A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[jwalk4]

If your water meets those guidelines, then yes.

Got it.

 

[MandySwift]

I'v tried my very first time brewing by complying with the water chemistry in this sect and result goes well as a beginner.

 

[phishie]

Please let me know if this is the wrong place to ask for help.

Could use a some advice with the Czech Pils recipe I'm trying to craft.

The grain bill is 87% (or 85%) Bohemian Pilsner malt, 10% Carapils, and 3% (or 5%) Acidulated malt.

Will be doing a full volume BIAB mash, possibly 2 or 3 step decoction.

Water will be 100% distilled + the following water additions in grams/gallon to hit a "Pilsner style soft" profile:

• 0.05g Epsom salt, 0.0175g Table salt, 0.0175g Calcium chloride, and 0.04g Slaked Lime

When plugging these details into the Brewer's Friend Water Calculator it gives me a mash PH of 5.45 (or 5.21).

Plugging the same details into Bru'n Water gives me a mash PH of 5.6 (or 5.5).

Based on it's extensive use I'm going to trust Bru'n Water a bit more, but I'm still surprised by the big difference in estimated mash PH.

Also I'm generally surprised I need to up my acidulated malt to almost 5% to get a 5.2 mash PH (according to Brewer's Friend).

*update* Even when I up the acidulated malt to 5% Bru'n water still says my mash PH will only drop to 5.5. I think I must be doing something wrong with the spreadsheet. Full disclosure I'm planning a 4 gallon mash resulting in a 2.5 gallon batch size.

*update 2* I have to up the acidulated malt to 9.5% in Bru'n water to hit 5.2 mash PH. I also just noticed the text in the 0-Instructions tab which mentions a thin mash can lead to a higher than expected PH. That would make sense considering my full volume BIAB mash for this recipe would be at a 3+ qt/lb water to grist ratio.

I'm guessing that the Brewer's Friend Water Calculator doesn't take this into account and it might explain the difference in mash PH estimation b/w the two tools.

 

[MagicMatt]

Please let me know if this is the wrong place to ask for help.

Yes, ideally you should create your own thread for your own specific question. However, it's here already so I'll answer what I can. Others will likely be able to provide further detail.

When plugging these details into the Brewer's Friend Water Calculator it gives me a mash PH of 5.45 (or 5.21).

Plugging the same details into Bru'n Water gives me a mash PH of 5.6 (or 5.5).

Based on it's extensive use I'm going to trust Bru'n Water a bit more, but I'm still surprised by the big difference in estimated mash PH.

Also I'm generally surprised I need to up my acidulated malt to almost 5% to get a 5.2 mash PH (according to Brewer's Friend).

*update* Even when I up the acidulated malt to 5% Bru'n water still says my mash PH will only drop to 5.5. I think I must be doing something wrong with the spreadsheet. Full disclosure I'm planning a 4 gallon mash resulting in a 2.5 gallon batch size.

*update 2* I have to up the acidulated malt to 9.5% in Bru'n water to hit 5.2 mash PH. I also just noticed the text in the 0-Instructions tab which mentions a thin mash can lead to a higher than expected PH. That would make sense considering my full volume BIAB mash for this recipe would be at a 3+ qt/lb water to grist ratio.

I'm guessing that the Brewer's Friend Water Calculator doesn't take this into account and it might explain the difference in mash PH estimation b/w the two tools.

I find the exact opposite - that is, Brewer's Friend is always more accurate to my final data than Bru'n Water. I've put the same info into both calculators, and my measured numbers are usually dead-on accurate when comparing to Brewer's Friend. I've noticed Bru'n misses the mark high every time. I've since gone exclusively to Brewer's Friend. But many people still use Bru'n with desirable results.

Also, you keep mentioning 5.2 for the mash, but that has been proven to not be accurate for measuring. The only mash pH you need to concern yourself with is the reference pH (that is, of the room temp sample you measured). That should be in the 5.4 - 5.6 range depending on style. I'd say you want to aim for the lower end for a Pilsner.

