36% brewhouse efficiency...Tipped it out

[SMOKEU]

when your OG gravity makes it not worth fermenting to drink? but still then could be good kombucha!!!

I've just stocked up on DME for that.

Brew shops are not going to change their mill gap. Expecting or even asking that is a pipe dream. Some won't even run it through more than once.
The 70-72% mash efficiency you get with barley is already an indication something is off with the milling.

Either start looking for your own adjustable mill or learn how to deal with their overly coarse crush.
If you can buy bags of base malt directly from the maltster and mill your own batches, you may save enough money that repays tour mill investment. Most of us use 2 roller mills, running US$100-200.
A knock off Corona mill may run US$25 (e.g., AliExpress) and do a wonderful job with the right adjustments. Use a drill to motorize, or some other motor.

The brew shop owner says he does mill rye finer that wheat and barley. I don't know what gap but I will ask.

Use mash water calculator to estimate acid additions. I like BrunWater. Free edition is fine.
You really should measure mash pH at the end of the mash to get a valid reading. Make sure you get a representative sample. And chill it to your pH meter calibration temp or thereabout.

Or do a small 1/2 - 1 pound test mash of your grist mixture (measure each ingredient accurately), to get the real pH. Adjust your main batch acid additions accordingly. And add that test mash to your main mash, at the end.
No wort left behind!

I've set up the EZ water calculator with the water report info from the local council.

 

[bracconiere]

I've just stocked up on DME for that.

lol, komucha or doping your brew? (i'd really recomend against a calculator for ph, if you have a meter just add slowly till to reach ideal, if you don't have a meter....f'it it'll be beer....probably only be 3-5% effec. difference...how did you get your 6.3? strips or meter?)

 

[SMOKEU]

Reply

lol, komucha or doping your brew? (i'd really recomend against a calculator for ph, if you have a meter just add slowly till to reach ideal, if you don't have a meter....f'it it'll be beer....probably only be 3-5% effec. difference...how did you get your 6.3? strips or meter?)

I do like to make kombucha - I tried DME instead of sugar and it turned out to be the most awful, foul smelling, sickening thing! Never had that issue with plain sugar booch.

I have a cheap pH tester from AliExpress however, every time I use it, I check the pH of tap water as a test to make sure it's not reading anything crazy or unexpected and I have calibrated it with pH buffer solution and I have ordered more of that to test. If in doubt, I rinse the electrode with distilled water and try again.

I put some wort into a clean pot then carefully put the pot into cold water to cool it before doing a pH reading.

 

[bracconiere]

Reply


I do like to make kombucha - I tried DME instead of sugar and it turned out to be the most awful, foul smelling, sickening thing! Never had that issue with plain sugar booch.

I have a cheap pH tester from AliExpress however, every time I use it, I check the pH of tap water as a test to make sure it's not reading anything crazy or unexpected and I have calibrated it with pH buffer solution and I have ordered more of that to test. If in doubt, I rinse the electrode with distilled water and try again.

I put some wort into a clean pot then carefully put the pot into cold water to cool it before doing a pH reading.

like i said i just did a batch with raw wheat berries, my ph was 5.9, so your 6.3 isn't far off from my experience.....i adjusted, gradully just throw a pinch/palm full of epsom salt into it till it hit 5.3 at temp........with a correction of 60c....(WTF, it works) sometimes i have to add acid though.....i got 82% effec with raw wheat 33% grain bill, 0.028" gap for everything....

damn...i lost track, what is the dark stuff in post #12? it looks weird and not just like a shadow?

 

[IslandLizard]

The brew shop owner says he does mill rye finer that wheat and barley. I don't know what gap but I will ask.

Doh! Ask him to mill your wheat as if it were rye.

Or even better, mill all your malt as if it were rye... That may get you closer to the BIAB/Grainfather crush you want!

 

[SMOKEU]

damn...i lost track, what is the dark stuff in post #12? it looks weird and not just like a shadow?

Better not be a ghost! lol

I was holding the grain with 1 hand and taking a pic with the other hand while the GF was holding her phone with the flashlight on.

Doh! Ask him to mill your wheat as if it were rye.

Or even better, mill all your malt as if it were rye... That may get you closer to the BIAB/Grainfather crush you want!

I think that's the plan for next time!

 

[TheMadKing]

I really think you need to just slow down and take a deep breath and focus on changing one thing at a time, and stop getting so caught up in the details. Making beer is easy enough with simple recipes equipment and steps. You kinda seem like you're getting so wrapped around the axle about details that you're losing sight of the big picture of the basic steps of brewing.

