30 minute hop additions?

[Willglenn]

Every time I do it I swear I'll never do it again. I just don't like 30 minute hop additions even 20 minute additions do it, by do it I mean give a harsh flavor and bitterness, think tannins. I usually stick to all of the bittering hops go in at 60 minutes and no further additions until the 5 minute or flameout marks. How 'bout you guys?

 

[Panderson1]

I remember listening to a podcast and some well know head brewer (I forget who) said it's mind boggling brewing without a 30 min addition to IPAs.

I really like the 30 min with some Columbus or Centennial. I sometimes ease off the 60 to compensate bitterness depending.

 

[day_trippr]

Given there's zero relationship between actual "tannins" and hops in wort I'm assuming the use of that word was as a synonym for "astringency".

In any case, even in the classic "back in the day IPA" methods espoused by Papazian et al I don't think there was much weight given to a literal "30 minute addition". It's kind of the hop equivalent of the "Bermuda Triangle": it's too early for flavor or aroma characters as the remaining 30 minutes of boiling will pretty well disperse those, leaving an incremental bittering addition that could have been accomplished with a slightly larger 60 minute addition to begin with...

Cheers!

 

[Willglenn]

Given there's zero relationship between actual "tannins" and hops in wort I'm assuming the use of that word was as a synonym for "astringency".

In any case, even in the classic "back in the day IPA" methods espoused by Papazian et al I don't think there was much weight given to a literal "30 minute addition". It's kind of the hop equivalent of the "Bermuda Triangle": it's too early for flavor or aroma characters as the remaining 30 minutes of boiling will pretty well disperse those, leaving an incremental bittering addition that could have been accomplished with a slightly larger 60 minute addition to begin with...

Cheers!

You assumed correctly, astringency.

 

[Jag75]

No 30 min hops for me as well.

 

[Jako]

I have gone back to 30 min additions. I just don't add as much.

 

[RM-MN]

I do a lot of 30 minute hop additions since I only boil for 30 minutes. I've read that 90% of the bittering happens in the first 30 minutes and I seem to get the bitterness I want from that. Very seldom do I get any hop flavor or aroma after a 30 minute boil.

 

[Brooothru]

Given there's zero relationship between actual "tannins" and hops in wort I'm assuming the use of that word was as a synonym for "astringency".

In any case, even in the classic "back in the day IPA" methods espoused by Papazian et al I don't think there was much weight given to a literal "30 minute addition". It's kind of the hop equivalent of the "Bermuda Triangle": it's too early for flavor or aroma characters as the remaining 30 minutes of boiling will pretty well disperse those, leaving an incremental bittering addition that could have been accomplished with a slightly larger 60 minute addition to begin with...

Cheers!

That's especially true of the more neutral bittering hops. The only reason I'd use any bittering later than :45 mins. would be if I was using a dual purpose hop and needed the isomerization for more bittering but wanted to get a unique aroma from that particular hop.

With regards to puckering astringency, I've become quite a fan of FWH. The isomerization begins occurring at sub-boiling temperatures and seems somehow smoother without losing it's bittering ability. I add the FWH as soon as mash out is done and wort heating begins, leaving them in the pot for the entire boil. I compute their IBU contribution as :75 mins for a :60 min boil. It's not exact science but comes close in accuracy without overshooting.

Brooo Brother

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I also some times do some 30 min boils with my bittering hops added in at 30 minutes...but...

The vast majority of my beers will have an initial bittering charge, and then hop additions at 15 mins or less. So while I feel like 30 minute "flavor" additions don't really add that much flavor, I do think that late boil additions add some different flavors over just all flameout or whirlpool additions.

I have limited data points myself to back this up, but I felt like when I tweaked some American IPA batches to move more hops to flameout, I lost some of the piney, resinous, herbal character that I expect in an American IPA. I feel that hops like Citra, Simcoe, and Chinook add different character at 15 minutes vs flameout or whirlpool.

At some point I would not mind doing some investigative batches to better understand flavors from 60 min vs 30 min, or 20 vs 10 vs 5 min hop additions.

I recall a blurb in Scott Janish's "The New IPA" that talked about different hop flavors from boil hops vs whirlpool hops. (Found it on page 47-48, but it is about adding Saaz at 10 min vs whirlpool...tasters liked the complexity of hops added at both 10 min and whirlpool.)

 

[Jako]

In the past I made my IPA and pales with big late hop additions to reach my "IBU". My family and friends always mentioned the smooth bitternes. Similar to what others said above.

Really depends on my goals. For some styles a more astringent bitterness can help with the dryness of a beer or help balance out a strong ABV beer.

 

[tyrub42]

I'm not a fan of most mid-boil additions. Like some others have said, if I want bitterness, I go FWH, and if I want flavor/aroma, I'll go much later. Doesn't seem like there's much benefit to mid-boil additions and they seem like an inefficient method overall. I'm sure you can make great beers with them, but I think people are generally using them less and less for those reasons. On the other side of that spectrum, I don't really get the "no boil hops" trend either but I guess people just enjoy gimmicks

 

[Pkrd]

30 minutes is usually about the time I realise I haven't sanitised my fermenter.

