3 Phase 208V Control Panel for 3 or 4 Elements

[P-J]

No - two 30amp contactors work work fine.

Here's a 50amp three pole for $64 with a 110V coil.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-110VAC

Here's a 65amp three pole for $72

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC

What ever.
Maybe you should do a design and wiring diagram for the setup.
Oh well.. I did try at least. I should know better..

Geeze... A lot of mind jumps, work and planning for a diagram??

Grumble.......

 

[atoughram]

What ever.
Maybe you should do a design and wiring diagram for the setup.
Grumble.......

There's no way I could fit into your shoes PJ - I dont have the time to provide everyone with wiring diagrams/schematics as you do - it's a much appreciated job - Thank You.

I'll be happy to assist whenever possible though - and give my opinions whenever I think I should. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers and I apologize if I did. This is one system though that probably needs a e-stop or at least a switch to turn off all the 3 phase. I hate to hot plug 3 phase, it's not safe.

 

[P-J]

...
This is one system though that probably needs a e-stop or at least a switch to turn off all the 3 phase. I hate to hot plug 3 phase, it's not safe.

A switch to turn it all off exists in the mains breaker panel or sub panel.

E-Stop is another different issue IMHO. One can be easily set up as long as the source power is delivered through a GFCI circiut breaker in the mains panel or a sub panel. (IF one such item (GFCI breaker) exists for 208V 3 phase.) I do not know and am not willing to invest another boat load of hours trying to find out.

P-J

 

[crtracy]

When I first looked around, I saw some outrageous prices on contactors. Good eyes atoughram finding some killer deals on contactors. It doesn't seem like it would be too impossible to incorporate the contactor(s) and an estop. I assume 1 60a is better than 2 30's at that price and for simplicity right? What are your thoughts P-J?

P-J you were right! Why would I need an alarm on the mash or bk!? I wasn't thinking straight. I suppose it would be nice to know when I'm hitting the 200's to keep an eye out for the hot break but I'm not sure if an alarm is useful even then.

Don't worry P-J your work is not in vain. I'll post the build to this thread all the way through.

 

[P-J]

When I first looked around, I saw some outrageous prices on contactors. Good eyes atoughram finding some killer deals on contactors. It doesn't seem like it would be too impossible to incorporate the contactor(s) and an estop. I assume 1 60a is better than 2 30's at that price and for simplicity right? What are your thoughts P-J?

P-J you were right! Why would I need an alarm on the mash or bk!? I wasn't thinking straight. I suppose it would be nice to know when I'm hitting the 200's to keep an eye out for the hot break but I'm not sure if an alarm is useful even then.

Don't worry P-J your work is not in vain. I'll post the build to this thread all the way through.

Chris,

I spent some time today redrawing the diagram to include the alarm circuit for the HLT and BOIL kettles. Let me know if you want me to mail them to you.

Paul

 

[P-J]

Chris,

I spent some time today redrawing the diagram to include the alarm circuit for the HLT and BOIL kettles. Let me know if you want me to mail them to you.

Paul

Emailed to you about an hour ago. Hope you got them ok.

P-J
(Also Paul)

 

[crtracy]

Here is PJ's updated Schematic alarming all the PID's. Thanks PJ! I am going to order everything up soon and I'll post progress pics along the way.

 

[P-J]

crtracy,

It has been a while. Any progress on your build?

Thanks,

P-J

 

[crtracy]

Sorry I missed this comment somehow. I haven't checked this thread for awhile.

I purchased all the parts but I have not assembled it because I still haven't made up my mind on a few things in the brew process.

At the same time I picked up the parts for this panel, I built a 2 element panel for my 15 gallon system that will eventually become my CIP/Keg wash stand. I was hoping that building this first would make me more confident with a 3 phase panel. The major difference in the two is that the small panel doesn't have a DIN breaker. I also built it with Contactors like theelectricbrewerydotcom design. (I didn't include the amp/volt meters on my panel)

I think I may add contactors to this panel so that if I want, I can unplug a kettle mid brew for cleaning. I just have to figure out the easiest way to do that on a 6 element panel. I think I should be able to get away with just 2 contactors instead of 6 but I can't seem to visualize it.

