CFC vs IC vs Plate

So much information!! I am on verge of deciding which way to go. I am trying to figure out all of the pros and cons of each system. When I go AG(soon) I will be doing both 5 and 10 gallon brews(in a keggle) but probably more often doing 5 gallon. Any other additions to this? Any of my pros/cons wrong? If so please let me know and explain soI will have a better understanding. I don't really want want to get a pump(the spending never ends) but think that if i go with a plate or CFC then it is important. It seems that a gravity fed CFC takes the same time to chill as an IC...yes???? Thanks for your thoughts.
IC:
1) easiest to use
2) cheapest (but only by a little)
3) easiest to build
4) Slowest to cool
5) waste more water
6) no pump necessary

CFC:
1) faster to chill wort
2) harder to clean
3) need a pump to get fastest cooling
4)more expensive
5) a little harder to build
6)waste less water

Plate
1) easy to use
2) hardest to clean
3) uses least water
4) most expensive
5) can't be DIY(or can it??)
6) pump essential

I inquired about this an the LHBS and the owner told me if you do not have a pump for a plate chiller or CFC then it is not worth it. He suggested sticking with my Immersion chiller and creating a whirlpool in the opposite direction of the water flow through the coils of the IC. I tried it last weekend and it was by far the quickest I have ever chilled my wort to under 80.

I had a good experience with my CFC before I dismantled into a IC for my keggle. I want to say it cooled pretty quick, but that was a while back.

Why did I go back to IC? Because I screwed up and order 1/4" instead of 3/8" in turn, I made a long 40' coil with that. Not the best but it certainly works well.

check out www.mrmalty.com His immersion chiller is faster than either of the other 2 and he makes an interesting point.

When you shut off the burner, you want to get all of the wort under 140 degrees as quickly as possible. When you pump your hot wort through a chiller, all of the unchilled wort is sitting for quite a while at just under boiling temps. With an immersion chiller, you lower the whole kettle temp quickly. Especially if you whirlpool through the chiller as he describes.

Linc

I have a plate chiller and do not have a pump. It works great and I can chill ten gallons of wort in about 10 min using gravity alone...as fast as I can get it through the line it is chilled. This is with the water just barely cracked on, if I put it on half way it will be at lager temps. Also if the price of copper continues to rise plate chillers may soon be the cheapest route to go.

I put the CFC and plate at about the same in every catagory except...

The plate is sexier, smaller, and can't handle ANY hop particulate.
Both can be run with gravity, but not having a pump makes them more of a pain to sanitize and increases the time it takes to get your wort down under 140F. After you decide you want a pump anyway, I think they make a lot of sense.

In my case, I have the CFC use down to a science and it's certainly no more trouble than plonking an IC into the kettle.

Bobby_M said:

The plate is sexier, smaller, and can't handle ANY hop particulate.

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How about cold break material, is that a problem?

Now that I think about it, since the wort is still hot as it hits the plate chiller, it must actually form within the chiller, no?

The only reason cold break would be entering the plate is if you recirculate but yeah, it forms inside. I don't think it's a problem otherwise no one would use them at all.

I run my CFC with gravity and I've had no problems, I can dial in the cooling water so I get the output temp that I want and It drains fairly quickly (I drain down to my basement so I don't have to carry carboys down the steps) so with a good 8' drop it pulls pretty good.

Bobby_M said:

The plate is sexier, smaller, and can't handle ANY hop particulate.

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To be honest size had A LOT to do with the choice of chiller I bought. It may sound stupid, but I have a tight spot to work in and appreciate that I could mount it out of the way.

missing link said:

When you pump your hot wort through a chiller, all of the unchilled wort is sitting for quite a while at just under boiling temps.

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Well, not necessarily. My ground water is cold enough that I can cool a 10 gallon batch in 5-8 minutes, so it's not sitting at high temps long at all!

I built a CFC chiller and it works very well. I dont' really see a problem with the temps beign at just under boiling for say 10 minutes (less actually) as you just had them boiling for like an hour. What's the big deal? As long as the wort isn't slowly cooling off, letting it sit at just under boiling for a couple of minutes isn't going to hurt it at all.

I hooked my CFC up to the sink and gravity fed the wort. I actually had to trickle the water to keep the wort from coming out too cold. I did not time the process, but it probably took around 10 minutes, and I could have gone faster I think.

That said, the plate chiller on the wall looks really sweet and handy.

