal all.

 

[Peebee]

@Peebee I believe you missed that I stated I do NOT use both acid and alkaline additions on the same brew. ...

Sorree!

It was actually that the Lime wasn't there that I missed. I hadn't even registered the meaning of "plug". But whatever, I was still wrong!

I'm firmly back in your camp now, but none the wiser (no explanation for your slide in pH, and more doubt about my explanation of my slide in pH). I'll keep my eye on this thread for possible solutions to my "related" (?) issue. Meanwhile you might consider my** (as yet untested) solution to my plummeting pH: It uses the "Add Hardness Minerals to Kettle" option in Bru'n Water (which might be interpreted as "add to sparge") which makes the obvious "physical" difference, and also the less obvious "virtual" difference removes those compounds (which are displayed with an orange, not yellow, background) from where "less-than-perfect?" calculations takes place (the Mash) to somewhere safer (Sparge or Boil).

If you do use the "Add Hardness Minerals to Kettle" option, you will need to ensure there's enough Calcium left in the mash to maintain its attributed mash functions (such as "hardening the enzymes", and others?).

Might work? Just remember, it's speculative, I haven't tried it myself yet.

As previously, the values under "Addition" have been "hacked" because I'm only applying to the mash (illustrative only). And more than the displayed two decimal places will have been used to have the "Total Mineral Additions" correct. (Those statements are in case anyone is checking up on me!).


** Hardly "my" method, it's using a feature of Bru'n Water that's been available for eons.

[EDITED: For better clarity (gosh, my English is ropey at times!).]

 

[Yooper]

@Yooper @Peebee I believe you missed that I stated I do NOT use both acid and alkaline additions on the same brew. The acid in the spreadsheet is a PLUG. The calculator, without the acid additions, states the pH should be ~5.45, but on brew day I kept getting 4.6 to 4.9, so I added the plug to figure out how much Slaked Lime I needed to fix the pH... but even after using slaked lime it hasn't worked. I am still planning on re-calibrating the pH meter and running the 500 gr experiment this weekend if not earlier.

View attachment 866364 <----PLUG

PS I recently got the paid version of the brun' but most of my recipes are still in the old one

Gotcha- sorry about that!
I missed the recipe. Can you post the recipe (or PM it to me), and I'll run it through the software I use and see how close the predictions are. With the part of the recipe I saw, I don't see any need for alkalinity in the brewing water.

 

[DuncB]

I don't see any need for alkalinity in the brewing water.

Neither do I.

 

[MaxStout]

For me, only in certain UK dark beers. I brewed a porter a few weeks ago, added some baking soda to bump down pH and increase Na to 40 or 50 ppm for flavor. My room temp mash pH was 5.31, so within the range I wanted.

 

[DuncB]

@Yooper
Grain bill is in post 18 and 25.

Target water profile is in top line of bru n water designated user water profile.

Any acid additions are to " fake " the calculator to output the measured mash pH. Which is measured low.
With a correction using CaOH to try and bring this to a mash pH of 5.2.

 

[sarandos25]

OK... really excited to share the results; curious to see the reactions to them:

Test:
500gr Weyermann Pale Ale
1.5 liters of source tap water
0 salt additions

pH Calibration

Additional visual validation:
Pale ale

Mashed at 67 C for 60 Minutes

Now the interesting things:

Mash pH 20' measured at 25 C

Mash pH 30' measured at 25 C

Mash pH 45' measured at 25 C

Mash pH 60' measured at 25 C

Based on the calc the pH should be clocking in at 5.7...

Help please!!

 

[mac_1103]

I'm no expert, but ISTM that your water report has to be wrong.

 

[mac_1103]

BTW you did crush the grain, right?