Just remember that people have been making a form of beer for 10,000 years without any of the modern knowledge or equipment that we enjoy.

Mash pH is important, not important enough to dump a batch over. Just focus on getting your grain to convert first, then worry about a detail like pH

I would bet money your efficiency is suffering with wheat because of mechanical (flow/stirring) issues, not chemical issues. Wheat is sticky, high in protein, and notorious for causing mash issues. I just made a wheatwine with 14lb of wheat in a 22lb grain bill. I used a full lb of rice hulls, mashed for 90 minutes, stopped my recirculation every 10 mins to stir it like a wildman, and batch sparged instead of fly sparged. I hit 71% efficiency (very happy with that in a big beer).

It tastes great and is bulk aging until September. I have no idea what my mash pH was, I didn't adjust my crush from my normal barley crush (0.045"), and it all seems to have worked out ok.

 

[SMOKEU]

I went back to the brew shop and got the guy to mill the wheat on its own with the finest gap that he uses for rye.

I tried brewing the hefe today for the third time, and had the same result. The wort was flowing down the grain bed extremely fast. 3 consecutive wheat mashes down the drain.

 

[IslandLizard]

Stop dumping! Start brewing!

What was your malt bill? Volume? Expected gravity?
How long did you mash?
Gravity at end of mash?

You sure this is wheat malt, not raw wheat?
Have you followed any of the advice given above?
Have you taken a wort sample for a gravity reading after an hour? If the gravity at that point isn't anywhere near your expectations, you can always mash longer, keep agitating, stirring.
Don't recirculate too fast, that was mentioned too. Give the mash a chance to hydrate, gelatinize, and convert.

Have you done a test mash with 1/2 - 1 pound in a pot, as I outlined before?

 

[SMOKEU]

Malt bill was the same for the past 3 brews:

3kg (6.6lb) Gladfield wheat malt (yes it's malted wheat)
2kg (4.4lb) Gladfield American ale malt
200g (0.44lb) Gladfield Sour grapes malt (acid malt)
500g (1.1lb) oat hulls (that was too much, I think)
https://www.gladfieldmalt.co.nz/
OG (after boil) was expected to be 1.048 and 23L (6 gal). I only got 1.020 after a 90 minute mash + 15 minute mash out (before boil).

I've tried everything else apart from getting my own grain mill (really not cheap in NZ).

I did not do a mash test.

 

[IslandLizard]

Something is definitely wrong. Have you checked the temp of the wet mash?

Preboil gravity (wort from the mash) is always lower (and higher volume) than OG which is after boil gravity going into the fermenter.

11.4# * 36 ppg * 75% mash efficiency = 308 points
308 pts / 6 gallons (pre-boil) is 51 pts/gal = 1.051 in 6 gallons or 1.047 in 6.5 gallons.
That's around what you should be getting if the mash is working.

After boil, the OG would be 308/5 = 61 pts or 1.061, at a volume of 5 gallons.
Or 1.056 in 5.5 gallons.

 

[SMOKEU]

You're right - I mixed up pre-boil gravity with OG.

Based on the 1.020 pre-boil gravity I guessed that post-boil (OG) it would've been no more than 1.025 so I knew straight away that was a fail.

I've checked the mash temp, it seemed to be holding around 67C (152F) with no problems.

 

[RM-MN]

OG (after boil) was expected to be 1.048 and 23L (6 gal). I only got 1.020 after a 90 minute mash + 15 minute mash out (before boil).

I've tried everything else apart from getting my own grain mill (really not cheap in NZ).

How does the cost of 3 failed batches of beer compare to the cost of a Corona or Victoria style mill? Buy the mill once, spread its cost over the rest of your brewing. It will be cheap.

 

[soccerdad]

The crush looks better, but maybe still not what some of us would call "fine, BIAB crush." The point is that since every piece of grain appears to be cracked, then hot water should be able to get to it, saturate it, and extract sugars from it. 60 minutes? I don't know. 90? 120? The hydrometer will tell you.

As the Lizard man says above, there is likely something in the recipe or the process that keep you from you goals. Tell us. In detail.

 

[IslandLizard]

How does the cost of 3 failed batches of beer compare to the cost of a Corona or Victoria style mill? Buy the mill once, spread its cost over the rest of your brewing. It will be cheap.

If the milling is indeed the culprit. I have the feeling something else is being missed.

