06.06.06 We should start planning now....

[Rhoobarb]

Almost forgot... dry hopping was mentioned before. Any thoughts? I'm all for it. I've dry hopped with an ounce of Willamette 3-4 times before and liked the results.

 

[DeejayDebi]

Recipe sounds good.

How about HBT's Armageddon Ale for a name?

Okay, this will probably get shot down, but how about "Rise of the Phoenix"?

I threw some Phoenix hops in the recipe--don't know much about them but I wanted to incorporate an English hop in it and this one seems as good (or better) than any. I have no experience with them (other than just ordering a pound from Hops Direct ), so it is a mystery to me as what they add to a recipe.

A rough draft--PLEASE contribute. I'm no recipe expert. I'm not so concerned with color right now--we can tweak that. I got as close as I could to a blood red though. Promash almost makes it look brown, but I have faith.
The wheat is in there for head retention--caramel wheat sounded nice. Brown sugar was added to up the ABV and add some depth. Yeast, I'm going to break up the batch and pitcha few different kinds, but based on research I'm thinking WLP007 will be a nice fit. we will try others too.

NOTE: I am extremely reluctant to post this, as I'd like as much "out of the box" thinking and input as possible. This has to be a unique recipe.

A ProMash Recipe Report

-------------------------------
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.50
Anticipated OG: 1.077 Plato: 18.59
Anticipated SRM: 20.1
Anticipated IBU: 75.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.7 6.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
16.1 2.50 lbs. Flaked Rye America 1.034 2
16.1 2.50 lbs. Rye Malt America 1.030 4
12.9 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
6.5 1.00 lbs. Brown Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 60
3.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.033 120
3.2 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.2 0.50 lbs. Caramel Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 46
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Chinook Whole 13.00 46.7 60 min.
1.00 oz. Phoenix Pellet 8.50 17.1 30 min.
1.00 oz. Phoenix Pellet 8.50 9.0 15 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.0 5 min.

Yeast
WLP007

 

[The Happy Mug]

It appears Pumbaa and I play the same game.

Incidently, why not use two yeast strains together?

 

[Pumbaa]

Anticipated SRM: 20.1
Anticipated IBU: 75.7

both way to high

a SRM above 15 IMHO is brown head over the te recipator and just look around. If you want to call it red go ahead but brown is brown

and 75IBU?
WOAH even if you are looking ot have it a cross bread of a IPA and a Wee Heavy I still think it's a bit high. The top end of the Wee Heavy range is 30 (ok 30 is actually for a 80/ or export, strong scottish is 25 but I'm trying to find a middle ground) and the bottom end for IPA's is like 40

with the complexity of the beer we are looking at I think that slamming in all the hops we are looking at will litterally just muddy things up too much

oh yeah and the OG needs to come up a bit, barely in the wee heavy range at 1.077

take the recipie above and make a few changes I think we can get the SRM and OG to where I think it should be. Plug this in once let me know what ya think

• 8lbs of 2 row
• 2.5lbs of flaked rye
• 2.5lbs of rye malt
• 2lbs of munich
• .5lbs of crystal 120
• .5lbs of Special B
• get rid of the brown sugar - it's just making it too dark
• throw in 3lbs of honey - just plain generic honey - dont want to muddy up things too much
• take the wheat malt out of the boil totally - the one you picked makes it dark again - instead add just plan old wheat malt in it for priming, it's only half a pound which is what I use for priming anyway

I think I am looking at a SRM there of about 15ish
a OG of about 1.084

cut the hops back to . . .

• .5oz Chinook for 60
• .75oz Phenoix for 30
• 1oz Phenoix for 8
• 1oz Willamette for 5

gives us a IBU of about 42

if I am remembering right I read somewhere that when ya throw hops in at the beginning of the boil you boil off all the taste and aroma anyway and you get the best taste from tem at 8 minute mark or something . . . I know I saw a chart somewhere. Anyone else remember seeing a graph for this here or in BYO or somewhere?

