A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[roncruiser]

Yes, an IPA will require acid in some form unless an great deal of dark crystal is used in which case it wouldn't be very pale. The acid can be added in other forms. Sulfuric and hydrochloric are traditional in British brewing but hard to obtain in food grade by home brewers in the US. An addition of 3% sauermalz is equivalent, approximately, to 0.38 mL 88% lactic acid per pound of grist or 4.1 mL of 10% phosphoric acid per pound of grist.

Would the 3% be as part of the total amount, or 3% on top of the total amount. In other words... 97% + 3%, or 100% + 3%

Thanks again. It been a very helpful thread.

 

[ajdelange]

3% is small enough that it doesn't make much difference.
3/103 = 2.91%
3/100 = 3.00%

 

[roncruiser]

3% is small enough that it doesn't make much difference.
3/103 = 2.91%
3/100 = 3.00%

Understood, but what was your intention

 

[TechyDork]

Understood, but what was your intention

It aint rocket surgery, .09% is nothing. Your talking a fraction of an ounce of grain either way.

20lb grain bill

3% = .6 lbs (9.6 oz) acid malt
2.91% = .582 lbs (9.312 oz) acid malt

 

[roncruiser]

It aint rocket surgery, .09% is nothing. Your talking a fraction of an ounce of grain either way.

20lb grain bill

3% = .6 lbs (9.6 oz) acid malt
2.91% = .582 lbs (9.312 oz) acid malt

What's rocket surgery? Haha.

I said I understood. Nothing wrong with understanding the intent.

 

[roncruiser]

What I asked was different. Based on you 20 pound example:
19.4lbs +. 6lbs
or
20 pounds +. 6 lbs.

.6lbs = 9.6 ounces

 

[MagicMatt]

I won't speak for AJ but I've always taken it as 3% additional. Your grain bill as-is would be 100%, and the 3% is additional would bring it to 103% of original. Thus, if you add it to a program like BeerSmith, the actual percentage of the acid malt once added would be 2.91%.

Though I agree that on a such a small scale it shouldn't matter.

 

[MagicMatt]

Delete, I must be drunk.

 

[jmadway]

I am not A.J. and would never claim to be anywhere near as knowledgeable. However, my advice would be to go with straight R.O. water and not look back. You will not have to worry about seasonal changes or dilution factors.

I have done so following the advice of this thread and my beers have gotten significantly better since doing so.

Agreed. I am now about 5 brews in to my switch to RO. I've kept the additions really simple and have eliminated the guess work from the daunting question of "what is really in my water?" While I'm not sure of the actual impact on my beer, everything I've brewed with RO has turned out really well and it certainly is an easy process. Much simpler than building up from my tap water.

 

[TechyDork]

What's rocket surgery? Haha.

I said I understood. Nothing wrong with understanding the intent.

sorry i was just kidding. Guess i never really thought too much about it. I use BeerSmith and I just add enough into the recipe for it to be 3% of the total grain bill.

 

[MagicMatt]

Agreed. I am now about 5 brews in to my switch to RO. I've kept the additions really simple and have eliminated the guess work from the daunting question of "what is really in my water?" While I'm not sure of the actual impact on my beer, everything I've brewed with RO has turned out really well and it certainly is an easy process. Much simpler than building up from my tap water.

What do y'all use to raise the pH when brewing darker beers and using 100% RO?

 

[ajdelange]

I've never actually had to do that (I don't brew a lot of really dark beers except the occasional 70 SRM stout) but extensive experiment and study seems to indicate that sodium bicarbonate is the best bet unless you are already at high sodium levels in which case calcium hydroxide is probably best. The calcium carbonate which home brewers have used in quantity for years turns out to have problems associated with it (takes forever to react).

 

[TobyG]

What do y'all use to raise the pH when brewing darker beers and using 100% RO?

I never use 100% RO. I used to use Kentwood, though. But if you wanted to use RO and add sodium bicarbonate, you could get someone from the BR area to bring you some of their tap water (I also hear the Northshore has a similar analysis). Our water is from a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, so that's pretty much the only mineral content. The profile here is a little higher in Sodium (my tested water was 79 ppm) than mine, but pretty close overall:
http://brbrewers.com/content.cfm?id=237

 

[MagicMatt]

I've never actually had to do that (I don't brew a lot of really dark beers except the occasional 70 SRM stout) but extensive experiment and study seems to indicate that sodium bicarbonate is the best bet unless you are already at high sodium levels in which case calcium hydroxide is probably best. The calcium carbonate which home brewers have used in quantity for years turns out to have problems associated with it (takes forever to react).

Thanks, I'll have to look into the baking soda. My tap water has about 30ppm Sodium. What would be considered "high" sodium levels? And what would the threshold be for adding sodium bicarbonate (i.e are there negative effects from adding "too much")?

I never use 100% RO. I used to use Kentwood, though. But if you wanted to use RO and add sodium bicarbonate, you could get someone from the BR area to bring you some of their tap water (I also hear the Northshore has a similar analysis). Our water is from a sodium bicarbonate aquifer, so that's pretty much the only mineral content.