All that said, yes your mash pH will be higher than expected since you are doing such a thin mash. Brewer's Friend does indeed account for this. I input your data into the calculator and got an expected pH of 5.7. This is partially because you're adding slaked lime to the mash, with raises the pH. You should remove this addition from the mash and add it once you begin to boil, since it's only being used for mineral content. Doing that, you only need to up the acid malt to 2.4oz (which is 3.2%) and the pH dropped to 5.41. This sounds like it would work for you. Here's a link:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=ZWQQ41X

 

[phishie]

Yes, ideally you should create your own thread for your own specific question. However, it's here already so I'll answer what I can. Others will likely be able to provide further detail.




I find the exact opposite - that is, Brewer's Friend is always more accurate to my final data than Bru'n Water. I've put the same info into both calculators, and my measured numbers are usually dead-on accurate when comparing to Brewer's Friend. I've noticed Bru'n misses the mark high every time. I've since gone exclusively to Brewer's Friend. But many people still use Bru'n with desirable results.

Also, you keep mentioning 5.2 for the mash, but that has been proven to not be accurate for measuring. The only mash pH you need to concern yourself with is the reference pH (that is, of the room temp sample you measured). That should be in the 5.4 - 5.6 range depending on style. I'd say you want to aim for the lower end for a Pilsner.

All that said, yes your mash pH will be higher than expected since you are doing such a thin mash. Brewer's Friend does indeed account for this. I input your data into the calculator and got an expected pH of 5.7. This is partially because you're adding slaked lime to the mash, with raises the pH. You should remove this addition from the mash and add it once you begin to boil, since it's only being used for mineral content. Doing that, you only need to up the acid malt to 2.4oz (which is 3.2%) and the pH dropped to 5.41. This sounds like it would work for you. Here's a link:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=ZWQQ41X

Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I kept reading that a Bohemian pilsner should have a mash PH of 5.2 but 5.4 does make more sense (in line with so many other beers).

I also just learned the PH of distilled water is closer to 6 than 7 (due to absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere), so thanks for that too!

 

[Finlandbrews]

I had created a thread where people could comment on water profiles from commercial waters but no one seems to react... When I was in Italy I had lots of different bottled water with important variation in their profiles and I was questioning myself everytime "how good this water would be for brewing compare to the other one, and why?"!

I have gotten a report from my water which comes from a lake here in Finland and I would like if some people can comment 1) why my water is good or bad for and 2) what should I consider adding/treating it with for Ipas and stouts ... My alkalinity is about 30 ppm for example and is ranging from about 15 ppm to 40 ppm. My sulfate is about 50 ppm. My calcium is 27 ppm. My chloride is 9.1 ppm. My sodium is 7.1 ppm. My magnesium is 1.8ppm. My chlorine is 0.48 ppm. My copper and zinc are respectively 0.3 parts per billion and 5 parts per billion.

Thank you in advance to the water chemistry experts!

 

[Finlandbrews]

This is the report, please see column 3. Any other things that are to pay an eye on when I get new reports in future?

View attachment 1448310783235.jpg

 

[TheMadKing]

A quick question.. If I add campden tablets and CaCl to the same batch, does the campden neutralize the chlorine and effectively drop it to zero?

 

[cowhide]

Just want to give a big THANK YOU to Aj, Yooper, Martin and everybody else on this board as I sit here with my first helles made following this primer.
I began brewing back in the early 80s and gave up when kids got in the way.
Started again a couple years ago when I found my old kegs in the garage (one was still full). I was about to give it up again because I couldn't make a decent beer. I have now read this thread twice and it has made a huge difference. It's only 1 batch but I am very confident there are many more to come
Again thank you all, Merry Christmas, and God bless.

 

[ajdelange]

This is the report, please see column 3. Any other things that are to pay an eye on when I get new reports in future?

Looks like good stuff to me. The low alkalinity (26 ppm) is a big plus. Very little acid (or sauermalz) will be needed for mash pH control in lighter beers and little if any base will be required for darker beers if some restraint is shown with the darker malts.

Sulfate is way too high for delicate lagers using noble hops and way too low for hop heavy British ales. 1:1 dilution with RO should cover the former case and supplementation with CaSO4 the latter.

 

[ajdelange]

A quick question.. If I add campden tablets and CaCl to the same batch, does the campden neutralize the chlorine and effectively drop it to zero?

Any chlorine dissolved in the water or chlorine in chloramine in the water: yes. These will be reduced to chloride ion. As the chloride ion in CaCl is already reduced (it is an ion) it will not be effected.

