A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[Dancy]

Ran across this post a couple of months ago and brewed my last 2 batches using the 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons and 2% acid malt in RO water that starts out around 4 ppm. I was using tap water treated with campden before. Wow, what a difference!

I did something like this when I brewed Northern Brewer’s Caribou Slobber brown ale. I’d have to check my notes but I believe I used 2 tsp of calcium chloride and 3-4 oz of acid malt with RO water. I was very happy with the results.

 

[brewstergalVT]

Sorry for my mistake of posting this here, have since started a new thread for the following post...
Thank you for the primer. I've just purchased a countertop RO system for brewing and have only made it to page 15 of this thread so forgive me if the questions I post are answered somewhere from page 15 to here.
Just the questions:
1) can I add all the minerals only to the mash and 2) then sparge with only RO water (if so acidify or not)? Here are the details:

I'm planning to do a 100% RO pils just to see how it differs from my typical pils using my tap water (which seems a bit minerally to me). For a 5 gallon batch I looked at Bru'n Water and determined that 1.3 grams CaCl in the mash & 1.3 grams in the sparge would yield about 25ppm Ca and about 46 Cl (using the spreadsheet RO numbers).

Is there anything wrong with using all 2.6 grams of the CaCl in the mash? My reason for this would be to have higher Ca in the mash for pH lowering. Then sparge with straight RO water. Is there a downside to using just RO for sparging if the minerals have been added in the mash? Also, in the past I've almost always acidified my sparge water due to my RA. From what I've read that's not necessary but will it hurt anything? My mash pH goal with light beers is always 5.3 (room temp). I'll be using 10 lb of pilsner malt and adding some acid malt, my typical is .6 oz acid malt per pound of pale base malt. I'm guessing I'll need to adjust the acid malt amount down when using 100% RO water but I'll figure that out by the pH readings.

Here's my tap water profile: Ca 54, Mg 3, Cl <1, Na 3, Sulfate 18, Bicarbonate 130, Alkalinity 131, Hardness 145, TDS 215. By my calculations RA 115. I have always been a boil and decant brewer to try and reduce the temporary hardness and then add in 2 grams CaCl to the mash only. Then to the sparge water I add either lactic acid or phosphoric acid because even with boiling I know I still have some RA left. But with RO giving a zero (or negative?) RA, it's new territory for me. I really want to be able to make better light beers. My beers are good but water adjustment is the last area for me to look at, frankly because it's been the most difficult part for me to figure out. I think water adjustment is where one can find the intangibles in beer. I'm finally at the point where I think I'm understanding alkalinity and hardness, how to adjust what and why but I've still got quite a bit to learn.

 

[PrrCabin]

So...it's been about three weeks since this thread was started. Enough time for someone to have tried out the method proposed herein and at least have a sense for how it turned out (taste-wise)...

Anyone??? Let's hear it! I'm anxious to give it a shot; probably won't have time for at least another week.

I'm going to brew an Edmund Fitzgerald Clone tomorrow using RO water and 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate per 5 gals. I check back in a few.

 

[jlinz]

Question for anyone:

I’m making an oatmeal stout and sort of messed up. I included the 2% acidulated malt in the grist and used the teaspoon of calcium chloride. Basically, I did the regular baseline with a stout. Will it turn out fine or will it have a bad effect on the beer?

 

[mabrungard]

For both of the previous posts, the lack of alkalinity in the mash is likely to make the roastiness of those beers more acrid and less smooth. The acid malt certainly wasn’t needed or desirable. Roasty beers often benefit from having some alkalinity in the mashing water.

 

[jlinz]

For both of the previous posts, the lack of alkalinity in the mash is likely to make the roastiness of those beers more acrid and less smooth. The acid malt certainly wasn’t needed or desirable. Roasty beers often benefit from having some alkalinity in the mashing water.

Thanks! Is there a way to up the alkalinity? I have not mashed the beer yet. The acidulated malt is just mixed into the grains I will use at this point.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thanks! Is there a way to up the alkalinity?