Ha I never realized you were from down here, nice! I actually do have a brewing friend who just moved to BR and still comes down for brew day, but looking at those numbers I don't think my water is too far off. That shows a alkalinity of 174, mine is about 140. And with the higher sodium levels I'm not sure if it would be worth it. Definitely something to think about though, thanks!

 

[TobyG]

Thanks, I'll have to look into the baking soda. My tap water has about 30ppm Sodium. What would be considered "high" sodium levels? And what would the threshold be for adding sodium bicarbonate (i.e are there negative effects from adding "too much")?

The effect would be salty beer. Honestly, you'd probably be better off mixing RO and tap.

Ha I never realized you were from down here, nice! I actually do have a brewing friend who just moved to BR and still comes down for brew day, but looking at those numbers I don't think my water is too far off. That shows a alkalinity of 174, mine is about 140. And with the higher sodium levels I'm not sure if it would be worth it. Definitely something to think about though, thanks!

Generally speaking, NOLA's mineral content is higher but sodium and bicarbonate are lower since the water source is surface water instead of aquifer. But yeah, I'm from south of NOLA (Lafourche parish) originally and live just outside of BR now. Before we got a LHBS, I used to shop at Brewstock all the time. I actually stopped in a few weeks ago and bought out the WLP028 since I was at a client not too far away. The Kolsch that Kyle made for NOOT last year was my recipe.

 

[mchrispen]

Pickling Lime is an effective alkali when needed. It does add calcium and hydroxide, and acts very quickly in the mash assuming you are thoroughly mixing. Bru'n Water can help to calculate the amount. I prefer Pickling Lime over Baking Soda because of the quick action and the lack of sodium. All that said - some sodium and magnesium in the water profile can add a nice nuance to a dark beer, especially something malt heavy.

Of course - Msr. Toby makes some of the finest strong ales I have tasted... he has his process dialed in.

 

[roncruiser]

Agreed. I am now about 5 brews in to my switch to RO. I've kept the additions really simple and have eliminated the guess work from the daunting question of "what is really in my water?" While I'm not sure of the actual impact on my beer, everything I've brewed with RO has turned out really well and it certainly is an easy process. Much simpler than building up from my tap water.

Cool. That's the same approach I'm taking but instead of RO, I am using DI.

 

[jmadway]

Cool. That's the same approach I'm taking but instead of RO, I am using DI.

Why have you made that decision?

 

[ajdelange]

Pickling Lime is an effective alkali when needed. It does add calcium and hydroxide, and acts very quickly in the mash assuming you are thoroughly mixing.

I have some data which shows that it does not act that quickly in 'in vitro' experiments with phosphate. I need to try it with actual malt and see if this is still the case (i.e. do a titration with kalkwasser and malt) but I won't be able to do that until fall. I think John P may have referenced some of my data in the Water book.

 

[mchrispen]

I have some data which shows that it does not act that quickly in 'in vitro' experiments with phosphate. I need to try it with actual malt and see if this is still the case (i.e. do a titration with kalkwasser and malt) but I won't be able to do that until fall. I think John P may have referenced some of my data in the Water book.

I have the book handy and will look that up. I plan to run some tests soon myself and compare to baking soda. I was under the impression that hydroxide reacts nearly immediately in the liquid, where the bicarbonate in the baking soda takes a little more time to hydrate. Both are effective, but with my residual sodium, I tend to avoid adding more. In both, it seems the reactions are fast enough that it is difficult to get good samples cooled to room temps, which may have biased my notes. Actually - I have some RO set out, I can run a quick test at room temp, see if I can generate a reasonable slope.

 

[TheMadKing]

So I think I need some advice.

RO water isn't the cheapest thing in the world where I am, so I'm trying to figure out a way to bring my bicarbonate down in my home and I think (if I've read enough of this thread.. ~50 pages worth) that I should be able to add Ca++ to the water and boil it which will provide a catalyst for the precipitation reaction and the bicarbs would fall out of solution. So my 3 questions are:

1. Would that even work or would I be better off just shelling for RO water every batch then following the primer?

2. (assuming that would work) I just need to add enough Ca to reduce my bicarbonate to 0 and have enough left over for 50-150ppm?

3. What Ca salt should I use to not mess up the other ion levels in my water?

I was thinking CaCl or gypsum, and I could add some potassium metabisulfide to reduce the chlorine if I use CaCl.

Here's my water report, all units a ppm

Calcium 21
Magnesium 14
Bicarbonate 150
Sodium 20
Chloride 5
Sulfate 5
total alkalinity 170

 

[ajdelange]

RO water isn't the cheapest thing in the world where I am, so I'm trying to figure out a way to bring my bicarbonate down in my home and I think (if I've read enough of this thread.. ~50 pages worth) that I should be able to add Ca++ to the water and boil it which will provide a catalyst for the precipitation reaction and the bicarbs would fall out of solution.

The calcium isn't a catalyst - it takes place in the reaction and is precipitated along with the carbonate.

