3 Phase 208V Control Panel for 3 or 4 Elements

SSBrew - 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
The building I am looking at has a 50 amp 208v 3 phase receptacle. It would be super convenient and much cheaper if I could somehow modify my original plan for 50 amps. I wouldn't have to hard-wire my panel to the main breaker which results in an electrician and permit pulling. I could just simply hook my panel up to the wall with a cable.


With the Delta configuration in this schematic, what is the most wattage I can pull to go with a 50 amp panel? To stay under the 80% I would need to be pulling 40 amps max right? And right now with 5500 watt 208v elements I would be pulling 46 amps, which would be over the 80% but theoretically work on a 50 amp main breaker. I could buy 5000 watt 208v elements to get down from 16,500 watts to 15,000 watts. With those elements, what would my draw be and could that work?

I am assuming I probably would have to eliminate pumps from the panel to reduce the potential amperage which is fine. They are 3/4hp pumps with VFD on carts so I could just run them off another circuit in the building. Having switches for pumps on the panel is sort of redundant anyway since I'll already be controlling the pumps with the vfd to regulate pump speed.

I know if I went with lower wattage elements to get to 40 amps (instead for the 5500's drawing 46) that I would be sacrificing speed and my brew days would be longer, but it may be worth it to save a couple thousand bucks on permits and electricians. I guess it would depend on how much slower it would take to get from 150f to 212f with the lower wattage.

Any advice from you guys would be much appreciated.
 
With a 50 amp breaker you should be able to pull 50 amps all day long. That means the current in each leg (heater) would be 50/sqrt(3) = 28.9 amps which, at 208 V amounts to just 6 kW. With 5500 watt elements you would be pulling, thus 5500*28.9/6000= 26.5 Amps in each leg of the delta and your line currents would be 26.5*sqrt(3) = 45.9 amps which gives you 9% margin on the breaker.
 
nice. So then I can install a flanged male receptacle and use a 50a 3py power cable to connect to that 50a receptacle in the building. And on the inside of the panel I can go from the receptacle to the DIN breakers.

Does that sound like I can do that without any issues? The only issue I see is tripping the main breaker if I were powering the kettle and running both pumps (and the pumps were drawing over 4 amps).

31M9inuQw0L._AA160_.jpg
 
You need to check on the trip characteristics of the breaker you have installed (or will be installing). There are many flavors and you need to be sure that you have one that will trip quickly on a big overload (magnetic trip) but slowly in the case of slight overload (thermal trip). I don't guess I would feel right about saying "go ahead and run at 52 amps because the breaker won't trip for an hour" but most of the pumps we use, even in pretty big systems, tend to be fractional horsepower and thus draw well less than an amp. You can also, of course, get the total load on any one phase down by distributing the pumps across the phases. Then even if they drew a couple of amps each you would still be under 50 amps/phase.

The bigger problem I see with the pumps is that you have a three wire receptacle with no neutral available. To hook things up per the drawing you posted earlier you would have to run a 5 wire (3 phases, neutral and ground) to the receptacle which would have to have 5 pins, (NEMA L21-50) one for each of the phases, for the neutral and for ground. I understand that a major goal is to avoid having to pull new wire or install new outlets. It would, perhaps, be easier to power the pumps (and controls) from a separate 120 V single phase circuit.

Were you to take that route you would still want to use something like NEMA 14-50 for the 3ø outlet/plug so that your chassis is grounded whether the control circuit power is plugged in or not.

Keep in mind that I am not an electrician. I am an EE that used to design 3ø transformers many years ago. The difference between an electrician and an EE is that the latter knows how it works, why it works and how to make it work whereas the electrician knows how to install it so there won't be a fire or other hazzard. I strongly advise consulting a competent electrician on this.
 
That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.

You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.


Like this right.....?
3629.jpg
 
crtracy said:
That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.
Click to expand...
Make it an L21-50.

crtracy said:
You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.
Click to expand...

I thought you were talking the tiny 1/25 HP pumps (I use these on a 55 gal system). 3/4 HP at 120V is going to be something like 5 amps. That would be pushing things for sure. A separate circuit for them seems like a really good idea.


crtracy said:
Like this right.....?
Click to expand...
Yep.
 
Thinking a bit more about your problem two things came to mind

1) The circuit breaker size. You are fine (to the NECs way of thinking) in going to the full rating of the breaker as long as the load is intermittent. Intermittent is defined as being on continuously for less than 3 hrs. If you are boiling for 2 hrs and then shutting down then you have an intermittent load and are fine as far as NEC considerations apply. You might want to give this some thought i.e. as to how long you think the HLT load plus boil load will be on. If the sum of the HLT and kettle on times is greater than 3 hrs then you have a continuous load and should size the breaker to 125% of that load. If the kettle and HLT on times are over 3 hrs but there is a 5 minute break when neither is on then you have an intermittent load, technically, but, in sizing for 100% are definitely not in the spirit of things. The object here is not to find ways around the code but to be safe.

