20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

[Scut_Monkey]

Snickasaurusrex,

I was just on the Dark Candi inc. site and I noticed that there is a difference between the dark and dark 2 products that they sell. For all of their candi syrups except Dark 2 they state under the description "Candi syrup is a liquid obtained as a by-product of the candi sugar production". We already know this, and they state that they do this by boiling the sugar and then centrifuging off the solid sugar crystals leaving the syrup. However, the Dark 2 product has a completely different description which reads "Sugar syrup obtained from repeated heating and cooling of beet sugar". No where does it mention centrifuging or removing the sugar crystals.

So perhaps the Sugar #5 that you describe is more closely replicating the Dark 2 product. Like you mentioned it is allowing more of the available sucrose to be converted by undergoing the maillard reaction twice. Thereby allowing more concentrated flavors. Maybe the main reason they remove the sugar crystals is to add shelf life to prevent crystalization which you state doesn't happen with the Sugar #5 recipe.

Just thought I would share this tidbit of info that I found on their website and my interpretation of what it means. I love this thread because I really think it goes to show that a product like this can be replicated just like cloning beer itself. Awesome job!

 

[Stratotankard]

I know your recipes are for syrup, but if I was interested in making hard candy would I just leave out the second water addition? Or as my brain slowly works through this, I wonder if it is possible to get to hard crack stage while doing the Maillard processes? Am I crazy for even thinking about making hard candy?

Terje

 

[Scut_Monkey]

What would be your reason for making the candy rather than the syrup? From what I understand the temp you take it up to after adding the water determines what the sugar will turn into after cooling. This is the reason for the hard crack temperature I believe.

 

[Stratotankard]

I don't have any jars in the house right now, and was feeling a bit lazy about driving to buy some. Also, with the issue of shelf stability, I was thinking that solid crystals should be more stable. Probably a bad idea all around, as the temp makes the color/flavour with the Maillard compounds. If it was only invert sugar, just raising the temp to hard crack wouldn't get significant color or flavour change.

Off I go to Wally World.

Terje

 

[jkpq45]

Out of all the folks that have tried making this, what's the best beer recipe in which to use it? English brown? Belgian dubbel?

I made a batch of the 290*F syrup last night. I definitely taste plums, raisins, figs, etc. Color is a bit darker (like the 300*F) even though the flavors came out like your 290*F.

 

[jjp36]

i used the 280*F in a Tripel I brewed a couple months ago and just bottled last week. Its still young and a little hot on the alcohol, but so far all signs point to awesome.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I made a test batch tonight. I made the #5 sugar and hit all the temps according to my thermometer. I have tested this thermometer and it is accurate at both boiling temps and ice water. However, the candi syrup came out the blackest of blacks. I was under the impression that the #5 sugar would be slightly darker than the 290F deep amber but not jet black.

Regardless, it tasted great and very much like strong raisins with a bitter sweet chocolate and toast flavor. Like Snickasaurausrex said it tasted a lot like very dark chocolate which has that bittersweet flavor to it.

I'll be making a total of 3-4 pounds of this for a Westvleteren 12 clone and hopefully it adds the color and flavor complexity I'm looking for. Thanks for doing all the hard work!

 

[juvinious]

I bought a candi thermometer which seems to work better than a regular thermometer for this. Also you should be heating on medium heat, to high of a heat and it'll scorch real quick. I did the 290F and wasn't pleased with the results, I made a variation of it that goes up to 310F for my westveletern 12. Here's my variation.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

It was on a very low heat and took about an hour and 10 minutes to make the #5 sugar. I am happy with how it turned out but wasn't sure what color it should be. My thermometer is a lab grade digital and I'm rather sure it's accurate at 290F but who knows. I can look for a candy thermometer at the Wally Mart. If it's under $8 or so maybe I'll get it.

 

[novafire]

Out of all the folks that have tried making this, what's the best beer recipe in which to use it? English brown? Belgian dubbel?

I made a batch of the 290*F syrup last night. I definitely taste plums, raisins, figs, etc. Color is a bit darker (like the 300*F) even though the flavors came out like your 290*F.

I made a Westvleteren clone with syrup using these techniques and at only 6 weeks old it is one of the best beers that I have ever made.

 

[daveh]

Noob question here (mt first HBT post!). I just attempted to make the #5 for a Westvleteren 12 clone I'm brewing tomorrow, and I'm not really sure if I was successful, it's very black...

Do these recipes use ordanary cane sugar or are you guys using beet sugar of some sort?

Thanks for all the info, this site has taught me a lot.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

These recipes are with regular sucrose (Domino) sugar. The same stuff you use to make an apple pie with. I made the #5 sugar as well and it is very dark (black), much like the 300F sugar #4. I made a batch of this and a medium amber #4 sugar for a Westy 12 clone that I brewed today.

Both had a great taste and I'm thinking they will add a lot of character to the beer. As a side note the #4 sugar was very hard to work with during the brewing and I would suggest heating it up slightly before you work with it to add it to the brew kettle.

Welcome to HBT!

 

[Scut_Monkey]

I wanted to thank you Snickasaurasrex for doing all this work and making it possible for me to make a Belgian with this stuff. I seemed to work great and I hit my starting gravity on the nose. I'm looking forward to drinking a 9.63% abv beauty.