I built my CFC for like $20 using some copper I bought years ago, and a length of used garden hose (plus like $8 of new copper fittings).

missing link said:

check out www.mrmalty.com His immersion chiller is faster than either of the other 2 and he makes an interesting point.

When you shut off the burner, you want to get all of the wort under 140 degrees as quickly as possible. When you pump your hot wort through a chiller, all of the unchilled wort is sitting for quite a while at just under boiling temps. With an immersion chiller, you lower the whole kettle temp quickly. Especially if you whirlpool through the chiller as he describes.

Linc

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I like this system. It does have a pump though. I guess I could get a whirpool going w/ the spoon. thanks for the link.

Tonedef131 said:

I have a plate chiller and do not have a pump. It works great and I can chill ten gallons of wort in about 10 min using gravity alone...as fast as I can get it through the line it is chilled. This is with the water just barely cracked on, if I put it on half way it will be at lager temps. Also if the price of copper continues to rise plate chillers may soon be the cheapest route to go.

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good point about the cost. Good to here you have such a fast gravity system. I didn't think it would be so fast through a plate.

I have a plate chiller.. and i used it many times before i had a pump, no problem..

and it doesnt seem that hard to clean either.. prolly easier than the cfc..

Bobby_M said:

The plate is sexier, smaller, and can't handle ANY hop particulate.

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I am an older guy so sexier is better
I don't like the idea about clogging up w/ hops. I use whole leaf usually and there is always a few leafs floating around.

conpewter said:

I run my CFC with gravity and I've had no problems, I can dial in the cooling water so I get the output temp that I want and It drains fairly quickly (I drain down to my basement so I don't have to carry carboys down the steps) so with a good 8' drop it pulls pretty good.

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I like this idea using 2 floors. I have wondered about this method. I will take this into account especially if I don't have to carry full carboy downstairs. Good suggestion.

Jester369 said:

Well, not necessarily. My ground water is cold enough that I can cool a 10 gallon batch in 5-8 minutes, so it's not sitting at high temps long at all!

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My ground is cold until July and August. Your northern location makes this perfect for you

aekdbbop said:

I have a plate chiller.. and i used it many times before i had a pump, no problem..

and it doesnt seem that hard to clean either.. prolly easier than the cfc..

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easier than a cfc! I know of someone that uses an autoclave to clean his

Cleaning a CFC/Plate is about the same. I put a QD on my garden hose so after chilling, I disconnect from the coolant side of the CFC and plug it directly in to the input of my march pump. I open up the hose and flush out all my hoses, march pump, and CFC in one step. Disconnect and wait for the next brew day. Yup, I leave my hose water inside the pump and CFC.

Next brew day, I run hose water through the system again for 2 minutes. At T-10 in the boil, I recirculate boiling wort through the system until I see the output temp gauge on the CFC hit 210ish for 5 minutes, then I shut the pump down.

That's it.

Homercidal said:

I dont' really see a problem with the temps beign at just under boiling for say 10 minutes (less actually) as you just had them boiling for like an hour. What's the big deal? As long as the wort isn't slowly cooling off, letting it sit at just under boiling for a couple of minutes isn't going to hurt it at all.

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The problem is in hop aroma/taste/ bitterness. By adding that 10 minutes of hot time, you have effectively negated any flameout additions you made to increase your hop aroma/flavor. When you use a CFC you are effectively adding 10-15 minutes to the end of your boil. This can be countered with a hopback, but then you need another piece of equipment.

I am planning to use a hybrid chiller. My plan is to fill my HLT with ice water, place my IC in the ice bath, pump my hot wort through the IC, and recirculate back into the kettle to form a whirlpool. I am hoping to get the best of all the worlds with this plan. I currently use a copper IC and am very happy with it.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

The problem is in hop aroma/taste/ bitterness. By adding that 10 minutes of hot time, you have effectively negated any flameout additions you made to increase your hop aroma/flavor. When you use a CFC you are effectively adding 10-15 minutes to the end of your boil. This can be countered with a hopback, but then you need another piece of equipment.

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Out of curiosity (since I never used an IC) just how fast are you dropping the temps?

There's certainly something to be said about locking in hop aroma with a rapid chill, but I think the detriment of a 5-10 minute chill time might be a little exagerated. It starts becoming a problem if you have to slow your wort flow down due to rising tap temps (I'll be there in about 2-3 weeks). Of course, the counter to this problem is either pumping icewater in or recirculating the CFC output back into the kettle just like you plan to do with your hybrid. The downside the hybrid is potentially how much ice you're going to need.