Once I figure all this out I will start the build and post pics.

 

[crtracy]

 

[crtracy]

The building I am looking at has a 50 amp 208v 3 phase receptacle. It would be super convenient and much cheaper if I could somehow modify my original plan for 50 amps. I wouldn't have to hard-wire my panel to the main breaker which results in an electrician and permit pulling. I could just simply hook my panel up to the wall with a cable.


With the Delta configuration in this schematic, what is the most wattage I can pull to go with a 50 amp panel? To stay under the 80% I would need to be pulling 40 amps max right? And right now with 5500 watt 208v elements I would be pulling 46 amps, which would be over the 80% but theoretically work on a 50 amp main breaker. I could buy 5000 watt 208v elements to get down from 16,500 watts to 15,000 watts. With those elements, what would my draw be and could that work?

I am assuming I probably would have to eliminate pumps from the panel to reduce the potential amperage which is fine. They are 3/4hp pumps with VFD on carts so I could just run them off another circuit in the building. Having switches for pumps on the panel is sort of redundant anyway since I'll already be controlling the pumps with the vfd to regulate pump speed.

I know if I went with lower wattage elements to get to 40 amps (instead for the 5500's drawing 46) that I would be sacrificing speed and my brew days would be longer, but it may be worth it to save a couple thousand bucks on permits and electricians. I guess it would depend on how much slower it would take to get from 150f to 212f with the lower wattage.

Any advice from you guys would be much appreciated.

 

[The10mmKid]

Plug your values into one of these calculators Chris:

http://www.watlow.com/reference/tools/3phase.cfm

'da Kid

 

[ajdelange]

With a 50 amp breaker you should be able to pull 50 amps all day long. That means the current in each leg (heater) would be 50/sqrt(3) = 28.9 amps which, at 208 V amounts to just 6 kW. With 5500 watt elements you would be pulling, thus 5500*28.9/6000= 26.5 Amps in each leg of the delta and your line currents would be 26.5*sqrt(3) = 45.9 amps which gives you 9% margin on the breaker.

 

[crtracy]

nice. So then I can install a flanged male receptacle and use a 50a 3py power cable to connect to that 50a receptacle in the building. And on the inside of the panel I can go from the receptacle to the DIN breakers.

Does that sound like I can do that without any issues? The only issue I see is tripping the main breaker if I were powering the kettle and running both pumps (and the pumps were drawing over 4 amps).

 

[ajdelange]

You need to check on the trip characteristics of the breaker you have installed (or will be installing). There are many flavors and you need to be sure that you have one that will trip quickly on a big overload (magnetic trip) but slowly in the case of slight overload (thermal trip). I don't guess I would feel right about saying "go ahead and run at 52 amps because the breaker won't trip for an hour" but most of the pumps we use, even in pretty big systems, tend to be fractional horsepower and thus draw well less than an amp. You can also, of course, get the total load on any one phase down by distributing the pumps across the phases. Then even if they drew a couple of amps each you would still be under 50 amps/phase.

The bigger problem I see with the pumps is that you have a three wire receptacle with no neutral available. To hook things up per the drawing you posted earlier you would have to run a 5 wire (3 phases, neutral and ground) to the receptacle which would have to have 5 pins, (NEMA L21-50) one for each of the phases, for the neutral and for ground. I understand that a major goal is to avoid having to pull new wire or install new outlets. It would, perhaps, be easier to power the pumps (and controls) from a separate 120 V single phase circuit.

Were you to take that route you would still want to use something like NEMA 14-50 for the 3ø outlet/plug so that your chassis is grounded whether the control circuit power is plugged in or not.

Keep in mind that I am not an electrician. I am an EE that used to design 3ø transformers many years ago. The difference between an electrician and an EE is that the latter knows how it works, why it works and how to make it work whereas the electrician knows how to install it so there won't be a fire or other hazzard. I strongly advise consulting a competent electrician on this.

 

[crtracy]

That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.

You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.


Like this right.....?

 

[ajdelange]

That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.

Make it an L21-50.

You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.