 

[NewJersey]

I enjoyed the days of 60/30/20/5/FO. Seemed so simple.
The last IPA I made had a good 60, small FO, large whirlpool at 165⁰ for 20 minutes, and 2 dry hops.
This is what I assume makes sense nowadays now that we know more about what happens to hops at various temperatures.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Charlie Papazian's "Palace Bitter" has a 30 minute addition. This and an Irish red I based on it, are the only recipes I brew with a 30 minute addition. But, if you add up the number of times I used that recipe, it is the most frequently brewed. Apparently I just like it. I don't have any idea what the 30 minutes deal has do do with it. The thing that is inspiring me to move away from it is the change from Stryian Goldings and the low alpha acids in the last batches of Stryian Celeia and Fuggles.

 

[Ralphie0523]

I am probably doing this all wrong, but the only beers I tend to have a 30 minute addition are my European Lagers. I find adds at 60 of Magnum and 30 with noble(ish) hops nail lagers, and with a 5 minute for my German Pils seem to work well for me. Gives a nice rounded bitterness and the right level of hop aroma.

I have the least preference for anything above about 5% Alpha at the 30 minute addition. Agree with most of the above that a 30 minute add in IPA is just a delayed 60 minute add. All subjective preference but that is my experience.

 

[Jako]

30 minutes is usually about the time I realise I haven't sanitised my fermenter.

Too relatable

 

[Jako]

Part of me thinks if some varieties change depending on how long it's boiled flavor wise. One I have noticed a large effect is Bramling cross. With a longer boil I tend to get more current flavors but if I late hop its more citrus / American hop reminiscent.

Magnum is also a good example. I used it as a whirlpool hop recently just because I didn't want a mostly full bag to stay open. I picked up lots of fresh floral flavors.

I know most compounds are more "delicate" and can boil off relatively easily leaving other compounds behind.

Lots of science and testing would be needed to really test this. But with so many variables like water chemistry and malt bill what's the point.

 

[VikeMan]

Given there's zero relationship between actual "tannins" and hops in wort I'm assuming the use of that word was as a synonym for "astringency".

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The word "tannins" can be a bit vague, but hops have significant polyphenols, including some that are often called tannins. Is there a particular compound you mean here? (I may be missing your point entirely.)

 

[Birrofilo]

I just don't like 30 minute hop additions even 20 minute additions do it, by do it I mean give a harsh flavor and bitterness

One has to keep into account that cones and pellets require different extraction times.
Pellets release in almost half the time than cones.

A 30 minutes addition if made with pellets is almost equivalent to a 60 minutes addition with cones. You get all the heavy stuff: the resins, the bitterness.

If your recipe calls for a 30 minute hop addition in cones and you use pellets, use 15 minute for a comparable effect. 30 minutes with pellets is comparable to 60 minutes with cones.

Generally speaking, cones release in 15' half the bitterness than in 60', and at 60' they have given most of what they can give. Pellets at 35' or so have given most of what they can give, and if you want half that bitterness, you should probably calculate 10' or less.

Strong, Brew Better Beer, has a table at page 66 with the cones - pellets percentage of utilization with different extraction times.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Strong, Brew Better Beer, has a table at page 66 with the cones - pellets percentage of utilization with different extraction times.

Additionally, with regard to how fast pellet hops "get to work", Basic Brewing Radio Nov 1, 2018 may be of interest.

 

[day_trippr]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.[...]

Start at the beginning...

 

[VikeMan]

Start at the beginning...

Still puzzled.

 

[BarryBrews]

OP - 90 minute hops and then whirlpool addition for 20 minutes at 160F, why would you add any in between this? Maximum bitter up front and maximum flavor and aroma below the boiling point! That leaves just the floccing addition at 15 minutes. Easier.

 

[ncbrewer]

One has to keep into account that cones and pellets require different extraction times.
Pellets release in almost half the time than cones.

A 30 minutes addition if made with pellets is almost equivalent to a 60 minutes addition with cones. You get all the heavy stuff: the resins, the bitterness.

If your recipe calls for a 30 minute hop addition in cones and you use pellets, use 15 minute for a comparable effect. 30 minutes with pellets is comparable to 60 minutes with cones.

Generally speaking, cones release in 15' half the bitterness than in 60', and at 60' they have given most of what they can give. Pellets at 35' or so have given most of what they can give, and if you want half that bitterness, you should probably calculate 10' or less.

Strong, Brew Better Beer, has a table at page 66 with the cones - pellets percentage of utilization with different extraction times.

This has me baffled. I've read that the difference between whole and pellets is not much. Brewers Friend (Hops Types Pellet Plug Leaf - Brewer's Friend) states "The fact that they are pulverized leads to approximately 10% better utilization over leaf hops". That's a big difference compared to the Brew Better Beer info. Since I'm tuned in to the Tinseth formula, I'll keep using it, but the difference between the two or more sources is troubling.