 

[Finlandbrews]

Looks like good stuff to me. The low alkalinity (26 ppm) is a big plus. Very little acid (or sauermalz) will be needed for mash pH control in lighter beers and little if any base will be required for darker beers if some restraint is shown with the darker malts.

Sulfate is way too high for delicate lagers using noble hops and way too low for hop heavy British ales. 1:1 dilution with RO should cover the former case and supplementation with CaSO4 the latter.

Thanks ajdelange. Just wondering how can you make such a quick estimation on the mash pH that will turn out based only on the alkalinity level? I m still confused about what to check in a water report to understand how a certain grain bill will be good or bad to reach target mash pH...

What is the difference between using acid malt compare to phosphoric acid? Does acid malt contribute any flavors? I have bought phosphoric acid to use but still have to figure out the doses...

When you say the sulfate level is too low, does it apply to all hop heavy styles, also Ipas? How does it play against the hop heavy beer styles? Thanks

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks ajdelange. Just wondering how can you make such a quick estimation on the mash pH that will turn out based only on the alkalinity level?

pH estimates are obtained by considering the alkalinity of the water and the individual malts. If you have data on a handful of malts it is quite easy to build a spreadsheet which permits one to make pH estimates. After playing with such a spreadsheet for a while one gains insight as to what swings mash pH and what doesn't. Water alkalinity is a big driver.

I m still confused about what to check in a water report to understand how a certain grain bill will be good or bad to reach target mash pH...

The water's alkalinity is the main driver (raises pH). Colored malts contribute negative alkalinity (acidity) and are the second biggest factor). Calcium content has a small effect and magnesium an even smaller one.

What is the difference between using acid malt compare to phosphoric acid?

With sauermalz the acid is lactic.

Does acid malt contribute any flavors?

Yes, the flavors of lactic acid and the flavors of the malt it has been sprayed on or on which it has been grown. Some people prefer it over phosphoric acid because they want those flavor (both acid and malt) and phosphoric acid is quite flavor neutral in comparison to lactic.

I have bought phosphoric acid to use but still have to figure out the doses...

That is easy enough to do based on the water alkalinity figure and the acid properties of the malts but as one seldom has accurate data especially on the latter it is, practically speaking, easier to make a small test mash and measure its pH for various levels of acid addition until the amount that gets mash pH correct is found.

Some brewers simply remove the alkalinity of the water by adding acid to it until the desired mash pH is reached and then treat the water as if it has 0 alkalinity.

When you say the sulfate level is too low, does it apply to all hop heavy styles, also Ipas? How does it play against the hop heavy beer styles?

The most important thing to understand about sulfate is that it is a personal taste. Many brewers (home and commercial) crave sulfate levels that exceed WHO recommendations for potable water. Others want as little sulfate as possible. You must find out where you fall on this scale. A good way to do that is to experiment with additions of gypsum in the glass to a moderately hopped beer.

 

[Finlandbrews]

pH estimates are obtained by considering the alkalinity of the water and the individual malts. If you have data on a handful of malts it is quite easy to build a spreadsheet which permits one to make pH estimates. After playing with such a spreadsheet for a while one gains insight as to what swings mash pH and what doesn't. Water alkalinity is a big driver.

The water's alkalinity is the main driver (raises pH). Colored malts contribute negative alkalinity (acidity) and are the second biggest factor). Calcium content has a small effect and magnesium an even smaller one.


With sauermalz the acid is lactic.

Yes, the flavors of lactic acid and the flavors of the malt it has been sprayed on or on which it has been grown. Some people prefer it over phosphoric acid because they want those flavor (both acid and malt) and phosphoric acid is quite flavor neutral in comparison to lactic.

That is easy enough to do based on the water alkalinity figure and the acid properties of the malts but as one seldom has accurate data especially on the latter it is, practically speaking, easier to make a small test mash and measure its pH for various levels of acid addition until the amount that gets mash pH correct is found.

Some brewers simply remove the alkalinity of the water by adding acid to it until the desired mash pH is reached and then treat the water as if it has 0 alkalinity.

The most important thing to understand about sulfate is that it is a personal taste. Many brewers (home and commercial) crave sulfate levels that exceed WHO recommendations for potable water. Others want as little sulfate as possible. You must find out where you fall on this scale. A good way to do that is to experiment with additions of gypsum in the glass to a moderately hopped beer.