It's hard to accept you only got 1.020 where ~1.050 should be expected. Looks like you got nothing from the wheat. The latest milling looked still coarse but not useless, they're cracked, they should hydrate, gelatinize and convert, definitely with some adequate stirring.

What is your strike water volume, the water you put in the GF Robobrew when mashing?
How do you sparge?

 

[Munster51]

Have you checked your hydrometer? I dropped mine once in the tube, it did not break, but the paper moved causing all kinds of issues.

 

[TheMadKing]

Have you turned off your recirculation pump and manually stirred during the mash?

If the water was flowing through the grain quickly that is a BAD thing - I'm still putting my money on severe channelling.

 

[soccerdad]

This is just a thought. If goofy, reject it. Although the crush in your pic is a better crush, it still looks odd to me. Next time you buy, give Malteurop a try. The grow, sprout and kiln grains in NZ. You may like their product better.

 

[IslandLizard]

A local couple brewed a "wheat beer" using around 20-30% wheat malt milled on the fairly coarse roller mill at the LHBS. The wheat kernels must have fallen through the gap, gone mostly uncrushed.
Needless to say, that beer was very underwhelming, had none or very little wheat character, whatsoever.

I've mashed wheat or rye heavy grists, containing 30-50% of wheat/rye malt, in kitchen pots, kettles, buckets, coolers, etc. using my own mill and always gotten at least 80% mash efficiency. Not the 25-30% you got.
Yeah, it's gooey and lautering can be very slow, rice or oat hulls provide permeability while good stirring loosens it up. But I've never witnessed a wheat heavy mash on a GF Robobrew.

So a obtaining a good or at least suitable crush makes a big difference. But so does process. If you get a lot of channeling in your GF Robobrew basket while recirculating, extraction will suffer.

I'd also check the temp of the wort coming back from the heater and pump. Maybe it gets overheated, denaturing enzymes.

 

[SMOKEU]

How does the cost of 3 failed batches of beer compare to the cost of a Corona or Victoria style mill? Buy the mill once, spread its cost over the rest of your brewing. It will be cheap.

Probably at least double the cost of the grain. But then my time is worth something too!

What is your strike water volume, the water you put in the GF when mashing?
How do you sparge?

Strike water is 44C (111F) for the ferulic acid rest.

Strike water volume is 22L (5.8 gal). Sparge water is about half that volume.

To sparge (after mashing out) I just lift the malt pipe out of the Robobrew and slowly pour hot sparge water at 76C (168F) over the grains, then leave it for about 15 minutes to drain before squeezing the top plate to get the rest of the wort out.

Have you checked your hydrometer? I dropped mine once in the tube, it did not break, but the paper moved causing all kinds of issues.

Yes, I've tested it with water and it comes back a 1.000.

Have you turned off your recirculation pump and manually stirred during the mash?

If the water was flowing through the grain quickly that is a BAD thing - I'm still putting my money on severe channelling.

Yes, on all occasions I stopped the pump and stirred it very well and I did that 3 times during the mash.

This is just a thought. If goofy, reject it. Although the crush in your pic is a better crush, it still looks odd to me. Next time you buy, give Malteurop a try. The grow, sprout and kiln grains in NZ. You may like their product better.

Thanks I'll give them a go.

I'd also check the temp of the wort coming back from the heater and pump. Maybe it gets overheated, denaturing enzymes.

I will give that a check next time I mash. Interestingly though when I did a brew over the weekend with some kit grains it seemed to mash very well.

 

[bracconiere]

could try it without all the acidification stuff.....?.

 

[RM-MN]

Strike water is 44C (111F) for the ferulic acid rest.

How are you getting the temperature from 44C to 67C? If direct heating with recirculation you may be denaturing the enzymes before the grain gets to saccrification temperature. Try a small batch without the ferulic acid rest, just heat the water to strike temp and stir in the grains, no recirculation at all. Cover the mash tun with a coat or blanket to maintain the temp.

 

[SMOKEU]

could try it without all the acidification stuff.....?.

I guess I could, but the tap water pH is 7.7 here.

How are you getting the temperature from 44C to 67C? If direct heating with recirculation you may be denaturing the enzymes before the grain gets to saccrification temperature. Try a small batch without the ferulic acid rest, just heat the water to strike temp and stir in the grains, no recirculation at all. Cover the mash tun with a coat or blanket to maintain the temp.

I just program the Robobrew to 67C and let it get to temperature while the recirculation is going.

Next time I do all grain I'll try all that.