Yes, calculate it yourself or use a purpose built calculator to tailor your mash water alkalinity additions to your recipes grist characteristics. Baking Soda and Pickling Lime are two popular choices. Alkalize mash water only. Never add alkalinity to sparge water. Only the darker brews need alkalinity. Lighter brews often need acid. If you are not using RO or distilled, you will need to get your water analyzed to determine how much alkalinity (and other stuff) it already has in it.

 

[jlinz]

Yes, calculate it yourself or use a purpose built calculator to tailor your mash water alkalinity additions to your recipes grist characteristics. Baking Soda and Pickling Lime are two popular choices. Alkalize mash water only. Never add alkalinity to sparge water. Only the darker brews need alkalinity. Lighter brews often need acid. If you are not using RO or distilled, you will need to get your water analyzed to determine how much alkalinity (and other stuff) it already has in it.

I am using RO water. Just trying to introduce enough allalinity to make up for accidently adding 2% acidulated malt to the grain for the stout.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I am using RO water. Just trying to introduce enough allalinity to make up for accidently adding 2% acidulated malt to the grain for the stout.

Acidity is something which is to be addressed by altering ones mash water. If your beer is already fermenting the yeast will set the final beer pH to their liking. There is nothing you can do at this juncture.

 

[jlinz]

Acidity is something which is to be addressed by altering ones mash water. If your beer is already fermenting the yeast will set the final beer pH to their liking. There is nothing you can do at this juncture.

I have not brewed the beer yet, just milled the grain.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have not brewed the beer yet, just milled the grain.

If all you desire to accomplish is to negate the acidity of the 2% acid malt in the grist then a ballpark precision cure would be to first determine how many ounces of acid malt you added and then divide that value by 1.25 and then add that many grams of baking soda to your mash water.

Example:

You added 5 oz. of acid malt
5/1.25 = 4
Add 4 grams of baking soda to the mash water only

But after that you need to re-read post #1607 above, as Stout water generally requires some amount of added alkalinity.

 

[jlinz]

If all you desire to accomplish is to negate the acidity of the 2% acid malt in the grist then a ballpark precision cure would be to first determine how many ounces of acid malt you added and then divide that value by 1.25 and then add that many grams of baking soda to your mash water.

Example:

You added 5 oz. of acid malt
5/1.25 = 4
Add 4 grams of baking soda to the mash water only

But after that you need to re-read post #1607 above, as Stout water generally requires some amount of added alkalinity.

That’s what I was looking for! Thanks for the help!

 

[Colin Kaminski]

I am guilty of perpetuating a myth of the yeast controlling the acidity of the beer without regard to the mash pH. I now know that this is not the whole picture. The first thing yeast does is lower the pH of the fermentation but the exact value is dependent on the yeast strain and the wort pH. I used to believe that it would hit a constant pH based on strain but it turned out that I like a specific beer pH and I was adjusting my recipient to hit 4.2 pH by taste without realizing it. John Palmer did some experiments to try to push the same strain of yeast and was able to make a .4 pH range based on wort pH.

 

[cmac62]

I have read all 41 pages of this thread. I really appreciate the simplicity of the idea of the primer. Thank all of the experts for their time and expertise. My question is, my water report from the municipal source lists averages for the various salts and other variables, are these close enough to use as the baseline on the various spreadsheets? Also, with an alkalinity of 84 can I use my tap water? My guess is that it will need to be mixed with RO or distilled to get in the usable range. Thanks

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have read all 41 pages of this thread. I really appreciate the simplicity of the idea of the primer. Thank all of the experts for their time and expertise. My question is, my water report from the municipal source lists averages for the various salts and other variables, are these close enough to use as the baseline on the various spreadsheets? Also, with an alkalinity of 84 can I use my tap water? My guess is that it will need to be mixed with RO or distilled to get in the usable range. Thanks

The alkalinity can be addressed via phosphoric acid. See AJ deLange's "Zero Alkalinity Method" thread for details.