I think the key to balance on this one will be proper aging and not giving everyone a bitter beer face like the Keystone comercial. My guess is 3 months after bottling it will be rady and 100% kick ass

 

[Pumbaa]

plug in 12lbs of 2 row while your at it . . . a OG of 1.1 would be fun

drops IBU's of what I posted to 39.9 but tell me that isnt a beutiful red . . . I dare ya

 

[Rhoobarb]

Well, I went back and took Dude's original recipe, tweeked it a little, then ran it through ProMash. I got to thinking that a really high-gravity beer would need more time to mature and, since this is a 6-6-06 beer, it would be nice to be able to consume it in June. I also thought, "Hell, it'll be June. Do we really want to drink a really heavy beer on a hot day in June? What's below will still put us in the 9.5%-10% ABV range.

So, I propose this. My changes/ additions are in green. By no means am I saying "this is what we should brew dammit!" I'm just looking to keep this very good idea alive! The color is at the top of an Irish Red Ale; the hops are still very high. Discuss :

06.06.06
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00
Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 6.00
Anticipated OG: 1.087 Plato: 20.91
Anticipated SRM: 17.7
Anticipated IBU: 69.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
-----------------------------
Grain/Extract/Sugar
Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------
6.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
2.50 lbs. Flaked Rye America 1.034 2
2.50 lbs. Rye Malt America 1.030 4
2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 6
1.00 lbs. Smoked(Bamberg)Germany 1.037 9
1.00 lbs. Brown Sugar (dark)Generic 1.046 60
0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------
1.00 oz. Chinook Whole 13.00 49.1 60 min.
1.00 oz. Northern Brewer Whole 9.00 17.3 30 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.1 5 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 0.0 0 min. (dry hop)

Yeast
-----------------------------
White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale

 

[rewster451]

I just sampled my Irish Red, because I racked it. The Dingeman's Aromatic is something I think will lend a bit of refreshingness to a beer as heavy as what you're talking about. The Cara Red needs to be stepped up from what I posted, maybe 8oz., to get the right color, but with rye, I don't know. Maybe what I have will work.
As far as hoppiness, I do think holding off a little won't hurt anything. I love hops, don't get me wrong, but too much complexity in every direction will leave your mouth spinning. Unless people can find a way to balance everything out, and hell, maybe we can. When is the proposed brew date for this beer? I mean, it has to ferment, mellow, and for me, since I don't keg, it has to bottle condition.

 

[rewster451]

Oh, BTW, whatever we decide on, I'm brewing it.

 

[rewster451]

Also, I'm all about the suggestions to change brown sugar to honey, and I think lighter crystals are the way to go. IMHO.
Again, I'm just offering what help I can. I understand that this beer is at the whim of the collective, and I absolutely do not consider myself an expert.

 

[Pumbaa]

if we go with the recipie as I have it at 12lbs of the 2 row and 3lbs of honey I think it would need to be bottled by 01 Mar

 

[Rhoobarb]

If we go with 12 lbs. of grain and 3 lbs. of honey for this recipe, we're looking at 1.135 OG - we'd be entering Barley Wine territory. I like the idea of adding Aromatic malt. I'd drop the CaraRed only b/c I've never seen it, so I wonder how readily available it is for everyone here. Plus, 3 lbs. of honey could get pricey - especially if we use Orange Blossom (my personal favorite for my ales ) or a regional/organic, etc...

What if we strike a sort of compromise and do this:

1. go with 8 lbs. of 2-row
2. 1.5 lbs. honey
3. delete the rye malt altogether
4. up the flaked rye to 3 lbs.
5. add 1/2 lb of Aromatic
6. reduce the first three hop additions to 3/4 oz.?

That would put us at an est. OG of 1.095, IBU of 50.4 and color at 13.9.

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

i'm no expert by any means, but with a gravity that high, i think y'all might need a lot more IBU's to balance out the sweetness. you might need to be up around the 90 IBU range......

 

[Dude]

i'm no expert by any means, but with a gravity that high, i think y'all might need a lot more IBU's to balance out the sweetness. you might need to be up around the 90 IBU range......

That's what I started with. I totally agree on that DeRoux! However I'll compromise to be a team playa!
I think somewhere between a .75:1 or 1:1 BU:GU ratio is goal for this recipe, but......I'm game to trying it lower.

I still think it'll need lots of hops to keep a balance.

I like what I'm seeing come together though...

One thing I'm wondering--has anyone used brown sugar in a brew? I'm guessing it will leave a subtle molasses"ey" flavor--I'm intrigued by that--especially in a red. I'll go with honey but honestly I think it would be better with brown sugar.

