60 min. full boil Malt Extract vs. late addition Malt Extract - What Say You?

[Indianhead_Brewer]

I have been trying to soak up as much brewing information as I can since I joined the forum a few weeks back and wow have I learned a lot from all the old threads I have been searching through.

In my constant search for more brewing information I went over to the Brewing Network and started downloading episodes of Brew Strong (thinking maybe I can absorb more brewing info while attempting to get some work done - yeah fat chance of me actually multitasking). The first episode I decided to listen to was one on "Brewing Kit Beer" (Broadcast: 11/29/2010) since that is the point I am at in my brewing career and figured maybe I would pick up some tips I hadn't picked up somewhere else.

Well lo and behold something new to me was discussed and I wasn't sure I heard it right.......enough so that I had to go back and listen again today. Jamil and JP seemed to be advocating not boiling your malt extract or at least not boiling it very much. Basically Jamil said "Don't double boil the stuff, it's already been boiled" in reference to boiling extracts. In thinking about that LME is already wort that has been boiled off the under a partial vacuum and DME is just extract that has been atomized and dried.....which means you don't need to cook the stuff again....at least not excessively. Jamil and JP basically said you just need to cook the stuff enough to dissolve and pasteurize....which doesn't take that long.

Overall their reasoning behind this was that this would potentially decrease the perceived "tang" that people sometimes think comes along with extracts as well as to provide lighter color and to avoid carmelization of the sugars (Maillard rxn) since this stuff has already been cooked once before.

So I am planning out a Sierra Nevada clone extract brew with specialty grains. Instead of following the kit directions I was gonna change things up to align with what I heard these guys talking about. So instead of adding all the malt extract at beginning of the boil I was thinking about doing the following.

- 0.5 lbs Briess Caramel 60 (Steep until 170 degrees, remove, bring to boil)
- 1 lb Briess Golden Light DME (60 minutes)
- 0.75 oz Chinook (60 min)
- 1 oz German Perle (20 min)
- 6 lbs Gold malt syrup (10 min or maybe even at flameout)
- 2 oz Cascade (0 min)

Does this seem OK, or am I just plain stupid?

Just to confirm what had been discussed by Jamil and JP I've searched around this forum and other places a bit and it seems like this would be OK.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/late-malt-addition-288333/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/malt-extract-flameout-295888/
http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/20/better-beer-with-late-malt-extract-additions/

 

[JonK331]

That is a much better way to do it. I wouldn't even boil the DME but it wouldn't hurt if you do. A lot of the time the kit instructions are over simplified or outdated, most of the time it's better to ignore them.

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

Thanks JonK331! Yeah the only thing right now I am trying to adjust/understand is the potential change in IBUs since according to Tinseth (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/) it seems like boiling hops in lower gravity liquids will increase the IBU's. Some of what I have seen has said to back off on the hops by 20-25% to adjust for this difference. I'm gonna have to think about that part of it a bit more.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks JonK331! Yeah the only thing right now I am trying to adjust/understand is the potential change in IBUs since according to Tinseth (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/) it seems like boiling hops in lower gravity liquids will increase the IBU's. Some of what I have seen has said to back off on the hops by 20-25% to adjust for this difference. I'm gonna have to think about that part of it a bit more.

Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".

But here is my experience, for what it's worth. In a beer with, say, 35 IBUs I haven't noticed much of a change at all, and even if there is a small change in IBUs, the human tongue really can't notice a difference of 5 IBUs.

But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."

In any case, since then (about 2006 or so), I've been suggesting that for very low IBU beers where a difference of IBUs may be more noticeable, lowering the bittering hops by 15-20% may not be a bad idea. In other beers, it would not be nearly as critical and perhaps a difference of 8-10 IBUs would be less significant anyway.

 

[ryno84]

I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".

But here is my experience, for what it's worth. In a beer with, say, 35 IBUs I haven't noticed much of a change at all, and even if there is a small change in IBUs, the human tongue really can't notice a difference of 5 IBUs.

But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."