 

[cmac62]

^Will do Silver. Thanks for the reply.

 

[downzero]

I think I need to read this whole thread, but even after listening to podcasts, reading Palmer's How to Brew again, and playing with some calculators, I'm having the hardest time understanding water treatment. Someone should put together a simple list of things to have on hand to adjust water profile and how to get there; all of the chemicals are compounds and the variables move all over the place. Given that I've advanced this far without messing with water, I really wonder how much I'm missing out on by struggling to understand this. I'd appreciate any responses and I will go back and read the whole 41 pages later tonight.

 

[balrog]

I personally think that post #1 says it all in the simplest of terms for me.
@ajdelange chimed in sometime later saying that the amounts these days are generally 1/2 those original amounts as back then people preferred more minerally taste.

But you really cannot go wrong with post #1. It's a long, deep, bumpy rabbit hole to go down to get into the nitty gritty.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think I need to read this whole thread, but even after listening to podcasts, reading Palmer's How to Brew again, and playing with some calculators, I'm having the hardest time understanding water treatment.

When experts offer different approaches to a problem, a good approach is to pick a single expert and follow their advice.

Someone should put together a simple list of things to have on hand to adjust water profile and how to get there; all of the chemicals are compounds and the variables move all over the place.

if you are willing to start with RO/distilled water:

• Homebrew Beyond the Basics, 2e (Karnowski) has two water profiles: hoppy and malty; measure the brewing salts with an scale that has .01 gram accuracy
• Brewing Better Beer (Strong) has a similar approach.

Given that I've advanced this far without messing with water, I really wonder how much I'm missing out on by struggling to understand this. I'd appreciate any responses and I will go back and read the whole 41 pages later tonight.

Pick a single expert and brew using their advice.

 

[cmac62]

balrog, AJ wrote most of post #1, Yooper just posted it and made it a sticky. I also agree with KooperKat that find something simple and go with it. I may have to check out the Karnowski and Strong approaches because I am trying to get the water dialed in. Good luck with your water.

 

[syrinx]

Hello, can I ask you an advice for our Lager (Saaz)?

Which water profile do you advise me to use? I was with Lactic acid + Gypsum OR Gypsum only. Now, I'm with only Phosphoric acid addition and I think it's less good (the taste of hops doesn't pop up).

I don't use RO water. My water profile is attached without treatment and before heating.

Thank you very much.

 

[copper2hopper]

I just got this from my water department today. Very nice of them to have on hand and provide a timely response. Is this good stuff to brew with?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Add about 6.5 mL of 85% phosphoric acid to every 5 gallons of it (both mash and sparge) and it will be a good basis of water to brew with. Cut the 85% Phosphoric addition to about 4.2 mL for every 5 gallons of specifically mash water only if you are brewing the likes of robust Porters or Stouts. Always add the full 6.5 mL to all sparge water.

 

[copper2hopper]

Add about 6.5 mL of 85% phosphoric acid to every 5 gallons of it and it will be a good basis of water to brew with. Cut the 85% Phosphoric addition to about 4.2 mL for every 5 gallons if you are brewing Porters or Stouts.

Thank you. Where can I get that kinda stuff. My preliminary searches is only finding me 10% solutions

 

[FrostyBeach]

I buy food grade phosphoric acid from: https://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=FGphos
Use care in handling it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would presume that this water also contains chlorine and/or chloramines. Also add 1/4 of a crushed Campden tablet to every 5 gallons to eliminate these anti-bacterial kill agents. This works almost instantaneously.

As stated above, many of us use Duda Diesel 85% Phosphoric Acid. You can purchase it on Amazon.com. Wear necessary PPE such as goggles, apron, rubber gloves, and even a face shield when using it. Dispense measured volumes with an appropriately sized plastic syringe.

 

[copper2hopper]

Thanks fellas.