 

[Birrofilo]

This has me baffled. I've read that the difference between whole and pellets is not much. Brewers Friend (Hops Types Pellet Plug Leaf - Brewer's Friend) states "The fact that they are pulverized leads to approximately 10% better utilization over leaf hops". That's a big difference compared to the Brew Better Beer info. Since I'm tuned in to the Tinseth formula, I'll keep using it, but the difference between the two or more sources is troubling.

They are almost equivalent if you want to extract all their bitterness. A certain quantity of alpha acids is ultimately released. But pellets release it faster, which makes a difference if we talk timing boiling for partial extraction.

The OP noticed that a partial extraction (whereby you want only part of the bitterness) leads to more bitterness extraction than expected. This might be due to the non-linearity of extraction (15 minutes extract half the bitterness than 60', which means that in the first 15 minutes the extraction is three times faster than in the subsequent 45 minutes: if you throw your hops at 15' from end, rather than 60' from end, you have 50% bitterness reduction not 75% bitterness reduction) or the fact that pellets are used in a recipe which was calculated for cones, and the timing for partial extraction is different.

Basically, recipes should specify exactly what kind of hops are to be used if they specify partial extraction (late additions).

PS Even the idea that pellets give 10% more bitterness is probably due to the fact that cones after 60' boiling have not given all their bitterness, if you boil them for 90' you add another 10%. Pellets, as they relase the bitterness faster, have given all they have to give much before 60'. People don't normally boil for more than 60' (and if they do, normally they throw the hops at 60' not 90') and this is probably why pellets are said to allow you more extraction, because that's compared to the standard 60' boiling for cones.

 

[bwible]

For IPA’s (and to clarify - by IPA I mean West Coast IPA, the clear beer kind - I do not make New England anything) I do multiple additions. Typically something like 60, 45, 30, 15, knockout or 60, 40, 20, 10, knockout.

Yes, you can use larger 60 min additions in place of the middle additions and that does make some sense from an economic point of view since the longer you boil the hop the more bitterness you extract. But there’s also variety to consider as every beer is not a single hop beer. Maybe you’d use Nugget or Perle at 60, Centennial at 45, Cascade at 30 and 15, and Simcoe or Citra at knockout, going old school.

This is where the trend with NEIPA has gone to the extreme - eliminating not only the middle additions but all the bittering additions. People just throw in all the hops at the end of the boil in one massive addition now and steep for whatever time they use - 30 min or whatever - before they cool the beer. And I’m not a fan of that.

Dogfish Head makes a 60 min IPA, a 90 min IPA and a 120 min IPA - where they add hops in very small additions EVERY MINUTE. Think about that.

 

[BarryBrews]

EVERY MINUTE. Think about that.

Hummm....what is the advantage? Save Your Hops for Post-Boil - Brew Your Own This article seems typical of most of the information I've come across. Dogfish Head makes awesome IPA's, but I always thought the "every minute" as hype, like the "60 min" is really 6% ABV & 60 IBUs. Marketing stuff.

 

[ncbrewer]

They are almost equivalent if you want to extract all their bitterness. A certain quantity of alpha acids is ultimately released. But pellets release it faster, which makes a difference if we talk timing boiling for partial extraction.

Yes, that could explain the difference. If so, we would need a different formula for calculating bitterness for pellet vs cone hops - possibly just changing the time factor. I've always used the Tenseth formula, and it seems to hold for any combination of quantity, time, and temperature. (I use this for hop stands at lower temperatures: An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... different formula for calculating bitterness for pellet vs cone hops

BBR Nov 1, 2018 (check the PDF)? @dmtaylor 's estimation equation?

 

[dmtaylor]

BBR Nov 1, 2018 (check the PDF)? @dmtaylor 's estimation equation?

I have an estimation equation I turned over to James Spencer, but to my knowledge it's never been mentioned or listed on BBR. He emailed me back but to be honest did not seem too excited about mine. My equation assumes pellets, or else I'd add 10% for whole hops, same as most other people have been doing for decades. I use pellets and whole hops interchangeably using this method and really never had any problems doing so.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have an estimation equation

Thanks. I knew there are a couple of newer equations out there, just to this lazy this time around to find my notes (yet again).

we would need a different formula for calculating bitterness

So the equations are 'out there'.

The next question might be (assuming it matters): how to get people to use them?

 

[couchsending]

I did a 60 minute addition in an “IPA” of sorts last night for the first time in maybe 6 months (and that’s a lot of brews). Been doing my first addition at 30, then one at 10 or 5, then a WP at 180.

My theory is you can get more flavor impact by adding more hops at 30 to hit target bitterness than less hops at 60. There are certain compounds in hops that benefit from being boiled. The 3MH thiol increases during the boil but the difference between 30 and 60 is not very big. So why not at more at 30 to maximize thiol content in the wort? Plus you’re not boiling vegetal material for as long as if you added the hops at FW, 90, 60, etc.

You can also lower your boil pH to extract less bitterness without impacting the flavor/aroma extraction. Great way to add depth of flavor to a beer without adding a ton more bitterness.