In any case, since then (about 2006 or so), I've been suggesting that for very low IBU beers where a difference of IBUs may be more noticeable, lowering the bittering hops by 15-20% may not be a bad idea. In other beers, it would not be nearly as critical and perhaps a difference of 8-10 IBUs would be less significant anyway.

Nice Yooper! This is the sort of thing I needed to hear. The interweb is useful, but some stuff lives on in perpetuity and people like me read it years down the road thinking things haven't changed. What you said makes a lot of sense regarding highly bittered beers vs. low bittered beers in that you will notice slight bitterness changes in low IBU beers vs. higher IBU beers. I think maybe I will just give it a try and follow my original hopping rate/schedule and see what happens since this is a moderately hoppy beer.

What are your thoughts on adding the DME and boiling for 60 minutes? Necessary? John Palmer kind of glossed over something and said that if you were hopping (like I am) that you would want to add some extract early on to get an appropriate pH in your boil for hops utilization.

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

Yeah, the podcast sort of blew my mind in this respect (boil for 60 vs. add late and just pasteurize) and once again went against most reading I have done up until this point. Even the online 1st addition of Palmer notes to add all the extract at the beginning of the boil (I am assuming this is different in the 3rd edition - Just another reason I need to buy a hard copy of this book). What they were saying makes complete sense though in that boiling the extract again wasn't necessary since it's already been cooked once.

Like you hops utilization is way over my head at this point and I am not going to pretend to have a grasp of it.

 

[JonK331]

I have been confused over this debate as well. I have read threads on here about late addition extract and thought this is what I should do. But then when I picked up my last kit at MoreBeer (which is my LHBS), they told me I should be boiling the extract for the full 60 minutes. He admitted I didn't have to, but that he recommended it.

So, now I am more confused as ever. I guess there are just two theories on the matter. I figure I will have to try out both and see if there is a difference. Of course, making changes to the hops schedule because of the hops utilization part is really over my head.

I hate to say it but the guy at MB was totally wrong. Check out this article which supports Jamil/Palmer: http://baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=22691&cat=396&page=1

 

[badbrew]

I hate to say it but the guy at MB was totally wrong. Check out this article which supports Jamil/Palmer: http://baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=22691&cat=396&page=1

I'm gonna try this on my pliny clone next. The one thing I hate is trying to get the boil back after adding extract.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Best way to do it is to follow the instructions and to do it your way....so make two batches and see if the beer is so different it changes your mind. Ive just started hearing about late malt additions but I'll stick to boiling it twice as it works for me.

 

[Yooper]

Adding the extract at the end of the boil is pretty new practice, but it's been embraced by most now. I was reading a Zymurgy article about a year ago with Charlie Papazian where Charlie said he had never heard of this, though, so maybe it's not quite as common as I thought!

It makes sense if you think about it. Not that the extract has already been boiled (it has) but when you do a partial boil of wort, you get a superthick wort that actually darkens and exhibits maillard reactions. You don't get that in a full boil or in the all-grain version. So holding back some of the extract until the end actually more closely simulates the consistency, gravity, and color of the all-grain or full boil wort. That thinking is what me start doing this about 5-6 years ago.

After I tried it by adding some of the extract at 15 minutes left in the boil, the wort was lighter in color, with a less "cooked extract" taste to it. I thought that was encouraging, so I ended up using more extract at the very end of the boil (at flame out) and less in the beginning. I never tried not using any extract in the beginning, but I often used DME at the beginning and LME at the end if the recipe used both. My extract beers turned out really good that way.

I haven't made an extract beer since late 2006 or so, but I took careful notes of the results and do remember the difference in the quality. My late extract addition beers were more like a typical commercial beer without as much darkening and with a better less extract-y flavor.

I think some homebrew stores may not be as open to change as some others. I believe it's Northern Brewer who has their instructions in some of the kits for adding about 1/2 of the extract near the end of the boil.

It's worth a try, just to see if someone likes the results better or not. There is no downside at all, except that getting DME to dissolve in hot wort at the end can be a PITA.

