20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[rebrandsoftware]

Just curious if I'm the only one with this problem: I made a Belgian using the 290 syrup from this page. The syrup smelled and tasted great, however, the beer did not ferment down nearly as much as it did when I purchased a similar syrup.

Is there something about the homemade syrup that makes it less fermentable? Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.

 

[DannPM]

Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.

I have also found that you can get close making it yourself, but imo, I have never tasted one that is anywhere near the quality and flavor of Dark Candi inc's products.

 

[orangehero]

I believe that making syrup like Dark Candi is extremely easy and cheap, it just requires knowledge we do not have at the moment. It probably requires a proper choice of catalyst and good temperature and pH control as the reaction happens fast.

 

[mezzoblue]

Is there something about the homemade syrup that makes it less fermentable? Unfortunately the beer I made with it isnt' nearly as good as usual.

I actually had the opposite problem, my dubbel was supposed to finish around 1.012, but it didn't stop there and I ended up with a super dry 1.005 almost saison-like beer.

In your case, did you replace a percentage of your primary fermentables with the syrup, or did you just add it on to an existing recipe? If you're aiming for a lower FG make sure you're dropping some of your malt, otherwise the sugar just adds alcohol without drying it out further.

 

[DannPM]

I believe that making syrup like Dark Candi is extremely easy and cheap, it just requires knowledge we do not have at the moment. It probably requires a proper choice of catalyst and good temperature and pH control as the reaction happens fast.

My understanding is that it is a byproduct of industrial scale candy making. Beyond that I do not know anything about the process they use.

 

[rebrandsoftware]

In your case, did you replace a percentage of your primary fermentables with the syrup, or did you just add it on to an existing recipe?

The recipe called for dark candi syrup which I normally purchase. I simply replaced the commercial version with the homemade version in the same quantities.

 

[HItransplant]

The recipe called for dark candi syrup which I normally purchase. I simply replaced the commercial version with the homemade version in the same quantities.

I had the same problem. My belgian stout finished really high (1022).

 

[Crustovsky]

If you overcook the syrup you will get unfermentable sugars. Keep in mind that 290 is more a guideline than a set rule with water chemistry, altitude, your equipment, and a few other factors determining where you need to cook the sugar to. Experiment with your temperatures a bit, you'll be fine.

 

[jtupper]

im digging up an old thread here but on the DAP will this work:

Yeast Nutrient : Northern Brewer

I have some already and would like to give it a shot.

"A mixture of diammonium phosphate and food-grade urea that nourishes yeast, ensuring that it remains healthy throughout fermentation. ."

I'm not sure what urea is or if it would cause any problems.

thanks in advance

 

[jpoder]

yup...that will work fine.

 

[coypoo]

I might give this a go as in ~10 days I'm making a dubbel

 

[ruralbrew]

I made a 4# batch of this a while ago to use in a cider. I was going for the #5 recipe, but it ended up looking more like the mahogany than the dark amber. I replaced a cup and a half of the white sugar with a cup and a half of lactose. By the time I got to 280 degrees I was starting to get some burnt odors, so I added the first addition of water then. After I added the water it kept foaming up on me so I had to stir constantly. By the time I got back to 260 degrees the syrup was getting pretty dark and I was tired of stirring so I added the second water addition and called it good.
The syrup had a very complex flavor, fig, dark rum, a little burnt but still sweet. It was good. I think I will use some lactose next time too, but limit the temperature to somewhere in the 260 - 270 degree range, depending on how it looks and smells.
It will be interesting to see how the cider turns out, I also steeped some Special B and boiled it down to a syrup and added it and fermented with a Belgian Ale yeast and let the temperature rise into the high 70's. It is bulk aging, this one might take a while to come around.

 

[coypoo]

Made a batch today for a dubbel on the 17th. The photo has samples from the 2 290* temp peaks. I was using a less than trusty thermometer and got a less than ideal color on the first part. But the second one darkened nicely. I am somewhat concerned that I'm not picking up a ton of dark fruit flavors but that is likely a result of the colors. It wasnt too difficult though and I can't wait to try it

 

[Lyikos]

At some point when I make a barleywine I will attempt to make 290, but cut the DAP and use wort made with 100% acid malt, probably concentrated between 1.03 to 04. That should give acidity, nitrogen, and plus trace amounts of more complex sugars, maybe giving a little more complexity. Thoughts?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

At some point when I make a barleywine I will attempt to make 290, but cut the DAP and use wort made with 100% acid malt, probably concentrated between 1.03 to 04. That should give acidity, nitrogen, and plus trace amounts of more complex sugars, maybe giving a little more complexity. Thoughts?