There are breakers rated 100% for continuous loads but there are some additional requirements with respect to the temperature ratings of the wiring used and the connected equipment. Again, I would advise consulting a pro.

2)Related to this is that the drawing shows HLT and kettle connected to the same panel and thus the same source of AC. If both kettle and HLT heaters were energized then clearly there would be an overcurrent situation and the breaker would trip (we hope). I see that there is a SPDT switch which prevents control signal from going to both sets of SSRs but keep in mind that SSRs tend to fail open. If one does and there is overcurrent then the breaker should protect things but if you can prevent that from ever happening by, for example, feeding the HLT from a separate circuit from the panel or using contactors in series with the SSR's then you are not relying on the breaker alone.

Further to this is that in my experience you want the HLT on line continuously throughout the brew. Initially it is used to heat strike water, then water for infusions, then water for sparge, then makeup water for boil loss, then hot water for pushing the last of the wort through the chiller and finally for rinsing the chiller. I know that having to shut the HLT down when the kettle is operating would not work for me. As such I would, in your situation, give considerable thought to separating the HLT from the kettle power supply. You may have thought this through and come up with procedures that never require hot water during boil in which case you can dismiss this second set of remarks.
 
Sound advice and thought ajdelange.

One other piece of this puzzle is that more-than-likely neither pot will be at 100% duty cycle simultaneously.

My thoughts are after the HLT heats to ~170, the duty cycle may be 25% or lower.
Likewise, the kettle will not be at 100% after a rolling boil is met. Not having direct experience with the OP's equipment nor wattage, I'd guess it would be less than 50% duty cycle too.

Soooooo, along with your thinking, if we can 'interlock' the two controllers where neither can be at 100% output together, sounds like we're Golden.

The "Below setpoint" alarm output comes to mind.

'da Kid

ajdelange said:
Thinking a bit more about your problem two things came to mind

1) The circuit breaker size. You are fine (to the NECs way of thinking) in going to the full rating of the breaker as long as the load is intermittent. Intermittent is defined as being on continuously for less than 3 hrs. If you are boiling for 2 hrs and then shutting down then you have an intermittent load and are fine as far as NEC considerations apply. You might want to give this some thought i.e. as to how long you think the HLT load plus boil load will be on. If the sum of the HLT and kettle on times is greater than 3 hrs then you have a continuous load and should size the breaker to 125% of that load. If the kettle and HLT on times are over 3 hrs but there is a 5 minute break when neither is on then you have an intermittent load, technically, but, in sizing for 100% are definitely not in the spirit of things. The object here is not to find ways around the code but to be safe.

There are breakers rated 100% for continuous loads but there are some additional requirements with respect to the temperature ratings of the wiring used and the connected equipment. Again, I would advise consulting a pro.

2)Related to this is that the drawing shows HLT and kettle connected to the same panel and thus the same source of AC. If both kettle and HLT heaters were energized then clearly there would be an overcurrent situation and the breaker would trip (we hope). I see that there is a SPDT switch which prevents control signal from going to both sets of SSRs but keep in mind that SSRs tend to fail open. If one does and there is overcurrent then the breaker should protect things but if you can prevent that from ever happening by, for example, feeding the HLT from a separate circuit from the panel or using contactors in series with the SSR's then you are not relying on the breaker alone.

Further to this is that in my experience you want the HLT on line continuously throughout the brew. Initially it is used to heat strike water, then water for infusions, then water for sparge, then makeup water for boil loss, then hot water for pushing the last of the wort through the chiller and finally for rinsing the chiller. I know that having to shut the HLT down when the kettle is operating would not work for me. As such I would, in your situation, give considerable thought to separating the HLT from the kettle power supply. You may have thought this through and come up with procedures that never require hot water during boil in which case you can dismiss this second set of remarks.
Click to expand...
 
Chris,
This connector implies (but not absolutely true) that there is a neutral wire "W" with the 208 3ph.
Which is a great thing.

'da Kid

crtracy said:
That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.

You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.


Like this right.....?
3629.jpg
Click to expand...
 
The10mmKid said:
One other piece of this puzzle is that more-than-likely neither pot will be at 100% duty cycle simultaneously.
Click to expand...
True enough but the code says that a breaker should be rated for 100% of the intermittent loads connected to it plus 125% of the continuous load. Here we have two intermittent loads of 46 amps each so the breaker size should be 92 (100) amps.

The panels in my house have 200 amp breakers. I have never seen a current of more than 50 - 60 amps (not that I'm out there staring at the meters 24/7) and usually its a lot less than that. But if I could find the builder's calculations I'll bet that I'd find that his estimate (from those formulas they use based on square footage etc.) of 1*intermittent + 1.25*continuous was close to 200 amps. That's how the breaker was chosen.