Keep in mind that there is really one reason to boil an extract beer for an hour- to maximize hops utilization. Since the extract has been processed already, there would be nothing "magical" that would happen to the extract in boiling it. In AG brewing, the boil is necessary to kill bacteria, reduce volume, get a hot break, evaporate SMM (DMS precursors), and so on. None of that is necessary with extract.

 

[Sluggoid]

I agree with what yooper said. If I'm brewing an extract brew that is on the lighter side (pilsner, kolsch for example), I find that adding the bulk of the extract at the end of boil (about 10 minutes) creates a lighter colored wort compared to adding all the extract in the beginning. Also, adding the extract later allows you to use less hops to get the same IBU's. I also find that adding a lot of hops also throws off the color a bit.

 

[MikeWI]

So when are they going to update my Beersmith software to reflect this? It currently shows that I can get ALOT more IBUs by holding back some of my extract until 15 or 10 minutes before flame-out. Should I be ignoring that and just looking at the IBU rating it shows for adding all my extract at the beginning of the boil?

Mike

 

[dietz]

I have done 4 batches doing late addition, I tried "early addition" yesterday and I don't think I'll do it again. My biggest problem is that I have a 7 gallon kettle. 6 gallons of water and 8# of LME brings things VERY close to the top of pot, got my first boilover. The wort is also noticibly darker, I hope the flavor isn't affected too much.

 

[StusBrew]

I made an American Stout from recipe I got from BYO. Went to Bader's brewing to get ingredients. Told them what I wanted to do. Modified some things for me. Tasted fine. But used a little DME (1 lb.), 2 cans of LME, and some steeped grains. They suggested tossing in half the DME at first (partially to help break up clumps of DME I think) along with first additions of hops. Last 10 -15 minutes add rest of DME. Turn off heat, stir in the LME for 10 minutes after flameout. Coudn't hurt to try. I had asked all kinds of questions in relation to what I also heard about not adding LME until later in boil or even no-boil addition of LME

 

[ryno84]

I hate to say it but the guy at MB was totally wrong. Check out this article which supports Jamil/Palmer: http://baderbrewing.com/store/product.php?productid=22691&cat=396&page=1

Ironically, Bader is where I got my kit and learned to homebrew before i moved back to California. They taught me to add LME at flameout and let it sit for 10-15 minutes.

But when I recently got back into brewing, being that Morebeer is so close, i figured I would listen to them. I think i may go back to late addition like i originally was doing when I first started. I guess the old trial and error is my best bet at this point.

The logic of late addition makes sense to me, but I admit I am new at this and am learning a great deal.

 

[Turlian]

I'm just about to keg a California Common, and I did a 100% late addition. Only hops (well, plus the liquid from the steeping grains) during most of the boil. I think I added all of my LME at about 10min before flameout.

 

[JonK331]

Ironically, BaderBeer is where I got my kit and learned to homebrew before i moved back to California. They taught me to add LME at flameout and let it sit for 10-15 minutes.

But when I recently got back into brewing, being that Morebeer is so close, i figured I would listen to them. I think i may go back to late addition like i originally was doing when I first started. I guess the old trial and error is my best bet at this point.

The logic of late addition makes sense to me, but I admit I am new at this and am learning a great deal.

MB has been my shop for years. It totally depends on who you talk to. What's also ironic is how connected MB is to the Brew Network and some of them are still teaching old methods.

 

[Indianhead_Brewer]

I'm just about to keg a California Common, and I did a 100% late addition. Only hops (well, plus the liquid from the steeping grains) during most of the boil. I think I added all of my LME at about 10min before flameout.

Did you end up adjusting your hopping rate/schedule at all for your Common? The only reason I ask is that I was just entering my recipe into Brewtarget and it has an option for "normal" vs. "late addition" of fermentables to the wort and all I can say is wow! By just changing my extract additions around it made a huge difference in calculated IBUs of my boil. By just changing my Gold Malt Syrup addition around (from 60 min full boil to adding at flameout) it more than doubled my calculated IBUs (from 30.7 to 63.5).