 

[Okiebrewer]

I love this thread. Thanks for the color code picture too, it will be useful.

 

[chase]

I made some of the "sugar #5". I'm not very happy with it though. It turned out very bitter. After the first time it reached 290º, it was really good. It had a very distinct raisin flavor, with only a slight bitterness. The second time I brought it to 290º, the raisin flavor had mostly gone away and was mostly replaced with bitterness. I didn't heat it again. I think I'll redo it but only heat it once.


Edit: I made a second batch, and only heated to 290 one time. It is very good. Not bitter. I'm putting it in a dubbel next weekend.

 

[foxtrot]

Chase-

I got the exact same results you did!

For my second try I heated to 290, cooled, then brought it back to about 260 and killed the heat. It kept for a week with no signs of crystalization. I too made a Dubbel this past weekend and the wort smelled and tasted devine. Wort color is a beautiful deep amber with only pale/pils malts used. I used the syrup at 15%. WLP530 is happily munching away as we speak...

I think I'll save the first one I made for a stout as it does have a nice toffee/coffee essence to it.

Thanks again to Snick for the excellent research and write-up!

 

[jjp36]

Just an update to this. A few months back i made a batch that looks like it came in somewhere between the 270-280F in the picture above. The Tripel i used this candi syrup in took second place in the strong ale category with an average score of 38 in a recent contest i entered.

A couple fellow homebrewers who tasted this said they can pick up hints of vanilla and caramel, which would have to come from the syrup, since the rest of the recipe was just pilsner malt, saaz hops, and a touch of coriander.

Overall i am very pleased with the beer. Its only about 5 months old now, so i can't wait to see how the flavors continue to develop. Thanks again to SnickASaurusRex for the write up!

 

[Hermit]

I love this thread. Thanks for the color code picture too, it will be useful.

Vote early and often! :rockin:

 

[fastricky]

This is really a fascinating thread!

2 questions:

- If I make my syrup on brewday, can I just pour the correct amount into the boil so I don't have to cool it down/store it?

- Can I half all the ingredients to make less (I'll only need @ a pound)?

 

[Scut_Monkey]

1. I'm not sure if you could add it hot. I'm no candy maker but perhaps cooling it changes it somehow..... not sure. I would guess it would be fine but this is only a guess. If it is ok to do this it would be quite a bit easier as the syrup is very hard to handle once it's cold.

On another note make sure you at least do this with some buffer time built in as it can take awhile. If I were doing it on top of brewing I would be rather distracted and very short on time.

2. I changed the recipes to make smaller quantities. It seemed to work just fine.

 

[jjp36]

you can add it hot. I added mine right from the pot it was in right into my brew kettle. Worked fine for me.

 

[fastricky]

Awesome, thanks gents!

 

[fastricky]

One more question...

Will any yeast nutrient work? Or does it have to be a specific one, and if so, can someone post a link to buy it? Cheers.

 

[jjp36]

It has to contain di-ammonium phosphate. This is the one i used:

Fermax Yeast Nutrient

 

[fastricky]

Thanks again!

 

[smizak]

I've tried this twice, once at 260F and the other at 280F, and both times the sugar did not darken AT ALL. I'm beginning to think that the baggy my LHBS labeled Di-Ammonium Phosphate yeast nutrient is not or is not pure DAP.

What does your guys DAP look like? Mine has an ultra-fine white powder with bead-like translucent crystals mixed in, which along with my candi syrup results, is leading me to believe it's not pure DAP.

 

[Hermit]

I've tried this twice, once at 260F and the other at 280F, and both times the sugar did not darken AT ALL. I'm beginning to think that the baggy my LHBS labeled Di-Ammonium Phosphate yeast nutrient is not or is not pure DAP.

What does your guys DAP look like? Mine has an ultra-fine white powder with bead-like translucent crystals mixed in, which along with my candi syrup results, is leading me to believe it's not pure DAP.

I did this just to try out at the lower end of the level. I figured I'd be adding sugar to the recipe so why not? I think I could smell a hint of the ammonia from time to time.

 

[smizak]

I did this just to try out at the lower end of the level. I figured I'd be adding sugar to the recipe so why not? I think I could smell a hint of the ammonia from time to time.

I could definitely smell ammonia as well. I just noticed on my LHBS web page that they have yeast nutrient labeled as diammonium sulfate. Mine definitely says diammonium phosphate. I'm thinking that they mixed them up.

 

[KingBrianI]

I use a half a batch of the mahogany syrup in my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/caramel-amber-ale-167880/ and it is one of the best beers I've ever had, anywhere. The rich caramel flavor and aroma of the syrup make their way through to the final beer, and the syrup helps dry it out without hurting the maltiness. The result is that the smooth rich caramel from the syrup combines with the maltiness and caramel malt to really fill out the flavor. I recommend anyone who hasn't already to try this stuff in a beer. It doesn't have to be a belgian, it could work in anything.

 

[Gremlyn]

I tried twice today to make sugar #5 for a belgian dubbel and failed miserably. The firs time I kept stirring it and then found out I shouldn't do that. The second was going much better and I turned my back for one second and it boiled over so I called it quits. Rest assured I will try again.