I have been advocating for a while that you will never reproduce the right flavors using refined white sugar no matter what additions you make. (I know several disagree with me.) You need a sugar source that includes heavy amounts of maltose, like wort. I have experimented with reducing wort and I feel like the flavor is 99% there. I haven't tried fermenting it yet to see if it is equally as fermentable as D or D2 but I intend to in the near future. Personally I do not think you need the acid malt, just regular two row.

 

[Lyikos]

I should clarify I'm planning to replace the water with acid wort, and still use the sugar since the goal is to dry out a big brew. And I'd probably use brown sugar, there are some decent local brands.

 

[Nateo]

@ Lyikos and RAM: I've given up completely on using DAP in my syrups. Certain types of Maillard reactions occur more readily at higher pH values. Using an acidified wort is probably working in the wrong direction. I've found the best flavors to come from the 8-10pH range. I've not had much luck using wort or maltose in my syrups though, so maybe RAM is on to something I haven't been able to crack yet.

 

[coypoo]

Wouldn't the acid just promote the generation of invert sugar instead of maillard reactions?

 

[Lyikos]

I actually am looking for more inversion that flavor. But that's good to know for future recipes.

 

[jkoegel]

I made a batch last night for my cider.
5lb of plain granulated sugar
2lb light brown
3 1/2 cups of water
5tbsp lemon juice (acid to aid inversion)
Took the mix slowly up to 280, color was hard to judge because I started with 2lb of light brown sugar but It resulted in a nice medium amber with some nutty toasted marshmallow tones.
Instead of cooling it by adding water I placed the pot in my sink full of cold water to drop the temp below 200 then added 1/2 gal of cider to dilute it to a more pourable consistency. I did not want to cook and set any of the pectin in the cider and make clearing it later a PITA.

Now for my question. I have seen asked here a few times already is about how fermentable this sugar is after cooking it. Does anyone know how fermentable this stuff really is?
My OG is 1.075
I guess my FG will answer my question in a couple weeks.

 

[mvasilis]

Since i'm in Sweden and can´t get a hold of DAP i'm planing on using ammonium bicarbonate (hartshorn). Does anyone know if i should use the same amount as i would with DAP?

 

[mcbethenstein]

Other uses for candy syrup

1. Heat skillet. Add butter
2. Sauté fresh pineapple
3. Add 1/2 oz rum
4. Drizzle candy syrup over top
5. As soon as combined pour directly over ice cream.
6. Enjoy!

 

[coypoo]

Thought I would post some notes on my dubbel using the sugar. I guess I didn't get it dark enough (as you can see in the photo in a previous post) so the dark fruit favors aren't there in my dubbel. It's very dry, and not very dubbel-like. I will try it again, but get the first round of darkening much darker

 

[barneygumble]

I got into this thread when I read the title. I was expecting to read some cornmeal, and an alcohol resistant yeast to 22%. Then for it go go on explaining the differences between pot stills and a column or reflux still. Imagine my disappointment.

 

[ALF]

Since i'm in Sweden and can´t get a hold of DAP i'm planing on using ammonium bicarbonate (hartshorn). Does anyone know if i should use the same amount as i would with DAP?

mvasilis,
if you are using ammonium bicarbonate use 1% of the weight of sugar. Here is an article from the brew like a monk website. scroll down towards the bottom and check out the feedback for a very lengthy and weight/temp specific comment.

http://www.brewlikeamonk.com/?p=88

 

[scottatdrake]

I have Wyeast beer nutrient but no DAP on hand. I understand that the Wyeast nutrient has some (or a lot?) of DAP in it but I can't find anything that says how much. Can I substitute it for DAP? Thanks!

 

[dwarven_stout]

I have Wyeast beer nutrient but no DAP on hand. I understand the the Wyeast nutrient has some (or a lot?) of DAP in it but I can't find anything that says how much. Can I substitute it for DAP? Thanks!

No, you can't. You'll just get burnt sugar (as I learned once to my detriment). There's a lot of other "stuff" in the wyeast nutrient.

 

[bknifefight]

Other uses for candy syrup

1. Heat skillet. Add butter
2. Sauté fresh pineapple
3. Add 1/2 oz rum
4. Drizzle candy syrup over top
5. As soon as combined pour directly over ice cream.
6. Enjoy!

I have made this syrup to put over ice cream before but the pineapple and rum just take it to a new level. Sounds, and looks, delicious!

 

[Brad1775]

I think the lack of dark color is due to too high heat, it takes a while to get to the 250 degree point, so people heat it up too much, then it blasts past 290 before the top layer of the pot can mix (past when water and amonia boils off), and the longer it takes until it reaches terminal temp, the better it mixes, the more of the mass turns dark. Going to try that again soon

 

[timdsmith72]

I just made the 290 degree version of this today for a Belgian Dubbel I'm planning on brewing next weekend and good Lord it's delicious! I may never get the smell of ammonia out of my nose though.