 

[HopHead73]

Did you end up adjusting your hopping rate/schedule at all for your Common? The only reason I ask is that I was just entering my recipe into Brewtarget and it has an option for "normal" vs. "late addition" of fermentables to the wort and all I can say is wow! By just changing my extract additions around it made a huge difference in calculated IBUs of my boil. By just changing my Gold Malt Syrup addition around (from 60 min full boil to adding at flameout) it more than doubled my calculated IBUs (from 30.7 to 63.5).

that is correct. As Yooper stated before, you get greater hop utilization with a lower gravity wort during the boil.
So if you are adding the majority of your extract as a late addition then you would have a lower gravity during the boil, meaning you will need less hops to reach your desired IBU.

If you are using Beersmith, there is a box under the Malt Extract for late addition. I contacted Beersmith and they assured me that have modified their software to account for the lower gravity with a late addition to account for hop utilization. Their "bitterness adjustment" tool will help even more in reaching your desired IBU as you just enter the number you want and it will adjust all of your hops for you.

 

[greenthumbed]

The way I understand it and the method I try to follow is to make up your boil with a gravity of 1.040 which is aparently the gravity in which hops are best utilized. A SG of 1.040 is obtain by 1:10 ratio of DME:liquor ie. 100g/1L (.25lbs /1q). The largest posssible boil volume is best. A 60 min boil is only necessary if use a full extract recipe where bittering is necessary. If one was to use a pre-hopped kit and some late addition hops a 30 min (or less) boil is all that is needed to achieve this. The extract (kit) is then added at flame out.

This is the method I've been using for the past year since the kind folks over at http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/talk-brewing taught me that it was not necessary to boil all the extract especially the pre-hopped kits.

 

[TomBrooz]

that is correct. As Yooper stated before, you get greater hop utilization with a lower gravity wort during the boil.
So if you are adding the majority of your extract as a late addition then you would have a lower gravity during the boil, meaning you will need less hops to reach your desired IBU.
.

Yooper had in fact said that utilization was independent of boil gravity and that her source was direct communication with John Palmer.

Ah, but that has been disproven in the last couple of years. Hops utilization is independent of boil gravity, according to John Palmer and he admits that in the past in How To Brew he "got it wrong".

This question is baffling me at the moment too, I plan to do two gallon boils with one pound per gallon, using utilization data at 1.045 gravity. I don't know of any calculators that DONT correct utilization for boil gravity despite what clearly seems to be a reliable consensus that the variable is irrelevant.

My proposed solution is to calculate and execute at 1.045 where any discrepancy will be minimized.

 

[dbell525]

Is the article saying to boil everything less the LME for the 60 minute schedule and then add the LME at flame out, hold for 10 min, then cool? Or add the LME at say 50 min? I'm typically boiling my chiller at 50 min which is going to make adding LME a little tricky. Any thoughts.

 

[barneygumble]

Is the article saying to boil everything less the LME for the 60 minute schedule and then add the LME at flame out, hold for 10 min, then cool? Or add the LME at say 50 min? I'm typically boiling my chiller at 50 min which is going to make adding LME a little tricky. Any thoughts.

You dont need to boil the LME at all. Just pasteurize it. It can be done at flameout. I reduce the flame but dont remove it, then stir like hell while the swmbo slowly pours it in. When its completely incorporated and dissolved, I remove from heat and rest the wort for a few mins to insure pasteurization before chilling.

The wort chiller can get in the way. Even if you add the LME at 15 mins by removing from the heat, stirring in, returning to a boil and restarting the clock at 15 mins, it makes a huge difference in flavor and color.

Or edit: you can immerse your chiller in a bucket of sanitizer.

 

[downunder_brewer]

Not to drag up an old thread, but I've recently started late additions of LME and have been doing some reading. The method I came up with is: 15 minutes before the end of the boil, dump the LME and 1L of boiling water into a pot on the kitchen stove. After stirring to get a consistent liquid, turn on the gas and heat until 5 minutes before the end of the boil. Pause the timer, dump in the LME, bring back to a boil, then restart the timer. This way, the LME is closer to boil than just adding it cold to the kettle and you avoid scorching. Boil is regained in usually less than 5 minutes.