The rye malt/flakes mix is something I took from someone on the board who brewed rye beers before. The reasoning in the thread made sense so I stuck wth that. I'll try to find the thread....

Rhoobarb...can you update the recipe again with your changes?

 

[Rhoobarb]

.... Rhoobarb...can you update the recipe again with your changes?

Here ya go! I subbed the honey for the brown sugar to bring down the color and OG. I've done a Newcaslte/Nut Brown Ale with dark brown sugar before and it really works for the style. I'm just not sure about a Red - I think it might be too sweet and (according to ProMash) too brown. Plus, I've used a pound of Orange Blossom honey in every Red I've ever done and, IMHO, it just works so well in a Red!

BTW, I'm all for going back to the higher hopping rates. I think you guys may be right on that count. Here it is with the changes:

06.06.06
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
09-D Scottish And Irish Ale, Irish Red Ale
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 17.00
Anticipated OG: 1.095 Plato: 22.72
Anticipated SRM: 13.9
Anticipated IBU: 50.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------
Grain/Extract/Sugar
Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
----------------
8.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
3.00 lbs. Flaked Rye America 1.034 2
2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 6
1.50 lbs. Honey 1.042 0
1.00 lbs. Smoked(Bamberg)Germany 1.037 9
0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 19
0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
----------------
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
----------------
0.75 oz. Chinook Whole 13.00 35.6 60 min.
0.75 oz. Northern Brewer Whole 9.00 12.6 30 min.
0.75 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 2.3 5 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 0.0 0 min. (dry hop)

Yeast
----------------
White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale

 

[DeRoux's Broux]

we use brown sugar in several brews. Imperial IPA's, ESB's....i don't think it makes a big difference, but it does add a touch of bite.

 

[Pumbaa]

If we go with 12 lbs. of grain and 3 lbs. of honey for this recipe, we're looking at 1.135 OG - we'd be entering Barley Wine territory

when I upped the 2 row and put in the 3lbs of honey I also took out the carmel wheat

ended up with a OG of 1.111

I still think you guys are way over doing it on the hops. If you want a Scottish Heavy crossed with a IPA wouldnt it make sense to try and meet both standards? 40 IBU would seem right to me here since it's the top end of the Scottish Heavy and the low end of the IPA, maybe 45. Using a high gravity scottish ale yeast you are gonna ferment a lot of the sweetness out and then if you let it age properly it will be fine. If you go with a IBU thats too high it may be fine out of the secondary but after some time in the bottles I think it will be too much. Patence should be the key here.

If dry hopping doesnt up the IBU's (I dunno I have never dry hopped yet) maybe thats the way to go but I honestly dunno.


when I made the changes I proposed I started with this as the base . . .

A ProMash Recipe Report

-------------------------------
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.50
Anticipated OG: 1.077 Plato: 18.59
Anticipated SRM: 20.1
Anticipated IBU: 75.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.7 6.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
16.1 2.50 lbs. Flaked Rye America 1.034 2
16.1 2.50 lbs. Rye Malt America 1.030 4
12.9 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
6.5 1.00 lbs. Brown Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 60
3.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.033 120
3.2 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.2 0.50 lbs. Caramel Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 46
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Chinook Whole 13.00 46.7 60 min.
1.00 oz. Phoenix Pellet 8.50 17.1 30 min.
1.00 oz. Phoenix Pellet 8.50 9.0 15 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.0 5 min.

Yeast
WLP007

then suggested this

8lbs of 2 row
2.5lbs of flaked rye
2.5lbs of rye malt
2lbs of munich
.5lbs of crystal 120
.5lbs of Special B
get rid of the brown sugar - it's just making it too dark
throw in 3lbs of honey - just plain generic honey - dont want to muddy up things too much
take the wheat malt out of the boil totally - the one you picked makes it dark again - instead add just plan old wheat malt in it for priming, it's only half a pound which is what I use for priming anyway

I think I am looking at a SRM there of about 15ish
a OG of about 1.084

cut the hops back to . . .

