1st BIAB - Efficiency questions

[Mothman]

I'm getting prepared to do my first all grain batch, will be doing BIAB.

My plan is to keep it simple for the first, and do a full volume mash, no sparge, standard grind for the grains from an online supplier.

What is a reasonable estimate of my efficiency for a first batch for putting together the recipe in Beersmith ? 70%?

And, once I decide that, how to I adjust the recipe in Beersmith, should I need to, to account for efficiency?

Eg. If a recipe is built around 75%, and I'm using 70%, how do I adjust in BS? Do I input the recipe at the desired efficiency and then adjust the grain bill manually to match the desired OG? Or does BS have an auto adjust sort of function for changing efficiency?

 

[violinguy]

I don't know about Beersmith, but in Brewer's Friend, you would change the efficiency, then adjust your grain bill to get the gravity and ABV numbers you want.

With proper water calculations and good control over mash temp and ph, you should probably get to 70+ for efficiency. With a good squeeze, you might do better.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

That's probably a good number to assume for your first brew. I use BS2 mobile. When you set up your equipment profile you can pick one of their preset BIAB profiles that is closest to your system and then edit it to fit your system exactly. When you open up an equipment profile, the first entry is efficiency. I believe the BS default for standard BIAB is 70%. Once you've brewed a few batches you can tweak the efficiency number until it yields predicted OG that fits your actual OG. That will give you an idea of your system efficiency.

 

[jan_b19]

I wouldn't go for anything higher than 70% If you're a bit over you can just top up with some water, that's easier than having to add DME.
When you are on your recipe page there is a button in the top left corner (windows version not on the app). There you can scale the recipe to other volumes and to other efficiencies.

 

[Mothman]

There you can scale the recipe to other volumes and to other efficiencies.

Thanks! I had used the Scale function to scale for volume, completely overlooked that it can scale for efficiency too. Perfect.

 

[doug293cz]

70% sounds reasonable for your first brew. Keep good notes on SG's and volumes thru the process, and you can calculate your actual efficiency for future use.

Efficiency is affected by the size of the grain bill. For a 12 lb grain bill, 6.25 pre-boil volume target, no-spage, with moderate squeeze (0.08 gal/lb grain absorption rate), and 90% conversion efficiency (reasonable for a store crush), you can expect a mash efficiency of about 71%. Brewhouse efficiency will depend on how much trub you leave in the boil kettle (brewhouse efficiency = mash efficiency * fermenter volume / post-boil volume.) If you are not going to squeeze, you should do a long drain and should see about 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption. In this case your mash efficiency would be about 69%. If you want to play around with different combinations of sparge/no-sparge, grain absorption rate (degree of squeezing), grain bills, volume targets, and expected conversion efficiency, you can do that with the calculator here.

Brew on

 

[C-Rider]

Yea, since this is first time KEEP RECORDS of everything. Don't change anything and see what you get. I do small patches the last 2 gal batch w/4.6 lbs of grain I hit 82% eff for my mash. I grind my grain in a blender into flour...but w/a grind from the online seller you probably won't get great eff. Next time ask for double grinding it available.

 

[Mothman]

Thanks guys.

I've played around with the Priceless calculator a lot. Love that calculator. I'm planning on using it for my volumes instead of Beersmith,.as the two do give slightly different numbers.

And I considered a double grind for the grains but I'm thinking I'd like to try first with a standard grind as not everywhere offers double grind and I'd like to see what I can get with standard.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

When I first started BIAB, I got about 70%. I started doing a double crush and went up to 75%. Then I started doing a slow (30 - 45 min) "modified fly sparge" (a perforated HD bucket suspended over the grain bag) and got 80%. I did try a super fine crush once but, while it did improve my mash efficiency, it left me with a lot more trub so I stick with the double crush.

Another thing to be aware of is that you will see decreased efficiency with high gravity brews. This is normal but you should plan accordingly.

 

[Morrey]

Thanks guys.

I've played around with the Priceless calculator a lot. Love that calculator. I'm planning on using it for my volumes instead of Beersmith,.as the two do give slightly different numbers.

And I considered a double grind for the grains but I'm thinking I'd like to try first with a standard grind as not everywhere offers double grind and I'd like to see what I can get with standard.

I know how you feel about efficiency, and above all else, enjoy your first BIAB brewing experience. As you gain familiarity with the BIAB process, the numbers you record will start to develop a trend for you to input into BS or similar programs.