I thought you were talking the tiny 1/25 HP pumps (I use these on a 55 gal system). 3/4 HP at 120V is going to be something like 5 amps. That would be pushing things for sure. A separate circuit for them seems like a really good idea.

Like this right.....?

Yep.

 

[ajdelange]

Thinking a bit more about your problem two things came to mind

1) The circuit breaker size. You are fine (to the NECs way of thinking) in going to the full rating of the breaker as long as the load is intermittent. Intermittent is defined as being on continuously for less than 3 hrs. If you are boiling for 2 hrs and then shutting down then you have an intermittent load and are fine as far as NEC considerations apply. You might want to give this some thought i.e. as to how long you think the HLT load plus boil load will be on. If the sum of the HLT and kettle on times is greater than 3 hrs then you have a continuous load and should size the breaker to 125% of that load. If the kettle and HLT on times are over 3 hrs but there is a 5 minute break when neither is on then you have an intermittent load, technically, but, in sizing for 100% are definitely not in the spirit of things. The object here is not to find ways around the code but to be safe.

There are breakers rated 100% for continuous loads but there are some additional requirements with respect to the temperature ratings of the wiring used and the connected equipment. Again, I would advise consulting a pro.

2)Related to this is that the drawing shows HLT and kettle connected to the same panel and thus the same source of AC. If both kettle and HLT heaters were energized then clearly there would be an overcurrent situation and the breaker would trip (we hope). I see that there is a SPDT switch which prevents control signal from going to both sets of SSRs but keep in mind that SSRs tend to fail open. If one does and there is overcurrent then the breaker should protect things but if you can prevent that from ever happening by, for example, feeding the HLT from a separate circuit from the panel or using contactors in series with the SSR's then you are not relying on the breaker alone.

Further to this is that in my experience you want the HLT on line continuously throughout the brew. Initially it is used to heat strike water, then water for infusions, then water for sparge, then makeup water for boil loss, then hot water for pushing the last of the wort through the chiller and finally for rinsing the chiller. I know that having to shut the HLT down when the kettle is operating would not work for me. As such I would, in your situation, give considerable thought to separating the HLT from the kettle power supply. You may have thought this through and come up with procedures that never require hot water during boil in which case you can dismiss this second set of remarks.

 

[The10mmKid]

Sound advice and thought ajdelange.

One other piece of this puzzle is that more-than-likely neither pot will be at 100% duty cycle simultaneously.

My thoughts are after the HLT heats to ~170, the duty cycle may be 25% or lower.
Likewise, the kettle will not be at 100% after a rolling boil is met. Not having direct experience with the OP's equipment nor wattage, I'd guess it would be less than 50% duty cycle too.

Soooooo, along with your thinking, if we can 'interlock' the two controllers where neither can be at 100% output together, sounds like we're Golden.

The "Below setpoint" alarm output comes to mind.

'da Kid

Thinking a bit more about your problem two things came to mind

1) The circuit breaker size. You are fine (to the NECs way of thinking) in going to the full rating of the breaker as long as the load is intermittent. Intermittent is defined as being on continuously for less than 3 hrs. If you are boiling for 2 hrs and then shutting down then you have an intermittent load and are fine as far as NEC considerations apply. You might want to give this some thought i.e. as to how long you think the HLT load plus boil load will be on. If the sum of the HLT and kettle on times is greater than 3 hrs then you have a continuous load and should size the breaker to 125% of that load. If the kettle and HLT on times are over 3 hrs but there is a 5 minute break when neither is on then you have an intermittent load, technically, but, in sizing for 100% are definitely not in the spirit of things. The object here is not to find ways around the code but to be safe.

There are breakers rated 100% for continuous loads but there are some additional requirements with respect to the temperature ratings of the wiring used and the connected equipment. Again, I would advise consulting a pro.

2)Related to this is that the drawing shows HLT and kettle connected to the same panel and thus the same source of AC. If both kettle and HLT heaters were energized then clearly there would be an overcurrent situation and the breaker would trip (we hope). I see that there is a SPDT switch which prevents control signal from going to both sets of SSRs but keep in mind that SSRs tend to fail open. If one does and there is overcurrent then the breaker should protect things but if you can prevent that from ever happening by, for example, feeding the HLT from a separate circuit from the panel or using contactors in series with the SSR's then you are not relying on the breaker alone.