The other thing to consider is the effort of pulling the heat out of the kettle itself. I know a lot of folks run water on the outside for a while but that would just make a huge mess for me inside my garage and on the brewstand. When you do your chilling completely external to the kettle, you take this out of the picture.

I currently have a 25' 3/8" copper IC that is undersized for my 10g batches. Even with this setup, and my cold northern ground water, I chill to pitching temps in about 12 minutes, I am below 140 degF within 2 minutes.

Bobby_M is correct, cooling the kettle walls makes a huge difference. I soak junk towels in ice water and wipe down the outside of my keggle during cooling.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

I currently have a 25' 3/8" copper IC that is undersized for my 10g batches. Even with this setup, and my cold northern ground water, I chill to pitching temps in about 12 minutes, I am below 140 degF within 2 minutes.

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Cool (no pun intended! ) thanks for the info. I'm probably not going to scrap my plate chiller any time soon, but it's always good to know about the alternatives.

I'd love to see a side by side test done between an IC and CFC (or plate). It's really hard to use anecdotal claims to compare them because there are too many variables like:

Did the IC user stir constantly? What's the exact ground water temp? How many GPM did you run the coolant?

Even with the same size coil, say 3/8" x 25', I would be surprised if either method had a time advantage if you stir the wort really well when using an IC and use the same temp ground water at the same flow rate.

Let's say the goal was to get 10 gallons of wort from boiling to 70F with 55F ground water. If both started at the same time, I think they'd both hit the goal at about 10 minutes. Maybe the IC would take a little longer due to the heat locked in the kettle itself. You might look at the CFC's advantage here in that the wort is already in the fermenter at the end but if you're into keeping cold break out, that's also a disadvantage.

I think the theme going here is that there's really no BEST way.

Bobby_M said:

I think the theme going here is that there's really no BEST way.

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What do the breweries use? probably all 3

A side by side test would be great.

Boerderij Kabouter said:

I currently have a 25' 3/8" copper IC that is undersized for my 10g batches. Even with this setup, and my cold northern ground water, I chill to pitching temps in about 12 minutes, I am below 140 degF within 2 minutes.

Bobby_M is correct, cooling the kettle walls makes a huge difference. I soak junk towels in ice water and wipe down the outside of my keggle during cooling.

Click to expand...

So 50 ft would put it in the range of the CFC and plate I would think. at least with your colder water. I don't know what my water temps are in the summer.
Also why not add hops halfway through the CFC/plate wort chilling process as the wort is still at 210F. Infection?? It could be called post-flameout.

I am planning to use a hybrid chiller. My plan is to fill my HLT with ice water, place my IC in the ice bath, pump my hot wort through the IC, and recirculate back into the kettle to form a whirlpool. I am hoping to get the best of all the worlds with this plan.

Click to expand...

I am planning to give this a try, as well after finishing my build. I have a 600# commercial ice machine, so having enough of that is not a problem. I thought it would save me the expense of a plate / or CFC, at least at first.

If you try it, let us know how it goes, Boerderij Kabouter.

I think I'll work on a CFC with a return that I can clamp onto the kettle that molds over the lip to generate the whirlpool. Then I can take wort from the bottom, return to the top in a whirlpool fashion, and when it's done chilling, I can turn off the coolant water (or pump if doing it from an ice-chest of water/ice) and just maintain the whirlpool for a short bit.

The advantage for me is not lifting the IC and not dripping around with it, and if I build the CFC and put it on a rolling stand (like an IV stand in a hospital) I can bring it where I need it, use it, then take it over to the sink where I can pump cleaner through it for a while, recirc-wise, and get it all spic-n-span with little effort.

balto charlie said:

What do the breweries use? probably all 3

A side by side test would be great.

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Breweries use plate chillers, that is where the idea of the plate chillers we use came from...they are just shrunk down versions. However, theirs can be disassembled to be cleaned and have plates added/removed. The one commercial brewer I talked to about his said that they flush it and cleanse it a bunch after every batch but only take it apart to really descale it once a year.

Yeah, they're called plate and frame exchangers :

The coolest thing about those is that the hot water coming out is actually put into the HLT so it is preheated to conserve energy. I guess that is one of the many advantages to doing like 12 batches a day.