As for the connecter my understanding is that the 'W' stands for 'white' i.e. the neutral wire and 'G' for 'green' or 'ground'. I'm guessing that the other terminals are not labeled as to color because the colors for the three phases vary from place to place and the order in which they are connected depends on the rotation you want.
 
Thanks guys this insight is golden. It is helping me consider all the possibilities before getting started.

Here is my thinking:

In an ideal situation, I would be able to run both the HLT and BK so I could double batch and CIP. I also would love a 4th element in each kettle for faster ramping. But in order for me to make all that happen, I would have to hardwire my brew panel, modify the main breaker, and run larger wire from the main to the panel. That makes things very costly and gets the city involved more than I want them to be. I won't be double batching for a long time, at which point I should be generating enough cash flow to upgrade my panel. This single batch process should last me quite awhile before I grow out of it. So in short, this panel is compromising a few things in order to keep the cost down and the amps under 50. Since the building already has a 50 amp 3 phase 5 wire outlet (in the perfect spot to brew), I'm hoping I can make it work on the cheap.

So here is what I was thinking for process: I have already built a smaller single element panel for my single tier 15G setup. This will become my CIP cart and I can run it on another circuit if I need to clean tanks while my brewhouse panel is active.

My HLT is only needed up until the sparge. Once my elements in the BK are covered, I can flip the switch over to the BK to begin ramping to boil. I won't need my HLT powered because it should hold temps well enough for the last 20-30 minutes of sparging. (I do this on my homebrew setup and it works great.)

My pumps are mounted on Dolly's with a VFD and I can just plug them into the wall (another circuit) so I never have to worry about overloading the panel circuit. I'll be controlling the flow on the vfd's anyway so a switch on the brew panel just sort of becomes redundant.

P-J originally drew this diagram up without contactors because he thought they were really spendy but I found some affordable 3py contactors so I definitely plan to modify this schematic to include contactors inline with the SSR's. This will prevent leakage but also allow me to unplug elements from a dead kettle for cleaning while the other is hot.

I think I have considered everything but if you guys think of a better way let me know your thoughts.
 
crtracy said:
Thanks guys this insight is golden. It is helping me consider all the possibilities before getting started.

Here is my thinking:

In an ideal situation, I would be able to run both the HLT and BK so I could double batch and CIP. I also would love a 4th element in each kettle for faster ramping. But in order for me to make all that happen, I would have to hardwire my brew panel, modify the main breaker, and run larger wire from the main to the panel. That makes things very costly and gets the city involved more than I want them to be. I won't be double batching for a long time, at which point I should be generating enough cash flow to upgrade my panel. This single batch process should last me quite awhile before I grow out of it. So in short, this panel is compromising a few things in order to keep the cost down and the amps under 50. Since the building already has a 50 amp 3 phase 5 wire outlet (in the perfect spot to brew), I'm hoping I can make it work on the cheap.

So here is what I was thinking for process: I have already built a smaller single element panel for my single tier 15G setup. This will become my CIP cart and I can run it on another circuit if I need to clean tanks while my brewhouse panel is active.

My HLT is only needed up until the sparge. Once my elements in the BK are covered, I can flip the switch over to the BK to begin ramping to boil. I won't need my HLT powered because it should hold temps well enough for the last 20-30 minutes of sparging. (I do this on my homebrew setup and it works great.)

My pumps are mounted on Dolly's with a VFD and I can just plug them into the wall (another circuit) so I never have to worry about overloading the panel circuit. I'll be controlling the flow on the vfd's anyway so a switch on the brew panel just sort of becomes redundant.

P-J originally drew this diagram up without contactors because he thought they were really spendy but I found some affordable 3py contactors so I definitely plan to modify this schematic to include contactors inline with the SSR's. This will prevent leakage but also allow me to unplug elements from a dead kettle for cleaning while the other is hot.

I think I have considered everything but if you guys think of a better way let me know your thoughts.
Click to expand...

If needed, send me the details and a link for the contactors and I'll modify the diagram for you to include them. Plus any other changes that you might need or want.

P-J
 
Contactors should solve the SSR fail problem. You might want to consider going belt and suspenders by ordering ones with NC auxiliary contacts. This contact from contactor 1 goes in series with the coil on contactor 2. If contactor 1 is energized its auxiliary contact is open and contactor 2 cannot be energized.
 
P-J said:
If needed, send me the details and a link for the contactors and I'll modify the diagram for you to include them. Plus any other changes that you might need or want.

P-J
Click to expand...
P-J,

I am new to this thread but was hoping I could get a clear copy of your diagram updated on this 208v 3-phase element build. It seems very similar to what I am trying to accomplish.

Much appreciated.
 
