3 Phase 208V Control Panel for 3 or 4 Elements

[crtracy]

Hi All,

I am trying to plan my control panel build around the 3BBL Stout Electric Kettles and I have been reading a ton of threads around the subject. I seem to have found several designs but none seem to fit my specific needs and have a few unanswered questions. My building has 208v 3 phase power. I want to power 3 208v 5500 watt elements at a time. (3 in HLT and 3 in BK)

The kettles come with 4 Element Ports but I was going to try and get away with just 3 5500 watt elements since the main breaker may not have room for anything larger than 60A. Correct me if I am wrong, but rough math says losing the 4th 5500W element will only add 10 minutes to reach a boil from 160f. I am ok with an extra 10 minutes if it simplifies my build in cost.

PJ on here has been a wealth of knowledge and he drew up this diagram below for another member.

So here is my question: I figure that the only difference between this design and what I need is just 60a 208V DIN Breakers as opposed to 50a 240V Breakers.. Can anyone confirm this? And can you also confirm that every other aspect if this design would fit my need?

http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a9-SYL-2352-3-phase-240V-delta.jpg

 

[P-J]

Hi All,

I am trying to plan my control panel build around the 3BBL Stout Electric Kettles and I have been reading a ton of threads around the subject. I seem to have found several designs but none seem to fit my specific needs and have a few unanswered questions. My building has 208v 3 phase power. I want to power 3 208v 5500 watt elements at a time. (3 in HLT and 3 in BK)

The kettles come with 4 Element Ports but I was going to try and get away with just 3 5500 watt elements since the main breaker may not have room for anything larger than 60A. Correct me if I am wrong, but rough math says losing the 4th 5500W element will only add 10 minutes to reach a boil from 160f. I am ok with an extra 10 minutes if it simplifies my build in cost.

PJ on here has been a wealth of knowledge and he drew up this diagram below for another member.

So here is my question: I figure that the only difference between this design and what I need is just 60a 208V DIN Breakers as opposed to 50a 240V Breakers.. Can anyone confirm this? And can you also confirm that every other aspect if this design would fit my need?

http://www.pjmuth.org/beerstuff/images/Auberin-wiring1-a9-SYL-2352-3-phase-240V-delta.jpg

You got it exactly right.

Wishing you the best.

P-J

 

[crtracy]

I cant seem to find 208vac DIN breakers anywhere. I have looked at all the usual places online. All I see are 240, 277, and 480. Am I missing something? Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Another stupid question, based on this design, the PID is controlling 3 elements simultaneously in an on/off fashion right? Is there any way the PID can control each of the 3 elements individually so that when target is reached, it can power one element down while running 2? Or can it only pulse all three at once in an on/off manner?

 

[jeffmeh]

I cant seem to find 208vac DIN breakers anywhere. I have looked at all the usual places online. All I see are 240, 277, and 480. Am I missing something? Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Another stupid question, based on this design, the PID is controlling 3 elements simultaneously in an on/off fashion right? Is there any way the PID can control each of the 3 elements individually so that when target is reached, it can power one element down while running 2? Or can it only pulse all three at once in an on/off manner?

If you autotune the PID with all 3 elements running, then reaching set temp and then powering only 1 will likely give you suboptimal results.

 

[The10mmKid]

I cant seem to find 208vac DIN breakers anywhere. I have looked at all the usual places online. All I see are 240, 277, and 480. Am I missing something? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

You can use any breaker with a higher voltage rating than your supply voltage.

'da Kid

 

[P-J]

I cant seem to find 208vac DIN breakers anywhere. I have looked at all the usual places online. All I see are 240, 277, and 480. Am I missing something? Can anyone point me in the right direction?


Another stupid question, based on this design, the PID is controlling 3 elements simultaneously in an on/off fashion right? Is there any way the PID can control each of the 3 elements individually so that when target is reached, it can power one element down while running 2? Or can it only pulse all three at once in an on/off manner?

If you autotune the PID with all 3 elements running, then reaching set temp and then powering only 1 will likely give you suboptimal results.

You can use any breaker with a higher voltage rating than your supply voltage.

'da Kid

As was said. The 240V 3 pole 60A breaker is A-Ok and will suit your application well.

The 3 elements are controlled as a single unit and must be controlled in that manner as jeffmeh stated. The PID regulates the "set" as a single unit for either temperature or boil rate.