Great tips and tricks! Thanks ajdelange. Adding a bit of gypsum in my next ipa is something I will try! Very curious... For the rest, practice and testing will make me understand the acidification potential of my grains based on my alkalinity. I will be brewing in two different locations...

 

[Finlandbrews]

Does the RO play a role on water pH? I'm brewing with RO water from the Baltic sea which sounds a bit crazy but interesting too on the other hand. I have got a report which doesn't indicate the most important brewing ions but I got to see the pH of the water is 8.9. That sounds crazy high to me. What is your opinion? Also one thing interesting is I have 110 ppm of Na (natrium, by the way is the same as sodium?) and 4 ppm of sulfates. Any comment on that?

 

[ajdelange]

Does the RO play a role on water pH?

It shouldn't but under under certain circumstances (high alkalinity water treated with acid to prevent membrane fouling with no means for the evolved CO2 to escape) it might.

I'm brewing with RO water from the Baltic sea which sounds a bit crazy but interesting too on the other hand. I have got a report which doesn't indicate the most important brewing ions but I got to see the pH of the water is 8.9. That sounds crazy high to me. What is your opinion?

RO water usually has a much lower pH (6's) because as it is mineral free even the tiny amount of CO2 in the air can acidify it.

Also one thing interesting is I have 110 ppm of Na (natrium, by the way is the same as sodium?) and 4 ppm of sulfates. Any comment on that?

When we speak of RO water here we usually mean tap water which has been run through a small system and is, thus, very low in mineral content. Depending on the source water the TDS is often a few ( <10) mg/L and the pH in the 6's as discussed above. In your case, however, it is apparent that the city's water supply comes from a regional desalinization plant which happens to use RO as a means of removing the salt from sea water. It is often the case, when this is done, that mineral are added to the RO water in order to meet the nutritional needs of the populace served, the mineral needs of crops irrigated with this water and to provide corrosion resistance in the distribution system, etc. That is probably what is responsible for the high pH. The high sodium (higher than many here would be comfortable with) is probably simply a result of the very high concentration of sodium in sea water and finite rejection of sodium in the RO process. Chloride is probably high too.

 

[Finlandbrews]

It shouldn't but under under certain circumstances (high alkalinity water treated with acid to prevent membrane fouling with no means for the evolved CO2 to escape) it might.

RO water usually has a much lower pH (6's) because ass it is mineral free even the tiny amount of CO2 in the air can acidify it.



When we speak of RO water here we usually mean tap water which has been run through a small system and is, thus, very low in mineral content. Depending on the source water the TDS is often a few ( <10) mg/L and the pH in the 6's as discussed above. In your case, however, it is apparent that the city's water supply comes from a regional desalinization plant which happens to use RO as a means of removing the salt from sea water. It is often the case, when this is done, that mineral are added to the RO water in order to meet the nutritional needs of the populace served, the mineral needs of crops irrigated with this water and to provide corrosion resistance in the distribution system, etc. That is probably what is responsible for the high pH. The high sodium (higher than many here would be comfortable with) is probably simply a result of the very high concentration of sodium in sea water and finite rejection of sodium in the RO process. Chloride is probably high too.

Actually, the reverse osmosis system is for 30 people who live year round on the southern most inhabited island of Finland, utö. All islands around have well water but the military had a base on this island and they needed a reverse osmosis plant because water volume and quality was not good enough. I will ask what salts additions are done... Thanks again ajdelange for your feedback.

 

[Yambor44]

I've been playing around with the BrewersFriend mash chemistry tool. After plugging in my numbers based on my water report from Ward Labs, I'm planning on adding 1tsp of Gypsum to the strike water and also 1 tsp to the sparge water treating 7.5 gallons of each for a total of 15.

This sample is from my well BEFORE the water softener. I brew primarily Pale Ales and IPA's, mainly IPA's.

Are my calculations correct based on this water profile?

View attachment Water1.pdf

 

[kaffeenjunkie]

Ok, I skipped the last 10 pages and ajdelange is gently guiding and answering questions on this thread after 9 plus years.

Thank you kindly sir for your patience and wisdom.

My brews will be better from this point forward.
As a chef, I am more in tune to what you preach. Start here, keep it as simple as possible, and adjust until you get what you want.

I admit it was a heavy slog for me and I have a good page of notes and hopefully a more "in tune" approach to brewing.