P-J, Did you ever have an opportunity to modify the schematics to add the contactors? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...p/SC-E3-110VAC

I've spent these last few months building my keg washer and grain mill but I finally have all the parts for this control panel except for the heat sinks and I'm pretty much ready to get this thing built. I have been debating on heat sinks with fans for internal mounting or going with larger ones outside of the panel so I can have a more water resistant build. Do you guys have any recommendations?

JSDco, I have the full size version of the schematics that PJ has designed up to this point if you would like them. Just shoot me your email. The design is without contactors. Hopefully P-J will reply and has updated the schematic to add the contactors.
 
JSDco said:
P-J,

I am new to this thread but was hoping I could get a clear copy of your diagram updated on this 208v 3-phase element build. It seems very similar to what I am trying to accomplish.

Much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Is this you Doc Jones by any chance?
 
Wow P-J thank you. You are a legend. I am going to make a quick decision on the heat sinks and get started on this panel in a few weeks. I will post my progress for you guys.

Here is the updated schematic with contactors.

3 Phase Schematic.jpg
 
crtracy said:
Wow P-J thank you. You are a legend. I am going to make a quick decision on the heat sinks and get started on this panel in a few weeks. I will post my progress for you guys.

Here is the updated schematic with contactors.
Click to expand...
Thanks so very much for posting the full scale image so that others could see the adventure. This helps me think that I am also helping others on this forum with ideas about brew systems..

Thanks!! Oh.. and I'm really pleased that I could help you in your adventure.

Wishing you the best and hope your system is VERY successful.!

P-J

Edit:
PS: An after thought:
Here is the link to the contactors:
http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/Fuji_Contactors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC
 
P-J said:
It could but it will require some very serious wiring diagram changes.

See if you can figure it out.

P-J
Click to expand...

I spoke before I looked deeper into it. At first glance it looked fine, but then realized it needs work.

Will report back with what I think is right.
 
P-J said:
It could but it will require some very serious wiring diagram changes.

See if you can figure it out.

P-J
Click to expand...

P-J, Why the "Serious wiring diagram changes"?

Most 240V/3PH Delta xFormers have two legs measuring 120V-Neutral (X0).
Better make sure you pick the right two though:
304ecmCQfig2.jpg


(Ignore the circuit breaker info)

'da Kid
 
ElevenBrewCo said:
I spoke before I looked deeper into it. At first glance it looked fine, but then realized it needs work.

Will report back with what I think is right.
Click to expand...

A slightly simplified take on the process.
It helps if you look at the wiring as 2 sections, the control circuitry and the heater element circuitry.The link between to two circuits in a contactor system is indirect. The low voltage power to the SSR's is the switch that activates the high voltage circuit. It is difficult to visualize from a drawing, but after construction it becomes very apparent. And with the wealth of information that P-J has provided you can build almost any configuration you need.

I took P-J's 208 diagram and and adapted it for a 5BBL system that uses only a BK with 3 -9kW elements and RIMs using a single 5kW. In place of an HLT a modified commercial direct hot water heater capable of 160 degrees. The hot water was needed in the brewery anyway and we simply added a mixing valve to reduce water temp to plumbing system.

Regardless P-J saved many hours of work for me as I tend to proto-type, then create a diagram - then do the final build. I am a tinkerer by habit.
Thanks, P-J
 
Hi all, a Dutch brewer here. Our country has tbe option to have 3 phase power on 220v in your house as our code dictates that you van legally only have a 25A breaker...on the flip side GFCI is mandatory.

Anyway long story short, given the awefull weather here and cleaning out the basement it is time to go electric on a bigger scale which includes a 5500 watt element and indeed...5500 / 220 is exactly 25A so I need to go three phase.

Electric brewing is not as advanced here, beyond the GF etc., while my goal is to set up a 3v HERMS. So I am wondering if any of you has the final schematic of PJ (god he is missed) and/or a parts list laying around to help me with the construction. The plumbing seems to be straight forward (and hard to kill yourself with) but I really want to approach this wiring with some respect.

Sorry for kicking up an old topic, I have gone through all the older posts but haven't really found what I am looking for...yet.

In amy case: Happy brewing
 

Similar threads

Sean_SA
Connecting a single phase control panel to a 3 phase power supply
Replies
2
Views
697
bruce_the_loon
bruce_the_loon
kotamoore23
120/240v DIY PID Controller Help
Replies
17
Views
1K
whoaru99
W
B
eBIAB PID Controller Wiring Diagram - Feedback Requested
Replies
14
Views
1K
beerisambrosia
B
Nick Poggetti
Heating Element Scorching - Long boils w/ High OG Wort
Replies
25
Views
1K
Nick Poggetti
Nick Poggetti
David Coy
Power 1 and/or 2 Anvil Foundries at 240 from a 30 amp 240 spa panel
Replies
4
Views
608
David Coy
David Coy
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top