17 day fermentation and counting

[GrandRiverZip]

Today is day 17 of a batch of a 5 gallon extract EdWort Pale Ale I brewed. Except I only had Safale s-04 for yeast. Fermentation started in 24 hours, and has been going for 17 days. I have NOT taken a hydrometer reading from it (forgot at OG) and don't want to interrupt brewing now. Temp has been a bit on the low side, 63-66. The krausen is still on top, though less than it was. I moved it today for the first time to increase the temp a bit. I do notice the airlock still showing CO2 production.

This is way longer than any of my previous 6 batches for fermenting. I'm patient and will wait. Will this have a more or less yeasty taste due to longer fermentation?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Malintent]

Neither. "yeasty taste" is from the strain of yeast and how much of the yeast is left in suspension when you rack it out (flocculation). It has nothing to do with length of time of the primary fermentation (attenuation).

 

[shauntraxler]

I'm somewhat new to brewing, but I don't think having a longer primary will impart much of a yeast flavor. I mean, sure, it is sitting on the cake longer, but I think when you rack off (lol...rack off) to the secondary you'll only be taking the still-suspended yeast with it. Also, I have never used it, but I wouldn't think S-04 will impart too heavy a flavor, especially fermented at ~65 degrees.

I would think yeast flavors come from esters and the yeast itself. Of which you shouldn't have much of either... But again... I'm relatively new and I could definitely be wrong.

 

[Revvy]

I have NOT taken a hydrometer reading from it (forgot at OG) and don't want to interrupt brewing now.

Dan

Then you DON'T really know that you have fermentation or not....even krausen on top isn't indication.....You can't "interupt" fermentation by taking a grav reading, all you can interrupt is your airlock bublling which it sounds like you are misinterpreting as fermentation....Airlock bubbling, even krausen are not the same thing as fermention....

The airlock is NOT a magical fermentation tool or gauge. Your beer will ferment regardless of whether you use an airlock or not. ALL an airlock is is a vent, a valve to release excess co2. Nothing more. It's not even a gauge of fermentation.

All it is is some way to let gas escape from your beer so you don't blow the lid off your fermenter and paint your ceiling with beer. Lots of folks don't even use an airlock, some even just cover their fermenters with tin foil or plexiglass. Half my fermentations have no airlock activity whatsoever, regardless of buckets or carboys....In fact Northern brewer now has a little rubber valve that fits in the grommet hole and just lets excess co2 out. No need for an airlock (which is good for folks trying to do temp controlled fermentation in dorm fridges and stuff where there might not be room for either a tall airlock or a hose.

Which goes to show how inconsequential to the actual fermentation process they really are.

But you really really really need to get a hydrometer. You can't go by looks alone....I can't stress this enough.

Airlocks bubble or they don't it doesn't mean anything is wrong.

Half my beers NEVER have a bubbling airlock, but I've never had a fermentation not happen before.

Airlock bubbling and fermentation are not the same thing. You have to separate that from your mindset. Airlock bubbling can be a sign of fermentation, but not a good one, because the airlock will often blip or not blip for various other reasons...

If your airlock was bubbling and stopped---It doesn't mean fermentation has stopped.

If you airlock isn't bubbling, it doesn't mean your fermentation hasn't started....

If your airlock starts bubbling, it really doesn't matter.

If your airlock NEVER bubbles, it doesn't mean anything is wrong or right.

Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge, it is a VALVE to release excess co2. If it bubbles it is because it needs to, if it doesn't, it just means it doesn't need too...

Often an airlock will bubble if the fermenter has been disturbed in some way, like a change in temperature, change in atmospheric pressure, the cat brushing against it, opening it up to take a hydro reading, any number of things. The co2 has sat in stasis for a period of time, then it was disturbed so it is not longer at equilibrium with everything else now. And therefore it is blipping in your airlock...

Or you could indeed have fermentation happening, since maybe your fermentation was laggy and a change in temp restarted fermentation.

Airlock bubbling only tells you that co2 is coming out of the airlock, it is not telling you why. And there's various reasons. That's why it's not a good idea to equate airlock bubbling with fermentation...It could be because it is fermenting, or it could not be because of fermentation...so it's not a trustworthy tool.

And airlocks sometimes bubble or they don't. And airlock is a valve, a vent to release excess co2...NOT a fermentation gauge. It's important to make that distinction, or you'll be panicking everytime a an airlock doesn't bubble, or stops bubbling.

Fermentation is not always "dynamic," just because you don't SEE anything happening, doesn't mean that any-thing's wrong,, and also doesn't mean that the yeast are still not working diligently away, doing what they've been doing for over 4,000 years.

external visual cues like airlock bubbling and even krausen development are not as good or accurate indicator of what is happening "under the hood"....and why the one consistant indicator is gravity reading.

All krausens look different, even using the same yeast on different batches.

The amount of krausen can vary for whatever reason, it can come quick and depart quickly or it can linger long after fermentation is complete, and it all be normal.
or example, I had a wit beer that I pitched bottle harvested Hoegaarden yeast on Dec. 26th, LAST YEAR that STILL had a 2" krausen on it three weeks later. I took a grav reading and it had reached terminal gravity, 1.010. So the beer was done, but the krausen still lingered. I finally gently swirled the beer to knock it down, and let it settle for another week before I bottled it. I'm not normally a fan of knocking them down, and usually let it do it naturally.

But some yeasts are low flocculating, and may have a difficult time. I figured since mine was bottle harvested, and I had pitched the starter at high krausen, maybe it was "genetically mutated" with the flocculation "gene" off or something. So I gently swirled it and let it fall.

I brewed another batch with another mason jars worth of that yeast several months later and had the same thing happen.

Beligan wits are notoriously long krausening.

That's why it's fruitless to try to use those things as indicators, they aren't consistent from one batch to another....even with the same yeast.

That's why you need to take a gravity reading to know how your fermentation is going, NOT go by airlocks, or size of krausen, or a calendar, the horoscope or the phases of the moon (those things in my mind are equally accurate).

The most important tool you can use is a hydrometer. It's the only way you will truly know when your beer is ready...airlock bubbles and other things are faulty.

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

So all you know is that your airlock is bubbling, and that you have krasuen...NOT that your beer is fermenting or not.

 

[Revvy]

This is way longer than any of my previous 6 batches for fermenting. I'm patient and will wait. Will this have a more or less yeasty taste due to longer fermentation?

Thanks,

Dan

Actually I've found my beers have LESS yeasty taste after long primaries.

Fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leaving our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.
We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one,so we really don't need to go over it again, all the info you need is here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

 

[GrandRiverZip]

Thanks Revvy, I don't plan to bottle or keg this batch for a while, so I will likely take a reading in a week or so to see if it has reached terminal velocity. The visuals of the fermentation process have all followed similar for me up to this point, and this one is longer lasting, that's why I asked... I understand hydrometer readings are the only true indicator of whether the beer is still fermenting. I also understand the whole primary/secondary debate, I have only a few batches under my belt, the only reason I used my secondary was to free up my primary for another batch, by putting the beer into a smaller fermenter.

 

[tincob]

...In fact Northern brewer now has a little rubber valve that fits in the grommet hole and just lets excess co2 out. No need for an airlock (which is good for folks trying to do temp controlled fermentation in dorm fridges and stuff where there might not be room for either a tall airlock or a hose.

Revvy, do you have an exact name, part number or a link for this rubber valve?

I checked on Northern Brewer and couldn't spot it.

This would work out great for my fermentation freezer since I need to attach a wooden collet to get a second fermenter in there. With this rubber valve on a bucket grommet, I may be able to get away without doing any additional work.