A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[syrinx]

Hello, can I ask you an advice for our Lager (Saaz)?

Which water profile do you advise me to use? I was with Lactic acid + Gypsum OR Gypsum only. Now, I'm with only Phosphoric acid addition and I think it's less good (the taste of hops doesn't pop up).

I don't use RO water. My water profile is attached without treatment and before heating.

Thank you very much.

 

[copper2hopper]

I just got this from my water department today. Very nice of them to have on hand and provide a timely response. Is this good stuff to brew with?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Add about 6.5 mL of 85% phosphoric acid to every 5 gallons of it (both mash and sparge) and it will be a good basis of water to brew with. Cut the 85% Phosphoric addition to about 4.2 mL for every 5 gallons of specifically mash water only if you are brewing the likes of robust Porters or Stouts. Always add the full 6.5 mL to all sparge water.

 

[copper2hopper]

Add about 6.5 mL of 85% phosphoric acid to every 5 gallons of it and it will be a good basis of water to brew with. Cut the 85% Phosphoric addition to about 4.2 mL for every 5 gallons if you are brewing Porters or Stouts.

Thank you. Where can I get that kinda stuff. My preliminary searches is only finding me 10% solutions

 

[FrostyBeach]

I buy food grade phosphoric acid from: https://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=FGphos
Use care in handling it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would presume that this water also contains chlorine and/or chloramines. Also add 1/4 of a crushed Campden tablet to every 5 gallons to eliminate these anti-bacterial kill agents. This works almost instantaneously.

As stated above, many of us use Duda Diesel 85% Phosphoric Acid. You can purchase it on Amazon.com. Wear necessary PPE such as goggles, apron, rubber gloves, and even a face shield when using it. Dispense measured volumes with an appropriately sized plastic syringe.

 

[copper2hopper]

Thanks fellas.

 

[copper2hopper]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

If you're taste buds are sensitive enough, you might taste Lactic Acid.
For 88% Lactic Acid it's 8.3 mL per 5 gallons, or 5.5 mL per 5 gallons for Porters and Stouts (with 8.3 mL per 5 gallons for all sparge water).

Phosphoric Acid is far more tasteless.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

That's because the 950 mL size is not currently available on Amazon.com, where you get the free shipping deal.

 

[copper2hopper]

Found this... I-MAX Phosphoric Acid 85% Food Grade, Rust Remover, pH Down - 1 US Quart, HIGH Purity https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H4K181M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_B0EqEbFZFDB8K

That work?

 

[mabrungard]

Found this... I-MAX Phosphoric Acid 85% Food Grade, Rust Remover, pH Down - 1 US Quart, HIGH Purity https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H4K181M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_B0EqEbFZFDB8K

That work?

Sure, if you don’t value the health of yourself and your friends. Use only food-grade (or reagent grade in a pinch) for safety. High purity doesn’t mean much.

 

[copper2hopper]

Ok then the stuff from dudadiesel it is then since that’s better? I figured “food grade” woulda been ok with that.

 

[copper2hopper]

dudadiesel brand phos bought. Thanks for the feedback guys and heads up on NOT getting that amazon stuff mabrungard.

 

[mabrungard]

You never know what’s in that stuff and it has huge ability to dissolve all kinds of nasties.

 

[cheesebach]

You never know what’s in that stuff and it has huge ability to dissolve all kinds of nasties.

Trying to understand what is the difference that makes the duda diesal phosphoric "safe" and the other from the Amazon link "unsafe" - Is it that the supplier of the latter product is not reputable, so while it claims to be "food grade" it may not actually be? Or is there some other certification/designation (aside from "food grade") that the duda diesel product comes with that the one from amazon doesn't have? If we don't trust that a product sold as "food grade" actually meets "food grade" standards, do we have any assurance that the product sold by duda diesel is actually "food grade"?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Trying to understand what is the difference that makes the duda diesal phosphoric "safe" and the other from the Amazon link "unsafe" - Is it that the supplier of the latter product is not reputable, so while it claims to be "food grade" it may not actually be? Or is there some other certification/designation (aside from "food grade") that the duda diesel product comes with that the one from amazon doesn't have? If we don't trust that a product sold as "food grade" actually meets "food grade" standards, do we have any assurance that the product sold by duda diesel is actually "food grade"?

Duda Diesel gives out certificates of analysis upon request.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I just finished reading the entire thread. Wow! Such incredible generosity and incredible patience by @ajdelange! The amount of time he took to explain the primer so thoroughly, as well as the number of times he had to repeat himself to those not taking the time to read the thread is truly astounding. Thank you! This approach to brewing is a godsend, especially to those with difficult source water.