 

[crtracy]

This clears up a lot of questions. My knowledge is very pedestrian and I was going to have an electrician help me wire it up after I assemble the panel. I am guessing the typical electrician that doesn't brew may have a bit of trouble so the more I can understand the better. Plus I ned to get a solid diagram and parts list so I know what to order. It looks like this plan is the closest I found to what I need.

I noticed that some designs I come across have contactors in front of the SSR's and other diagrams do not. What is the advantage/difference?

 

[P-J]

This clears up a lot of questions. My knowledge is very pedestrian and I was going to have an electrician help me wire it up after I assemble the panel. I am guessing the typical electrician that doesn't brew may have a bit of trouble so the more I can understand the better. Plus I ned to get a solid diagram and parts list so I know what to order. It looks like this plan is the closest I found to what I need.

I noticed that some designs I come across have contactors in front of the SSR's and other diagrams do not. What is the advantage/difference?

Whenever power is switched on lines that carry current, switches can be used for low power draw but it is wise to use a contactor to switch high amp circuits. This way, smaller switches can be used in the design.

For instance, look for a switch that is capable of controlling a 30 amp circuit. They are huge and conflict with the overall appearance of the control panel.

Hope this makes sense.

P-J

 

[The10mmKid]

There are at least two other items you need to know and should be aware of.

1) At 208V, the heat output of the 5500W heaters will be less. Like 4750 Watts
2) Also be careful if you intend to use one of those hot legs for the 120V control voltage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta

Your electrician should be up-to-speed on 3ph before ever messing with it.

'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

P-J,
Have you ever drawn a 3ph heater circuit such as this?

They are quite common in my industry.

Of course the heaters for crtracys' application would need to be 120V/2000w

'da Kid

 

[P-J]

There are at least two other items you need to know and should be aware of.

1) At 208V, the heat output of the 5500W heaters will be less. Like 4750 Watts
2) Also be careful if you intend to use one of those hot legs for the 120V control voltage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta

Your electrician should be up-to-speed on 3ph before ever messing with it.

'da Kid

Yoiu are correct IF the element is a 5500W 240V element. However crtracy specified that he was going to use 5500W 208V elements. That is a different ball game as that element provides 5500W at 208V and draws 26.44 amps.

P-J

 

[jeffmeh]

The contactor before the element allows you to throw a switch and be sure that the element is off. SSRs can fail closed. Knowing that off means off is a valuable safety feature.

SSRs will also leak a bit of power.

 

[crtracy]

My math is off I think. I was assuming that 5500w elements would draw 15.28 amps (208 x 1.73 x 15.28amps = 5500). That made me believe that I could get by with a 60A breaker (15.28 x 3 elements / .80 buffer = 58Amps). But is my calculation wrong?

I am going to place my order for the 3bbl Stout system in a few months and I need to figure out my panel. There is already a 60amp breaker open in my building on the main panel so to keep things simple, I was hoping to keep my design to 3 208v 5500w elements in each kettle. I wouldn't do double batches so I was thinking of a Panel very similar to KAL's 50a kit at electricbrewery It has the 3 position switch to toggle between kettles. Mine would just simply be adapted to a 60amp 3 phase setup. I know it is more complicated than that if I want to have 2 single phase pumps and off/auto/manual switches for everything as well.

PJ or anyone, do you happen to have a diagram laying around for a 208v 3 phase panel like this?

 

[jeffmeh]

If it is really a 208v, 5500w element, then watts divided by volts yields amps.

 

[jeffmeh]

And if it is a 240v 5500w element, running at 208v, then it is like 10mmkid said. The wattage would be reduced as would the amperage draw.

 

[The10mmKid]

OP, where are you getting 208V elements?

AND, if we can get P-J to draw up a true 3-ph circuit, you can save yourself some components and wire size.

I get ~40 amps each leg running the circuit as a balanced Delta 3-phase.

crtracy, get with your electrician before ordering anything.

'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

Here is a nice Ohms Law and 3-phase heater PDF

http://www.proheatinc.com/support/Technical/electrical.pdf

'da Kid

 

[P-J]

OP, where are you getting 208V elements?

Here is one source:
http://www.comfortgurus.com/product_info.php/products_id/42644/language/en

Just do a Google search for Element - 208V/5500W Stainless Steel

 

[Dog House Brew]

I thought I have seen 3 phase drawings here before. I too would like to see one like you need. I think the Squam Lakes folks have Stouts 3 BBL kettles. I think they are using 3 elements and work well for them.