 

[copper2hopper]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

If you're taste buds are sensitive enough, you might taste Lactic Acid.
For 88% Lactic Acid it's 8.3 mL per 5 gallons, or 5.5 mL per 5 gallons for Porters and Stouts (with 8.3 mL per 5 gallons for all sparge water).

Phosphoric Acid is far more tasteless.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah it’s 25 bucks for 1 quart. Is there anything wrong with using lactic acid? I have that on hand for free

That's because the 950 mL size is not currently available on Amazon.com, where you get the free shipping deal.

 

[copper2hopper]

Found this... I-MAX Phosphoric Acid 85% Food Grade, Rust Remover, pH Down - 1 US Quart, HIGH Purity https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H4K181M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_B0EqEbFZFDB8K

That work?

 

[mabrungard]

Found this... I-MAX Phosphoric Acid 85% Food Grade, Rust Remover, pH Down - 1 US Quart, HIGH Purity https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H4K181M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_B0EqEbFZFDB8K

That work?

Sure, if you don’t value the health of yourself and your friends. Use only food-grade (or reagent grade in a pinch) for safety. High purity doesn’t mean much.

 

[copper2hopper]

Ok then the stuff from dudadiesel it is then since that’s better? I figured “food grade” woulda been ok with that.

 

[copper2hopper]

dudadiesel brand phos bought. Thanks for the feedback guys and heads up on NOT getting that amazon stuff mabrungard.

 

[mabrungard]

You never know what’s in that stuff and it has huge ability to dissolve all kinds of nasties.

 

[cheesebach]

You never know what’s in that stuff and it has huge ability to dissolve all kinds of nasties.

Trying to understand what is the difference that makes the duda diesal phosphoric "safe" and the other from the Amazon link "unsafe" - Is it that the supplier of the latter product is not reputable, so while it claims to be "food grade" it may not actually be? Or is there some other certification/designation (aside from "food grade") that the duda diesel product comes with that the one from amazon doesn't have? If we don't trust that a product sold as "food grade" actually meets "food grade" standards, do we have any assurance that the product sold by duda diesel is actually "food grade"?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Trying to understand what is the difference that makes the duda diesal phosphoric "safe" and the other from the Amazon link "unsafe" - Is it that the supplier of the latter product is not reputable, so while it claims to be "food grade" it may not actually be? Or is there some other certification/designation (aside from "food grade") that the duda diesel product comes with that the one from amazon doesn't have? If we don't trust that a product sold as "food grade" actually meets "food grade" standards, do we have any assurance that the product sold by duda diesel is actually "food grade"?

Duda Diesel gives out certificates of analysis upon request.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I just finished reading the entire thread. Wow! Such incredible generosity and incredible patience by @ajdelange! The amount of time he took to explain the primer so thoroughly, as well as the number of times he had to repeat himself to those not taking the time to read the thread is truly astounding. Thank you! This approach to brewing is a godsend, especially to those with difficult source water.

It's unfortunate that the first post could not be edited, as many of the repeat questions had to do with a revision of this post. For those of you just coming to this thread, I have extracted the key portion from the first post and edited it (bolded text) to the way I think @ajdelange intended. Please correct me if I'm wrong:


Baseline: Add 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use 1/4 tsp of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Use 1/2 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum (i.e. 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gypsum).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

For British beers: Use 1/2 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum (i.e. 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gypsum).

BTW, I should add that I'm not clear about the "minerally" beers. He says to "double" the calcium chloride and gypsum, but since gypsum is not included in the "baseline", then I assume he must be referring to doubling the previous line, where gypsum IS used. Hopefully someone can clarify this.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

There is an article in BYO that is not available anymore for non subscribers. They analysed the water profile of finished popular beers including a tree house and also analyse the water of a beer brewed by the author Michael Tonsmeire I believe.
Grains give sulfate and more chloride

Do you recall what issue that was, @beervoid, or even the approximate year?