1. Would that even work or would I be better off just shelling for RO water every batch then following the primer?

Boiling (with or without supplemented calcium) is widely used to decarbonate brewing water. Using RO or diluting with RO to the point where you practically have pure RO and using the primer also is widely used. Certainly the latter is easier in many ways and is within the purview of the Primer.

2. (assuming that would work) I just need to add enough Ca to reduce my bicarbonate to 0 and have enough left over for 50-150ppm?

You cannot remove all the bicarbonate with this method. You need to understand the method better. You can start at
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=529977
Softening by this method is definitely not within the purview of the Primer which is dedicated to KISS approaches.

3. What Ca salt should I use to not mess up the other ion levels in my water?

I was thinking CaCl or gypsum, and I could add some potassium metabisulfide to reduce the chlorine if I use CaCl.

Given the low levels of everything else you can use any calcium salt you want (except, obviously, things like calcium cyanide) and would, in most cases use either calcium chloride or calcium sulfate.

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok, I read that other thread, and thank you so much for directing me there! Self checking here... Ca and bicarbonate will both precipitate out leaving 1 mEq/L of whichever value was lower at the start.

Therefore I should add Ca until it's ppm exceed the bicarbonate ppm and I will be left with 1 mEq/L bicarbonate and the calcium will be 1 mEq/L + whatever amount I added in excess of the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that correctly?

(I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I work in physics not chemistry, all this stuff is very rusty for me )

 

[ajdelange]

Therefore I should add Ca until it's ppm exceed the bicarbonate ppm and I will be left with 1 mEq/L bicarbonate and the calcium will be 1 mEq/L + whatever amount I added in excess of the bicarbonate. Am I understanding that correctly?

Eaxmple: Alkalinity 170/50 = 3.4 mEq/L. Add calcium salts to 4 mEq/L. You should then precipitate 2.4 mEq/L each of carbonate and calcium leaving 1 mEq/L alkalinity and 4 - 2.4 = 1.6 mEq/L Ca++

(I'm sorry if I'm being dense, I work in physics not chemistry, all this stuff is very rusty for me )

Not dense - you've got this one. As it's physical chemistry I'm sure you'll get the hang of it pretty quickly.

 

[TheMadKing]

Eaxmple: Alkalinity 170/50 = 3.4 mEq/L. Add calcium salts to 4 mEq/L. You should then precipitate 2.4 mEq/L each of carbonate and calcium leaving 1 mEq/L alkalinity and 4 - 2.4 = 1.6 mEq/L Ca++

Ahhh that does make more sense, I think I've got a handle on it now. You sir are a national treasure, thank you!

 

[shemp]

subscribe

 

[bcltoys]

Without reading this whole thread and if I did proly would still not understand this whole water thing if i start with RO or distilled water what would I do just to make a all around good water. I/E what would I use and how much per gallon of water used. I am a IPA freak.

 

[mabrungard]

Without reading this whole thread and if I did proly would still not understand this whole water thing if i start with RO or distilled water what would I do just to make a all around good water. I/E what would I use and how much per gallon of water used. I am a IPA freak.

You wouldn't find what you want for an IPA in this thread. This thread is intended to give the beginning water contestant an idea of what they need to help out their brewing with minimal thought. It is a Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) approach that is a big step in the right direction for anyone that doesn't want to think too much about water.

If you want to explore better IPA water, you might consider visiting the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water site and exploring Bru'n Water.

 

[ajdelange]

Without reading this whole thread and if I did proly would still not understand this whole water thing if i start with RO or distilled water what would I do just to make a all around good water. I/E what would I use and how much per gallon of water used. I am a IPA freak.

The answer to your question is in #1 though I now tend to advise people to use half a teaspoon each of calcium chloride and gypsum per 5 gal. This is a good starting point for an IPA though you will have to adjust the sulfate (and perhaps the chloride as well) to give you the combination of effects from those ions that you like best which will depend on your personal tastes. The idea behind starting with half a tsp of each is that you can experiment with adding additional small amounts of these salts to the finished beer in the glass to see if you think more improves or degrades it.

 

[thekraken]

I'm sure this has been discussed and I apologize up front for repeating the question but the search thread function wasn't helpful. When do we add the gypsum and cacl? Before or during dough in? If it's during do we need to hold back a proportionate amount of the additions for the sparge water? ( I know this is counter to the KISS philosophy of the sticky )

Also, to convert from sauermalz to adding 88% lactic acid I came up with the following, does this look close enough?:

88% lactic acid solution (milliliters) = (( 0.015 * (ORIGINAL_GRAIN_WEIGHT_LBS / ( 1 / PERCENT_SAUERMALZ -1) ) * 453.592) / 0.88 )/ 1.21
                      = (( 0.015 * SAUERMALZ_WEIGHT_LBS * 453.592) / 0.88 )/ 1.21
                      = 6.389819684447784 * SAUERMALZ_WEIGHT_LBS

(Given that sauermalz is 1 to 2% lactic acid by weight, using 1.5%)
For example for 10 lb grain bill add 0.20 lb sauermalz OR 1.30 ml of 88% lactic acid.