Keep your volumes, gravities and the like all written down so you can keep track of the numbers. Once you have several BIAB experiences under your belt, you can determine numbers for BS such as your equipment profiles and of course your efficiency %. If your BS recipe assumes (default) 70% and you actually get 75%, all that means is your OG will be slightly higher. BS will compensate for that once you have a valid efficiency % by adjusting the grain bill slightly.

You'll find BIAB to be a very rewarding approach to AG brewing, just remember to enjoy your hobby as you take good and accurate notes.

 

[PADave]

Who did your grain crush? When I would buy premilled grains, I would get anywhere from 60-65%, with no consistency. Bought my own mill, use the tightest setting and now get 75% every time for normal gravity brews. That's doing a simple full volume mash and squeezing the bag, no sparge.

 

[Mothman]

Who did your grain crush? When I would buy premilled grains, I would get anywhere from 60-65%, with no consistency. Bought my own mill, use the tightest setting and now get 75% every time for normal gravity brews. That's doing a simple full volume mash and squeezing the bag, no sparge.

Not sure if this is directed at me...? I haven't ordered the grain yet. Likely will order from Ontario Beer Kegs. They don't offer double grind, as far as I know.

I've only ever ordered ingredients from them, and don't know other good Canadian options.

 

[Mothman]

BS will compensate for that once you have a valid efficiency % by adjusting the grain bill slightly.

You'll find BIAB to be a very rewarding approach to AG brewing, just remember to enjoy your hobby as you take good and accurate notes.

Can you explain this a little... I'm not totally clear on the easiest way to get this compensation to happen.

Am I on the right track that, I would enter a recipe into BS using the recipes posted efficiency, and then after doing that, I would then set the recipe to my own, true, efficiency using the Scale function? That is where the grain scaling happens?

And yeah, I am really looking forward to trying BIAB.

 

[Morrey]

Can you explain this a little... I'm not totally clear on the easiest way to get this compensation to happen.

Am I on the right track that, I would enter a recipe into BS using the recipes posted efficiency, and then after doing that, I would then set the recipe to my own, true, efficiency using the Scale function? That is where the grain scaling happens?

And yeah, I am really looking forward to trying BIAB.

I have never tried your idea, but I took an old recipe of mine in BS at 80%, used the scale function and said I was getting 50%. Yes, BS then changed the grain bill upward for me so the additional grains would get to the OG and ABV% the recipe called for. So yes, your conversion technique works. Good thinking!

Typically I do 5.5 G batches and I may find a recipe for 14 gallons as an example. I'd scale the recipe from 14G to 5.5G with this feature...that's the way I typically use this scale function. Another variable is I may find a recipe somewhere that is built on 70% and I am at 80%. It is important to know what ABV% and OG you are aiming at as a target so the program can bring you there with the correct vol of grains based on the efficiency you are getting.

Lots of brewers want to chase after big efficiency numbers and that is understandable. This means you are getting your money's worth out of a sack of grains. However, consistency is by far your most trusted ally since you can repeat the process w/o being all over the place efficiency-wise. You'll hear many brewers say I'd rather get 75% every time like clockwork rather than 85% one day and 70% the next. Consistency comes from a solid and repeatable process.

Since you BIAB, you'll discover grain grind will be a factor in your efficiency. Most commercial grinding operations hit the middle of the road with a med grind. This is due to the many techniques brewers use, and it happens that BIAB users in general are able to use a finer grind due to this process. If you stick with this hobby and enjoy it, one piece of equipment you'll eventually ask for is a grain mill. You can get a passable 2 roller mill powered by your hand drill for $100 give or take a few dollars. Don't rush your equipment...suggesting getting a handle on BIAB and your efficiency, then grow from there.

 

[Mothman]

Great advice, thanks!

Would you say it is worthwhile to start with a standard grain grind? Just to see what that does for me?

My preferred online vendor (Ontario Beer Kegs), is preferred only because I have ordered from them before and have been happy with the product and shipping. But they don't offer double grind.

Am I going to be wishing I'd done a double grind? I don't really care if my efficiency suffers a little and my ABV falls a few points short... but I would be a bit disappointed if it falls WAY short.

 

[Draken]

Double crush if you can. It makes a difference! I've also heard mashing longer helps, but I've not compared myself.

 

[doug293cz]

Great advice, thanks!

Would you say it is worthwhile to start with a standard grain grind? Just to see what that does for me?

My preferred online vendor (Ontario Beer Kegs), is preferred only because I have ordered from them before and have been happy with the product and shipping. But they don't offer double grind.

Am I going to be wishing I'd done a double grind? I don't really care if my efficiency suffers a little and my ABV falls a few points short... but I would be a bit disappointed if it falls WAY short.