.5oz Chinook for 60
.75oz Phenoix for 30
1oz Phenoix for 8
1oz Willamette for 5

gives us a IBU of about 42

I upped it to 12lbs like the post after that . . . if we did do the 12lbs I think we could then handle .75oz of the Chinook since our IBU will go down a touch, but I never posted it

 

[Dude]

when I upped the 2 row and put in the 3lbs of honey I also took out the carmel wheat

ended up with a OG of 1.111

I still think you guys are way over doing it on the hops. If you want a Scottish Heavy crossed with a IPA wouldnt it make sense to try and meet both standards? 40 IBU would seem right to me here since it's the top end of the Scottish Heavy and the low end of the IPA, maybe 45. Using a high gravity scottish ale yeast you are gonna ferment a lot of the sweetness out and then if you let it age properly it will be fine. If you go with a IBU thats too high it may be fine out of the secondary but after some time in the bottles I think it will be too much. Patence should be the key here.

If dry hopping doesnt up the IBU's (I dunno I have never dry hopped yet) maybe thats the way to go but I honestly dunno.

Whoa! 1.111??? Nahh...we need to get that down or we'll have to enter it for 07.07.07.....

I think we should stay around the 1.075-1.085 region.

I thought we came to a conlusion it should be like an imperial red. Just to define imperial , this sounds accurate to me, from the BJCP guidelines. "The adjective "Imperial" is arbitrary and simply implies a stronger version of an IPA; "double," "extra," "extreme," or any other variety of adjectives would be equally valid. "

Dry hopping won't add IBUs.

If we take a basic red and "imperialize" it, I think target IBUs should be near a 1:1 BU;GU ratio. I can definitley go with less than that, but I guarantee on the second experimental batch we'll be upping the IBUs to balance it.

 

[Dude]

Can we add a little c120L to give it a bit more depth?

With that, and based on most inputs....this is it so far?

I'm liking it boys.....still lower yet on the hops/IBUs? Is everyone fairly keen on being able to get these ingredients and happy with the recipe? Who plans on brewing it?

06.06.06
A ProMash Recipe Report
BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
09-D Scottish And Irish Ale, Irish Red Ale
Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.060
Min IBU: 17 Max IBU: 28
Min Clr: 9 Max Clr: 18 Color in SRM, Lovibond
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.50
Anticipated OG: 1.079 Plato: 19.11
Anticipated SRM: 17.2
Anticipated IBU: 53.9
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
38.7 6.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
19.4 3.00 lbs. Flaked Rye America 1.034 2
12.9 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
9.7 1.50 lbs. Honey 1.042 0
6.5 1.00 lbs. Smoked(Bamberg) Germany 1.037 9
3.2 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
3.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
3.2 0.50 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.2 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L America 1.033 120
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Chinook Whole 13.00 34.7 60 min.
1.00 oz. Northern Brewer Whole 9.00 16.3 30 min.
1.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 3.0 5 min.
2.00 oz. Willamette Whole 5.00 0.0 Dry Hop

Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale

Notes
-----
Secondary on oak chips

 

[Tony]

Also, I'm all about the suggestions to change brown sugar to honey, and I think lighter crystals are the way to go...

I think honey is indeed the way to go. It will help cut the color down from being a true brown. The only dark color remain will be Special B. Yup, repeating myself...LOL. But we could drop it to 1/4 pound, use lighter crystal like rewster said, and will be able to eek out a lighter color.

I agree that this one doesnt need to be an Imperial or 1.100 beer. We are using many grains and some good adjuncts, and need to be able to savor the intricate flavors and aromas from this one. No offense, but anyone can add a ton of 2 row or LME and make a strong a$$ beer. I thnk we are on the right track by trying to create a flavorful, unique beer, rather than a toxic on. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dude]

I think honey is indeed the way to go. It will help cut the color down from being a true brown. The only dark color remain will be Special B. Yup, repeating myself...LOL. But we could drop it to 1/4 pound, use lighter crystal like rewster said, and will be able to eek out a lighter color.

I agree that this one doesnt need to be an Imperial or 1.100 beer. We are using many grains and some good adjuncts, and need to be able to savor the intricate flavors and aromas from this one. No offense, but anyone can add a ton of 2 row or LME and make a strong a$$ beer. I thnk we are on the right track by trying to create a flavorful, unique beer, rather than a toxic on. Just my 2 cents.

So what about the last recipe posted? You like that?

I should drop the crystal 120L? That color seems close (to me) even with it...

 

[SwAMi75]

If you want a Scottish Heavy crossed with a IPA wouldnt it make sense to try and meet both standards?