Further to this is that in my experience you want the HLT on line continuously throughout the brew. Initially it is used to heat strike water, then water for infusions, then water for sparge, then makeup water for boil loss, then hot water for pushing the last of the wort through the chiller and finally for rinsing the chiller. I know that having to shut the HLT down when the kettle is operating would not work for me. As such I would, in your situation, give considerable thought to separating the HLT from the kettle power supply. You may have thought this through and come up with procedures that never require hot water during boil in which case you can dismiss this second set of remarks.

 

[The10mmKid]

Chris,
This connector implies (but not absolutely true) that there is a neutral wire "W" with the 208 3ph.
Which is a great thing.

'da Kid

That's really helpful and you explained it in a way that makes total sense to me. I believe the building has a 5 wire receptacle and I just attached the wrong picture. Once I confirm that the building has this I can go with an L21-30 flanged male receptacle. If not then I can just build the panel accordingly.

You're right about the pumps. I don't think they will go over an amp a piece in my application. I have the 3/4hp c100 pump with the 56c motor with vfd controllers. I'll never be running them full throttle with the elements on since my sparge will be low and slow. They will be on carts since I'll be using them for CIP and Keg washing so if worst comes to worst, I can just run them on a separate circuit.


Like this right.....?

 

[ajdelange]

One other piece of this puzzle is that more-than-likely neither pot will be at 100% duty cycle simultaneously.

True enough but the code says that a breaker should be rated for 100% of the intermittent loads connected to it plus 125% of the continuous load. Here we have two intermittent loads of 46 amps each so the breaker size should be 92 (100) amps.

The panels in my house have 200 amp breakers. I have never seen a current of more than 50 - 60 amps (not that I'm out there staring at the meters 24/7) and usually its a lot less than that. But if I could find the builder's calculations I'll bet that I'd find that his estimate (from those formulas they use based on square footage etc.) of 1*intermittent + 1.25*continuous was close to 200 amps. That's how the breaker was chosen.


As for the connecter my understanding is that the 'W' stands for 'white' i.e. the neutral wire and 'G' for 'green' or 'ground'. I'm guessing that the other terminals are not labeled as to color because the colors for the three phases vary from place to place and the order in which they are connected depends on the rotation you want.

 

[crtracy]

Thanks guys this insight is golden. It is helping me consider all the possibilities before getting started.

Here is my thinking:

In an ideal situation, I would be able to run both the HLT and BK so I could double batch and CIP. I also would love a 4th element in each kettle for faster ramping. But in order for me to make all that happen, I would have to hardwire my brew panel, modify the main breaker, and run larger wire from the main to the panel. That makes things very costly and gets the city involved more than I want them to be. I won't be double batching for a long time, at which point I should be generating enough cash flow to upgrade my panel. This single batch process should last me quite awhile before I grow out of it. So in short, this panel is compromising a few things in order to keep the cost down and the amps under 50. Since the building already has a 50 amp 3 phase 5 wire outlet (in the perfect spot to brew), I'm hoping I can make it work on the cheap.

So here is what I was thinking for process: I have already built a smaller single element panel for my single tier 15G setup. This will become my CIP cart and I can run it on another circuit if I need to clean tanks while my brewhouse panel is active.

My HLT is only needed up until the sparge. Once my elements in the BK are covered, I can flip the switch over to the BK to begin ramping to boil. I won't need my HLT powered because it should hold temps well enough for the last 20-30 minutes of sparging. (I do this on my homebrew setup and it works great.)

My pumps are mounted on Dolly's with a VFD and I can just plug them into the wall (another circuit) so I never have to worry about overloading the panel circuit. I'll be controlling the flow on the vfd's anyway so a switch on the brew panel just sort of becomes redundant.

P-J originally drew this diagram up without contactors because he thought they were really spendy but I found some affordable 3py contactors so I definitely plan to modify this schematic to include contactors inline with the SSR's. This will prevent leakage but also allow me to unplug elements from a dead kettle for cleaning while the other is hot.

I think I have considered everything but if you guys think of a better way let me know your thoughts.