Crush affects conversion efficiency (i.e. what percentage of the original starch gets converted to sugar.) Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, so that's why crush also affects mash efficiency. Crush does not significantly affect lauter efficiency.

You can monitor your conversion efficiency during the mash using the method described here. You need to stir aggressively prior to taking SG samples to insure that you have uniform sugar concentration in the wort throughout the mash. Don't sample until the end of your mash, since removing insulation and uncovering the pot will cause additional temperature drop. If your conversion efficiency is low at the end of your target mash time, then you can extend the mash to get more conversion, and improve your efficiency. I'd suggest going at least an extra half hour. Test again after the additional time, and if still low conversion, try extending for another half hour. If you are still low after an additional hour of mashing, you've probably reached the point where most of your amylase enzymes are denatured, so additional time won't get significantly more conversion.

Brew on

 

[dstockwell]

When I first started BIAB and using brewers friend and using pre-crushed grain I set the brewhouse efficiency @ 65%. Now that I use a ugly junk corona mill I use 70%. I do full volume no sparge and am perfectly happy with 70%.

 

[Mothman]

Doug, In my case, if I am doing a full-volume, no sparge, BIAB, isn't conversion efficiency going to be the same as mash efficiency? As there is no lautering process?

So my First Wort measurement as in your link is essentially the same as my pre-boil gravity, correct?

In any case, that's good advice... if I'm a tad low after the recipe's hour mash, I will extend the time.

 

[Mothman]

When I first started BIAB and using brewers friend and using pre-crushed grain I set the brewhouse efficiency @ 65%. Now that I use a ugly junk corona mill I use 70%. I do full volume no sparge and am perfectly happy with 70%.

Awesome, thanks.

I think I'll just run with 70%, standard grind, and see how it goes.

 

[bradleypariah]

I don't know about Beersmith, but in Brewer's Friend, you would change the efficiency, then adjust your grain bill to get the gravity and ABV numbers you want.

^^This.

My very next batch will be my first AG and my first BIAB. I'm planning on getting absolutely horrible efficiency, so I'm going to shoot high (like 1.065 OG assuming only 65% eff). If I hit the common 70% efficiency everyone else gets, I'll just pitch more yeast and enjoy a 7% ABV beer. If I hit the mythical BIAB 80%... well.... okay! 8% ABV! LOL I care, but I don't care. This very first AG/BIAB batch isn't destined for a competition. I'm just learning. If I've got quality ingredients, 1% ABV up or down is fine for me this time. It'll be great. I'll drink it. Not great advice, I know.

Hopefully by the batch after that, I'll have received my Ward Labs report, gotten some advice on pH, and I'll start buttoning down the process. I just want a stress-free introduction to the new method.

 

[doug293cz]

Doug, In my case, if I am doing a full-volume, no sparge, BIAB, isn't conversion efficiency going to be the same as mash efficiency? As there is no lautering process?

No. Lautering is separating the wort from the grains, whether that involves a sparge or not. Lauter efficiency is defined as:

Amount of Sugar Collected in Kettle / Amount of Sugar Created in the Mash​

You can't get all of the wort out of the mash, so you can't get all of the sugar into the kettle, since the wort absorbed by the grain contains the same concentration of sugar as the wort you collect in the BK. Lauter efficiency is always less than 100%, so mash efficiency is always less than conversion efficiency (mash eff = conv eff * lauter eff.) In the case of 100% conversion efficiency (which is possible), mash efficiency is the same as lauter efficiency.

So my First Wort measurement as in your link is essentially the same as my pre-boil gravity, correct?
This is correct for no sparge.

In any case, that's good advice... if I'm a tad low after the recipe's hour mash, I will extend the time.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

^^This.

My very next batch will be my first AG and my first BIAB. I'm planning on getting absolutely horrible efficiency, so I'm going to shoot high (like 1.065 OG assuming only 65% eff). If I hit the common 70% efficiency everyone else gets, I'll just pitch more yeast and enjoy a 7% ABV beer. If I hit the mythical BIAB 80%... well.... okay! 8% ABV! LOL I care, but I don't care. This very first AG/BIAB batch isn't destined for a competition. I'm just learning. If I've got quality ingredients, 1% ABV up or down is fine for me this time. It'll be great. I'll drink it. Not great advice, I know.

Hopefully by the batch after that, I'll have received my Ward Labs report, gotten some advice on pH, and I'll start buttoning down the process. I just want a stress-free introduction to the new method.

That's a great attitude to go into your first all grain with! You can't get a nailed down process on your first attempt.

Brew on

 

[Mothman]

Brew on

I get it! (I think lol).

Thanks a ton for the info. Looking forward to turning grain into beer.