I think you're getting crossed up....the goal is not a wee heavy crossed with an IPA. At least I haven't read that. The original goal was something like an imperial red.

As for color, I wouldn't mind it in the darker range, but I'm pretty easy to please. I'll also third DeRoux's point. A beer this big can handle the IBU's. A 1:1 BU/GU ratio is considered "balanced," isn't it?

 

[Pumbaa]

we are both kinda screwed up . . .

your right with the imperial/IPA it was mentioned in post 1

but Wee heavy/IPA were mentioned in post 2

but I'm ez

if we do the imperial red then up the IBUs and lets ge this nailed down

 

[david_42]

How about EKG replacing Willamette at 5 minutes? They compliment each other nicely.

 

[Dude]

How about EKG replacing Willamette at 5 minutes? They compliment each other nicely.

I don't get it...Why don't we just dry hop with EKG then?

Not sure I understand....

 

[rewster451]

I'm down with doing it a little hoppy as long as the hops are like Goldings or something slightly understated. Nothing in your face like Centennials. I understand that the concencus is against the Cara Red, but I don't know why you're having trouble finding it. NorthernBrewer has it, not that I'm endorsing them, but they have everything.
I also agree that an OG of 1.1 is just too high. We'll be mellowing that bastard out for years. 1.07-1.08 seems perfectly reasonable.
Now, given that we're at that kind of gravity, brewing an imperial red, what kind of yeast are we using? I've heard a lot of talk about Safeale and WP(?), but I don't know how to equate that to Wyeast, which I pretty much use exlusively. I understand they have equivelants? Either way, after reading the posts, I'm not sure we're at an agreement about yeasts. Dude, so far your recipies seem to be heading in a really good direction. Way to take all our rambles and put them down to something solid.
As someone who has used brown sugar, it does add a flavor something like mollasses. Honey adds a dryness. Given that we're drinking this in June, I think dryness rather than syrupiness is a good quality to have.
My 2 cents.

 

[Tony]

So what about the last recipe posted? You like that?

I should drop the crystal 120L? That color seems close (to me) even with it...

I like the recipe...but dont see the Rye Malt anymore...

 

[Dude]

I like the recipe...but dont see the Rye Malt anymore...

Yeah, it was suggested to drop it completely if we were using flaked rye. I mentioned that we should split malted and flaked rye 50/50 cause you or someone mentioned it in another thread. Rhoobarb hasn't been back on the thread since so maybe he agrees to split it.....I'm just going with the flow....

 

[Tony]

... As someone who has used brown sugar, it does add a flavor something like mollasses. Honey adds a dryness. Given that we're drinking this in June, I think dryness rather than syrupiness is a good quality to have.
My 2 cents.

Good point Rewster...GOOD point!

 

[Dude]

I'm down with doing it a little hoppy as long as the hops are like Goldings or something slightly understated. Nothing in your face like Centennials. I understand that the concencus is against the Cara Red, but I don't know why you're having trouble finding it. NorthernBrewer has it, not that I'm endorsing them, but they have everything.
I also agree that an OG of 1.1 is just too high. We'll be mellowing that bastard out for years. 1.07-1.08 seems perfectly reasonable.
Now, given that we're at that kind of gravity, brewing an imperial red, what kind of yeast are we using? I've heard a lot of talk about Safeale and WP(?), but I don't know how to equate that to Wyeast, which I pretty much use exlusively. I understand they have equivelants? Either way, after reading the posts, I'm not sure we're at an agreement about yeasts. Dude, so far your recipies seem to be heading in a really good direction. Way to take all our rambles and put them down to something solid.
As someone who has used brown sugar, it does add a flavor something like mollasses. Honey adds a dryness. Given that we're drinking this in June, I think dryness rather than syrupiness is a good quality to have.
My 2 cents.

WLP028 was the overwhelming choice. It seems to fit nicely. A description is somewhere in this thread.

When I initially mentioned brown sugar, that is the flavor I thought it would give, molasses. It sounds good to me instead of honey, but I'll go with honey for the group recipe. I still think brown sugar would be better, despite the color. We could always use light brown sugar.

 

[rewster451]

So would Wyeast 1728 be a good enough substitute? I like the idea of all of us using the same yeast, but I've just had tremendously better success with Wyeast than White Labs.