 

[Finlandbrews]

What is the temperature at which oxygen starts to dissipate from water? I ve heard that tap water could have 10 ppm of oxygen even more... What I'm thinking is that what could be the best temperature for hop isomerization and least loss of oxygen. What if we would make a 185 Fahrenheit "boil" for example for 60 minutes, how much oxygen would be lost there? Also, would 185 Fahrenheit for 60 minutes not be enough to kill bacteria/potential contaminants?

 

[ajdelange]

While it is hardly a topic for the Primer, water in equilibrium with the atmosphere at room temperature contains about 8.5 mg/L O2. At higher temperatures the content is lower. Hop isomerization is aided by higher temperature. Wort which has been boiled is essentially oxygen free. This is not considered a problem as wort is oxygenated either just before, during or just after pitching.

 

[urg8rb8]

Question. The primer here says to add acid malt. Is this to specifically drop the ph of grain bills that have lots of base malt and practically no crystal/roasted malt?

I used bru'n water and I entered the following:

13lbs 2-row
.5 C40L
.5 Cara pils
.5 Victory

When I use 1tsp/gallon for each of gypsum and calcium chloride, the calculated ph is 5.4 (which is where I should be right?) Adding in more acids will lower it. Can I just skip the acid all together?

This is for an IPA and I am mashing with 5.7 gallons and sparging with 5.4 gallons.

 

[soccerdad]

At 5.4 I would skip it, but you can plug 1 ounce into the worksheet to see it it drops to 5.3 or 5.2

 

[urg8rb8]

At 5.4 I would skip it, but you can plug 1 ounce into the worksheet to see it it drops to 5.3 or 5.2

1 oz (.06 lbs) of acid malt doesn't move the ph. I had to bump the acid malt to 1.6 oz (.1 lbs) to get the ph to drop to 5.3.

 

[ajdelange]

Question. The primer here says to add acid malt. Is this to specifically drop the ph of grain bills that have lots of base malt and practically no crystal/roasted malt?

Yes, that's exactly what it's for.

I used bru'n water and I entered the following:

13lbs 2-row
.5 C40L
.5 Cara pils
.5 Victory

When I use 1tsp/gallon for each of gypsum and calcium chloride, the calculated ph is 5.4 (which is where I should be right?) Adding in more acids will lower it. Can I just skip the acid all together?

You have to decide whether you believe the Primer is a better predictor of mash pH or the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet pretends it knows the details of the malts' acid base characteristics. The Primer makes no such pretense. Which will be more accurate? I don't know. The only way to really find out is to obtain a pH meter and measure the mash (or a test mash).

Given that you have decided to use a spreadsheet you could reason that you are one step beyond the Primer and follow the spreadsheet. I often encourage people if they make that decision to try several of the spreadsheets.

 

[urg8rb8]

Yes, that's exactly what it's for.



You have to decide whether you believe the Primer is a better predictor of mash pH or the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet pretends it knows the details of the malts' acid base characteristics. The Primer makes no such pretense. Which will be more accurate? I don't know. The only way to really find out is to obtain a pH meter and measure the mash (or a test mash).

Given that you have decided to use a spreadsheet you could reason that you are one step beyond the Primer and follow the spreadsheet. I often encourage people if they make that decision to try several of the spreadsheets.

I agree -- I understand what you mean. But I'm not saying I disagree with your primer at all. All these tools are ways to get us into the ballpark figure, but at the end of the day, we need to use ph meters to really get it down perfectly.

I just plugged in the numbers into EZ Water and I get a ph of 5.5.

 

[urg8rb8]

Well, I brewed my AG IPA and just added the gypsum and calcium chloride without any lactic acid and I hit my OG and FG numbers EXACTLY!

 

[mabrungard]

Well, I brewed my AG IPA and just added the gypsum and calcium chloride without any lactic acid and I hit my OG and FG numbers EXACTLY!

Congratulations. Unfortunately, OG and FG numbers have little to do with proper pH. Beer flavor is highly affected by pH throughout the brewing process.

 

[urg8rb8]

Congratulations. Unfortunately, OG and FG numbers have little to do with proper pH. Beer flavor is highly affected by pH throughout the brewing process.

Thanks. I'll report back in like three weeks or so.

 

[urg8rb8]

I also got 83% efficiency.