For now I'll just buy 2 cans of wheat LME to do an all extract brew so I can actually produce something!

 

[RM-MN]

I guess I could, but the tap water pH is 7.7 here.

The pH of the tap water is of no real consequence, it is the alkalinity (dissolved minerals) that drive the mash pH. Since you have a pH meter, brew a batch with no pH adjustment. Take a pH reading at about 15 minutes and from that decide if the next batch needs adjusting. By the time the pH has somewhat stabilized it will be too late for adjustments to have much effect on this mash.

 

[SMOKEU]

The pH of the tap water is of no real consequence, it is the alkalinity (dissolved minerals) that drive the mash pH. Since you have a pH meter, brew a batch with no pH adjustment. Take a pH reading at about 15 minutes and from that decide if the next batch needs adjusting. By the time the pH has somewhat stabilized it will be too late for adjustments to have much effect on this mash.

I usually use that quantity of acid malt as I know from previous all barley mashes that I get a pH reading of about 5.6 after 20 minutes of mashing. From what I've read wheat seems to be a little less acidic than barley.

 

[IslandLizard]

How are you getting the temperature from 44C to 67C? If direct heating with recirculation you may be denaturing the enzymes before the grain gets to saccrification temperature.

I just program the Robobrew to 67C and let it get to temperature while the recirculation is going.

Yeah, that could well be the problem. Measuring the temp of the wort at the exit can shine some light on that, although it will have cooled already on it's way up. If it's high there, it's even higher coming out of the base.

The GF Robobrew heats the wort underneath the malt pipe, right? How much wort is in there? How fast does it recirculate? There's no temp sensor there, is it?

You could probably simulate a step mash with water and used grain from a batch run before that, just to get an idea of temps during the step mash. After the step mash has been running for 5-10 minutes, lift out the malt pipe, take a reading of that water there in the bottom.

 

[SMOKEU]

Yeah, that could well be the problem. Measuring the temp of the wort at the exit can shine some light on that, although it will have cooled already on it's way up. If it's high there, it's even higher coming out of the base.

The GF heats the wort underneath the malt pipe, right? How much wort is in there? How fast does it recirculate? There's no temp sensor there, is it?

You could probably simulate a step mash with water and used grain from a batch run before that, just to get an idea of temps during the step mash. After the step mash has been running for 5-10 minutes, lift out the malt pipe, take a reading of that water there in the bottom.

I have a decent electronic meat thermometer on its way as we speak, but when I measured the wort temperature coming out of the exit with my traditional analog style temperature probes, it was a few degrees lower than the actual wort in the grain bed.

The elements on the Robobrew are on the bottom like the Grainfather. There is about 2-3L (maybe half gallon) dead space underneath the false bottom. I can recirculate "fast" or "slow" or anything inbetween but I don't have actual figures for the recirculation.

With a normal barley mash I have the valve maybe 1/3 - 1/4 open and that is enough to keep the grain bed flooded. With the wheat mashes I've had to have it fully open and even then, that's nowhere near enough to flood the grain bed.

Is there such a thing as too much oat hulls?

 

[TheMadKing]

I have a decent electronic meat thermometer on its way as we speak, but when I measured the wort temperature coming out of the exit with my traditional analog style temperature probes, it was a few degrees lower than the actual wort in the grain bed.

The elements on the Robobrew are on the bottom like the Grainfather. There is about 2-3L (maybe half gallon) dead space underneath the false bottom. I can recirculate "fast" or "slow" or anything inbetween but I don't have actual figures for the recirculation.

With a normal barley mash I have the valve maybe 1/3 - 1/4 open and that is enough to keep the grain bed flooded. With the wheat mashes I've had to have it fully open and even then, that's nowhere near enough to flood the grain bed.

Is there such a thing as too much oat hulls?

On your last question, yes actually

I have a friend with a grainfather and he experienced a massive drop in efficiency when using too much rice hulls because his sparge was way too fast.

He got the best efficiency when he had stuck sparges actually, so that tells me that there's a problem with the amount of time that the liquid is in contact with the grain in those types of systems.

Edit:
And for the love of all things Holy stop dumping batches at the first sign of trouble.

You could have made beer out of all those batches that would have been low abv, but probably still decent enough.

I made a number of beers early on where I totally missed mash perameters and they were still beer. It's very forgiving really, so don't just dump it when it's not perfect. My rule is never dump a batch until at least 1 month after kegging (or bottling) because only THEN do you know you have made something you don't enjoy drinking