 

[P-J]

Thanks guys this insight is golden. It is helping me consider all the possibilities before getting started.

Here is my thinking:

In an ideal situation, I would be able to run both the HLT and BK so I could double batch and CIP. I also would love a 4th element in each kettle for faster ramping. But in order for me to make all that happen, I would have to hardwire my brew panel, modify the main breaker, and run larger wire from the main to the panel. That makes things very costly and gets the city involved more than I want them to be. I won't be double batching for a long time, at which point I should be generating enough cash flow to upgrade my panel. This single batch process should last me quite awhile before I grow out of it. So in short, this panel is compromising a few things in order to keep the cost down and the amps under 50. Since the building already has a 50 amp 3 phase 5 wire outlet (in the perfect spot to brew), I'm hoping I can make it work on the cheap.

So here is what I was thinking for process: I have already built a smaller single element panel for my single tier 15G setup. This will become my CIP cart and I can run it on another circuit if I need to clean tanks while my brewhouse panel is active.

My HLT is only needed up until the sparge. Once my elements in the BK are covered, I can flip the switch over to the BK to begin ramping to boil. I won't need my HLT powered because it should hold temps well enough for the last 20-30 minutes of sparging. (I do this on my homebrew setup and it works great.)

My pumps are mounted on Dolly's with a VFD and I can just plug them into the wall (another circuit) so I never have to worry about overloading the panel circuit. I'll be controlling the flow on the vfd's anyway so a switch on the brew panel just sort of becomes redundant.

P-J originally drew this diagram up without contactors because he thought they were really spendy but I found some affordable 3py contactors so I definitely plan to modify this schematic to include contactors inline with the SSR's. This will prevent leakage but also allow me to unplug elements from a dead kettle for cleaning while the other is hot.

I think I have considered everything but if you guys think of a better way let me know your thoughts.

If needed, send me the details and a link for the contactors and I'll modify the diagram for you to include them. Plus any other changes that you might need or want.

P-J

 

[crtracy]

Thank you for taking the time!


I think these contactors would work: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC
I don't see any other changes other than the fact that I will be mounting a fanged receptacle

 

[ajdelange]

Contactors should solve the SSR fail problem. You might want to consider going belt and suspenders by ordering ones with NC auxiliary contacts. This contact from contactor 1 goes in series with the coil on contactor 2. If contactor 1 is energized its auxiliary contact is open and contactor 2 cannot be energized.

 

[JSDco]

If needed, send me the details and a link for the contactors and I'll modify the diagram for you to include them. Plus any other changes that you might need or want.

P-J

P-J,

I am new to this thread but was hoping I could get a clear copy of your diagram updated on this 208v 3-phase element build. It seems very similar to what I am trying to accomplish.

Much appreciated.

 

[crtracy]

P-J, Did you ever have an opportunity to modify the schematics to add the contactors? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...p/SC-E3-110VAC

I've spent these last few months building my keg washer and grain mill but I finally have all the parts for this control panel except for the heat sinks and I'm pretty much ready to get this thing built. I have been debating on heat sinks with fans for internal mounting or going with larger ones outside of the panel so I can have a more water resistant build. Do you guys have any recommendations?

JSDco, I have the full size version of the schematics that PJ has designed up to this point if you would like them. Just shoot me your email. The design is without contactors. Hopefully P-J will reply and has updated the schematic to add the contactors.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

P-J,

I am new to this thread but was hoping I could get a clear copy of your diagram updated on this 208v 3-phase element build. It seems very similar to what I am trying to accomplish.

Much appreciated.

Is this you Doc Jones by any chance?

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Here is PJ's updated Schematic alarming all the PID's. Thanks PJ! I am going to order everything up soon and I'll post progress pics along the way.

any chance you could email me this drawing file, much cleaner than the one I was working one. Would be appreciated.

Geoff
[email protected]

 

[P-J]

P-J, Did you ever have an opportunity to modify the schematics to add the contactors? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...p/SC-E3-110VAC

Hopefully P-J will reply and has updated the schematic to add the contactors.

Chris.

Diagram is finished and emailed to you. It took me many many hours to modify and complete the drawing.

Hope it fits your needs.

P-J