 

[boydster]

I keep ending up on these zombie threads today...

downunder, I think you are making too much work for yourself that way. If it works for you and you like it, great, but there really is no need to stop the boil, add the extract, and then restart the boil. That's using a lot more energy (electric, propane, or whatever you are using) for little or no apparent benefit when you compare to adding the extract at flameout. Now if you are doing this because you need an extra few minutes away from SWMBO or whatever, by all means have at it! By letting the boil stop, then stirring in the extract, and then re-boiling, you are guaranteeing the process will take longer.

 

[downunder_brewer]

I keep ending up on these zombie threads today...

downunder, I think you are making too much work for yourself that way. If it works for you and you like it, great, but there really is no need to stop the boil, add the extract, and then restart the boil. That's using a lot more energy (electric, propane, or whatever you are using) for little or no apparent benefit when you compare to adding the extract at flameout. Now if you are doing this because you need an extra few minutes away from SWMBO or whatever, by all means have at it! By letting the boil stop, then stirring in the extract, and then re-boiling, you are guaranteeing the process will take longer.

I'm not using pre-packaged tins, but bulk bins from the LHB. If you saw the way they dispense LME <shudder>, you'd boil it too. I understand pasteurization typically occurs at 180F, but I prefer to be safe. And I don't stop the boil to add the LME - I stop the timer until the kettle is back to boiling, usually less than 5 minutes. I put the LME in a separate pot from the kettle on the kitchen stove. The kettle is on a propane burner on the back deck. It may use more energy to heat the LME before addition, but it saves the "stirring like hell" to get cold LME into solution and provides a more consistent addition. So it really only adds a couple of minutes to the process.

 

[ncbrewer]

But when I did a 15 IBU beer and did a late addition of the extract (and a full boil after that), the beer was perceptibly more bitter. When I calculated it with software on the Tinseth scale, it showed the IBUs jumping for 15 to 27 IBUs and it actually tasted like that. After the beer aged a few weeks, though, it tasted like the original beer.

When I mentioned this to John Palmer, he said something like "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization."

Palmer’s statement that "Hops utilization is independent of wort gravity, but break material may impact the utilization." in response to a comment about bitterness in an extract beer seems contradictory, or at least confusing. Other recent references from BYO, Glenn Tinseth, and others who are highly qualified on the subject are also in disagreement. Here are some examples:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Hop_utilization (On website today - impact)

http://itunes.apple.com/podcast/basic-brewing-radio/id75092679 (2008 - No direct affect, but relationship)

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/3/0/4/30433c...31834041&hwt=a1babd357d2d091bbf481fb8c715d1b4 (2008 - Affect, but lower magnitude)

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/02/10/beer-bitterness-and-ibus-with-glenn-tinseth-bshb-podcast-9/ (2011 - no direct affect, but strong correlation)

e-mail from Glenn Tinseth in 2012: “There is really no question about whether alpha acid utilization is related to wort gravity.”

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/02/2...-beers-with-john-palmer-beersmith-podcast-33/ (2012 – Correlation, but not due to solubility)

http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/37-hops/867-how-can-i-get-better-hop-utilization (2012 - Correlation)

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2010 (2010 – No correlation)

http://realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html#units (2013 on website today - Correlation)

It seems to me that the jury is still out. I just hope this gets resolved soon.

 

[downunder_brewer]

I agree. Thanks for all the refs...

 

[MikeInMKE]

I've brewed an IPA partial mash twice, and both times I've added the LME right after flame-out. The jug of LME had been sitting in a sink full of hot water (max 130F out of my tap) during the last 10 minutes of the boil in order to loosen it up a bit, so even though it's pretty warm, it still aids in cooling the 200F+ degree wort.

Even after adding the cooler LME, the wort is still more than hot enough to achieve pasteurization (over 161F for over 15 seconds).