 

[crtracy]

A schematic would help me big time. I mapped out my parts but a couple things I'm still scratching my head on. I wanted to do this build without forking out most of my budget to an electrician so I was going to assemble the panel and have an electrician review my work and connect it to the main.


PJ, any chance you could put together a schematic based on my needs? I put together a preliminary map based on simplicity. Hoping my attachment is viewable to you guys.

I really don't need anything fancy. I just want to run the PID's for MLT and BK for 3 elements each. I haven't purchased the elements yet but I assumed 208v elements would be ideal.

I want to have receptacles on the panel for the pumps so I can unplug them at will and cart them off to another job in the brewery when needed.

I like the idea of alarming each PID when it hits target. I also like the 3 selector switch to toggle from the HLT to the BK since I will only need 1 tank running at once. But I plan to put everything in a big enclosure so that later if I choose, I can modify the box to run 6 elements at once. If you thing it is just better to do it from the beginning, let me know your thoughts. I only hesitate because I would have to have more work done to the main supply in order to support 6 elements.

Any advice and assistance is appreciated. You guys have already helped school this fellow.

 

[atoughram]

Are you opening up a nano or brewpub in T-Town?

Sounds like you have PJ working this already - but if you need a hand I might be able to help.

 

[P-J]

Are you opening up a nano or brewpub in T-Town?

Sounds like you have PJ working this already - but if you need a hand I might be able to help.

Yes I'm in the process of developing a diagram for him. It is an extremely complex mission and is taking me some time.

P-J

 

[crtracy]

Thank you PJ for any time spent on this. I'll have to figure out how to get batch #1 in your hands somehow.

Yes, atoughram. The plan is for a nano in 2015. Hope to have our Brewers Notice submitted by January. Are you in the trade? PM me.

 

[P-J]

Thank you PJ for any time spent on this. ...

I finished the diagram for you. WOW what a task to accomplish.

Anyway, I ran into some sever problems a month or so ago when Microsoft stopped supporting Windows XP. I am not able to log into my private web site anymore. I believe my only option for that is to buy a new computer as I cannot update this one to Microsoft Windows 7 or 8 with the current PC technology.. That is not going to happen as this OLD retired (wait - wait - "Retarded"?) man cannot affort to throw the money away.

Please send an Email to Deleted - Sorry anyone else and I will reply with the diagram attached for you. I have it in 2 sizes and can send you either or both.

Oh, Oh, I shut down private messages on HomeBrewTalk some time ago as I was deluged with floods of PMs at that time.

Wishing you the best.

P-J (Paul J.)

 

[P-J]

...

Chris,
Done deal. Both files sent to you. Perhaps you might have a way to post one of them on this thread so others could see what you are up to and what you have.

Wishing you great success.

Oh... Oh.. If you want or need any additions or changes please let me know.

P-J

 

[crtracy]

Thanks PJ for all the time spent on this. I shot you an email with a couple questions on the panel alarm and main supply requirements. What would be the advantage to adding 3 phase contactors if I chose to include them in the design?

 

[P-J]

Thanks PJ for all the time spent on this. I shot you an email with a couple questions on the panel alarm and main supply requirements. What would be the advantage to adding 3 phase contactors if I chose to include them in the design?

Chris,

3 Phase contactors are outragesly expensive. Do a search and they will be in a range of about $250 for a very low amp unit to over $1000 each for the ones that would apply to your build.

P-J

 

[atoughram]

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E1G-24VDC

32a three pole - $45 bucks

Only problem is it has a 24vdc coil.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E1-110VAC

32a with a 110vac coil - $37 bucks

 

[P-J]

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E1G-24VDC

32a three pole - $45 bucks

Only problem is it has a 24vdc coil.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E1-110VAC

32a with a 110vac coil - $37 bucks

The problem is a 60A contactor would be required for this 3 phase application.

Maybe you can find one of those for cheap?

 

[atoughram]

The problem is a 60A contactor would be required for this 3 phase application.

Maybe you can find one of those for cheap?

No - two 30amp contactors work work fine.

Here's a 50amp three pole for $64 with a 110V coil.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-110VAC

Here's a 65amp three pole for $72

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ctors_-z-_Overloads/65_to_80_Amp/SC-E3-110VAC