It's unfortunate that the first post could not be edited, as many of the repeat questions had to do with a revision of this post. For those of you just coming to this thread, I have extracted the key portion from the first post and edited it (bolded text) to the way I think @ajdelange intended. Please correct me if I'm wrong:


Baseline: Add 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use 1/4 tsp of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Use 1/2 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum (i.e. 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gypsum).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

For British beers: Use 1/2 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum (i.e. 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gypsum).

BTW, I should add that I'm not clear about the "minerally" beers. He says to "double" the calcium chloride and gypsum, but since gypsum is not included in the "baseline", then I assume he must be referring to doubling the previous line, where gypsum IS used. Hopefully someone can clarify this.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

There is an article in BYO that is not available anymore for non subscribers. They analysed the water profile of finished popular beers including a tree house and also analyse the water of a beer brewed by the author Michael Tonsmeire I believe.
Grains give sulfate and more chloride

Do you recall what issue that was, @beervoid, or even the approximate year?

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Do you recall what issue that was, @beervoid, or even the approximate year?

I think I found it. Was it "Mineral Profile in the Glass: How Water Minerals Change Through Brewing"? BYO, September, 2017.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

BTW, I should add that I'm not clear about the "minerally" beers. He says to "double" the calcium chloride and gypsum, but since gypsum is not included in the "baseline", then I assume he must be referring to doubling the previous line, where gypsum IS used. Hopefully someone can clarify this.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-1/
See if this link helps.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-1/
See if this link helps.

Hi Brewbuzzrd. Thanks for the link. However, I feel that I'm already fairly knowledgeable about brewing water basics, and was instead particularly asking about what A.J. deLange meant in the first message of this thread ("Primer") as modified by his later comments, particularly regarding "minerally" beers.

He provided a baseline, and said that the subsequent types of beers were to be "deviated" by the amounts he suggested. The only type of beer that didn't make any sense regarding "deviation" is the last one - "minerally beers". He said that the chloride and gypsum were to be doubled. Since no gypsum is added to the baseline beers, how can you "double" the amount? Thus, I assumed he was actually not referring to the "baseline" beer in this particular case, but rather to the previous type of beer (British beers), where gypsum IS mentioned. This makes sense since a more minerally type of beer would certainly be more than the previous type of beer by about that amount.

I just asked for clarification, which likely only A.J. deLange can himself provide. (There was a comment during the discussion that he made, which seems to generally confirm my interpretation, although not specifically).

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough before.

 

[ledub.2.78]

Hefeweizen: Baseline

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:


Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.



If you follow just the baseline without any of the deviations you won't make a 'dumper'. That's the whole idea behind the primer. Should get you a decent beer whatever the style.

Soooo, in a pinch for the baseline, if you have Phosphoric acid instead of saurmaltz at 10% solution how would you recommend a substitute? assuming R/O water.

 

[brian320fo]

Hi,

I have been developing a new water calculator (oh no, not ANOTHER one......!). With some input it calculates a good water profile for most styles of beer. It also calculates acid or alkalinity additions, salt additions and target pH. If interested it's located here:

https://watercalc.azurewebsites.net/

 

[bleme]

Hi,

I have been developing a new water calculator (oh no, not ANOTHER one......!). With some input it calculates a good water profile for most styles of beer. It also calculates acid or alkalinity additions, salt additions and target pH. If interested it's located here:

https://watercalc.azurewebsites.net/

I wish I had seen this last weekend...

 

[Broothru]

Hi,

I have been developing a new water calculator (oh no, not ANOTHER one......!). With some input it calculates a good water profile for most styles of beer. It also calculates acid or alkalinity additions, salt additions and target pH. If interested it's located here:

https://watercalc.azurewebsites.net/

Hey Brian,

Used the calc and found it to be very user friendly. Good work.

Brooo Brother

BTW - Is that you on the 'boom or in the KC? Never yanked gear on the 320 but did fly from the left side for 8 years. Lots of good times.

 

[brian320fo]

Hey Brian,

Used the calc and found it to be very user friendly. Good work.

Brooo Brother

BTW - Is that you on the 'boom or in the KC? Never yanked gear on the 320 but did fly from the left side for 8 years. Lots of good times.

I took the picture. That's my wingman on the boom.

 

[brian320fo]

I wish I had seen this last weekend...

I you do get a chance to use it let me know what you think! Thanks.

 

[brian320fo]

Hey Brian,

Used the calc and found it to be very user friendly. Good work.

Brooo Brother

BTW - Is that you on the 'boom or in the KC? Never yanked gear on the 320 but did fly from the left side for 8 years. Lots of good times.

BTW, if you do use the calculator, any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!