2nd gen vs 1st gen water prediction

[belgbrew]

So I did a Rodenbach clone based on Jeff Sparrow recipe

Used 4 sheets to determine mash additions and mash pH.
Here’s the pH numbers versus what I’ve measured:

Bru’n’water 1.23: 5.45
MME 6.5: 5.4
Water Engine 1.11: 5.626
Brewing Engine 1.18: 5.609
Measured: 5.28 @ Beta Amylase Rest
5.26 @ Alpha Amylase Rest


0.1 difference from 1st gen is ok for me, but to get 5.4 pH with WE/BE I need to add 5ml of 80% lactic acid that in real life would decrease pH below or near 5.0 mark

Any ideas on how to deal with that or I’m missing something?


Here’s the recipe:

Grain Bill:
Vienna 3.3L 3.0kg
Raw Maize 2L 1.0kg
Cara Ruby 25L 0.5kg
Carahell 14L 0.5kg
Abbey (Aromatic) 25L 0.5kg
Special B 142L 0.2kg


Source Water - RO, pH - 6.4
Ca 3.8 | Mg 1.5 | Na 2.1 | SO4 0.8 | Cl 0.9 | HCO3 30.5

Target Water - West Flanders Boiled
Ca 40 | Mg 10 | Na 125 | SO4 145 | Cl 139 | HCO3 80

Strike Water - 16L

Salt Additions:
Gypsum 3.00g
Epsum 1.60g
Table Salt 3.54g
Baking Soda 1.76g

Mash Schedule:
20 min @ 50°C
40 min @ 63°C
30 min @ 72°C
10 min @ 76°C

pH meter - Milwaukee MW101, calibrated before reading. Reading @50°C with manual temp compensation

 

[ajdelange]

There are two parts to the problem. The first is collecting the relevant data to allow accurate mash prediction. These include the properties of the malts used, the water and of any added acids or bases. The second part is inserting these data into models that accurately represent the actual mash tun chemistry.

What I have come to refer to as Gen I spreadsheets and calculators fall down in both departments. Gen II takes care of the second problem but the first remains unless you are willing to go to considerable effort to collect the malt data or get it from someone who has it.

Fortunately one doesn't really need accurate mash pH predictions. Those who seek them do so mostly as an academic exercise. It is usually sufficient to get a rough estimate and, if precise mash pH control is sought, attain it by taking measurements on test mashes with the same composition as planned for the beer.

 

[Big Monk]

So I did a Rodenbach clone based on Jeff Sparrow recipe

Used 4 sheets to determine mash additions and mash pH.
Here’s the pH numbers versus what I’ve measured:

Bru’n’water 1.23: 5.45
MME 6.5: 5.4
Water Engine 1.11: 5.626
Brewing Engine 1.18: 5.609
Measured: 5.28 @ Beta Amylase Rest
5.26 @ Alpha Amylase Rest


0.1 difference from 1st gen is ok for me, but to get 5.4 pH with WE/BE I need to add 5ml of 80% lactic acid that in real life would decrease pH below or near 5.0 mark

Any ideas on how to deal with that or I’m missing something?


Here’s the recipe:

Grain Bill:
Vienna 3.3L 3.0kg
Raw Maize 2L 1.0kg
Cara Ruby 25L 0.5kg
Carahell 14L 0.5kg
Abbey (Aromatic) 25L 0.5kg
Special B 142L 0.2kg


Source Water - RO, pH - 6.4
Ca 3.8 | Mg 1.5 | Na 2.1 | SO4 0.8 | Cl 0.9 | HCO3 30.5

Target Water - West Flanders Boiled
Ca 40 | Mg 10 | Na 125 | SO4 145 | Cl 139 | HCO3 80

Strike Water - 16L

Salt Additions:
Gypsum 3.00g
Epsum 1.60g
Table Salt 3.54g
Baking Soda 1.76g

Mash Schedule:
20 min @ 50°C
40 min @ 63°C
30 min @ 72°C
10 min @ 76°C

pH meter - Milwaukee MW101, calibrated before reading. Reading @50°C with manual temp compensation

Did you add any acid initially? I'm assuming the baking soda was to get your measurement back into 5.4 range?

When I enter your info in The BE, I get 5.54 as a pre-acid/base prediction.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

One screenshot is worth 10,000 words when it comes to recipes and mash pH predictions.

 

[Big Monk]

Gen II takes care of the second problem but the first remains unless you are willing to go to considerable effort to collect the malt data or get it from someone who has it.

One thing I am considering is making the "Malt Classes" I put together more generic across the malt types (de-emphasizing it) and adding more emphasis on the DI pH user input.

By generalizing the known titration data and helping the user emphasize and identify DI pH (which they have more access to depending on the maltster) and entering it, it may turn out to be more helpful.

Whether that helps, I'm not sure.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@RPIScotty definitely a step in the right direction. That's the same reasoning I use with ezRecipe Design.

Mash pH prediction based on known malt DIpH eliminates many of the variables related to the types of malt in peoples recipes.

I attempted to use the OP's ingredient list and water properties but soon gave up once I realized how general they were.

 

[belgbrew]

Did you add any acid initially? I'm assuming the baking soda was to get your measurement back into 5.4 range?

When I enter your info in The BE, I get 5.54 as a pre-acid/base prediction.

Nope, sir - no Acid pre addition
I was aiming for the target water profile and I supposed to add lactic acid in a mash (5ml).
But when I saw the difference between the sheets I decided not to add it and was right in the end

One screenshot is worth 10,000 words when it comes to recipes and mash pH predictions.

Here you go

 

[belgbrew]

One thing I am considering is making the "Malt Classes" I put together more generic across the malt types (de-emphasizing it) and adding more emphasis on the DI pH user input.

By generalizing the known titration data and helping the user emphasize and identify DI pH (which they have more access to depending on the maltster) and entering it, it may turn out to be more helpful.

Whether that helps, I'm not sure.

Is there any other way to determine pH DI, e.g. with RO water, calculating back to DI with known minerals?

I use Chateau malts and the data they provide on the malt batch doesn't contains pH at all. So the only way to know pH DI is by experiment

 

[Big Monk]

Is there any other way to determine pH DI, e.g. with RO water, calculating back to DI with known minerals?

I use Chateau malts and the data they provide on the malt batch doesn't contains pH at all. So the only way to know pH DI is by experiment

You’d have to measure it if its not provided.

 

[belgbrew]

You’d have to measure it if its not provided.

I mean can I measure it with RO water, not DI...

 

[Big Monk]

I mean can I measure it with RO water, not DI...

I would use distilled at the very least.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Here you go
View attachment 627174 View attachment 627175 View attachment 627176 View attachment 627177View attachment 627179

For Mash Made Easy you forgot to set the 'drop down' base malt DI_pH selector switch to "Vienna" (as it is still set to "Pilsner" in your attached image). The mash pH prediction of MME would have been lower, and closer to what you actually measured had you properly done this.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, you can measure it with RO water as the alkalinity of RO water is very low. The purist would, of course, prefer DI.