Testing 3 different danstar strains with SMaSH

I am a professional brewer who recently joined a new start up brewery that is still in it's testing phase with a 1 bbl system while our facility and 7 bbl system are being built. Due to our climate (Florida) we have had a ton of issues with shipping, stability, and viability of liquid yeast. As a result we have begun extensive testing on using dry yeast instead of liquid yeast in our production facility. As a whole the tests have gone very well, better then expected actually, and we now are to the point of being able to dial in on a "house strain" that will be used for all three of our core beers and occasionally for seasonals and one-offs. We brewed a simple 1 bbl SMaSH consisting of Briess 2 row and Cascade pellets that was split into three different carboys all housed in the same johnson controlled freezer with different yeast in each: danstar london esb, danstar nottingham, and danstar bry-97 american west coast. As I type this today they are currently about 1 day into their diacetyl rest period. I will keep updating this thread as we go with gravity, ph, aromatics, tastings, visual clarity, and generalized notes. No final result yet but out of the three nottingham appears to be the front runner. Below this sentence I will copy and paste my statistical data from brew day up until my readings from yesterday, which is when I upped the temp to initiate d rest.

SMaSH Yeast Test
Overview: Brew simple 1 bbl Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) low gravity wort to be split into 3 carboys with different yeast pitched in each. Carboys will be stored together and follow same fermentation schedule, as outlined below, with gravity, ph, and taste recorded throughout process. All beers will be kegged, carbed, and bottled per typical SOP.
• 1 BBL expected batch size using 3 vessel 55 gallon Blichmann Brewhouse with external RIMS coil
• All water used is Reverse-Osmosis filtered and UV sterilized
• Standard 5 gallon glass carboys used to visually monitor activity, flocculation, and overall appearance in addition to proper gravity, ph, and taste tests
• Target OG= 1.046, Target FG= 1.010-1.018 (range due to varying attenuation)

Mash (11/11/16):
• 50lb Briess 2 row malt in 29 gallons @ 154-156°F for 60 min total single infusion mash
o RIMS recirculation for first 50 mins with occasional mixing/stirring to maintain mash temp of 154-156°F
o Combined vorlauf & mashout through RIMS recirculation for final 10 mins @ 170°F
o Sparge 12 gallons @ 170°F during transfer to boil kettle
• Pre-boil ph= 5.11

Boil (11/11/16):
• 36 gallon total pre-boil volume + 30mL Birko Anti-foam for 70 min total boil
o 10 min boil off prior to 60 min addition
o 90 grams Cascade pellet 8.3% AA @ 60 mins
o 30 grams Cascade pellet 8.3% AA @ 30 mins
o 14 grams Wyeast Nutrient @ 10 mins
o 13.5 grams whirlfloc @ 10 mins
• 31 gallon post-boil volume including trub
• Post-boil ph= 5.09
• Measured OG= 1.046 @ room temp

Fermentation (11/11/16-11/21/16):
• Batch split into 3 separate carboys, different yeast pitched in each
o 2 packs Danstar London ESB, rehydrated
o 2 packs Danstar Nottingham, rehydrated
o 2 packs Danstar BRY-97 American West Coast, rehydrated
• All carboys follow same fermentation schedule regardless of attenuation, flocculation, ph, and taste
o 4 days @ 66°F (11/11/16-11/15/16) “primary”
o 3 days @ 70°F (11/15/16-11/18/16) “diacetyl rest”
o 3 days @ 31°F (11/18/16-11/21/16) “cold crash”
 Typically 2 days cold crash, this batch fell over a weekend

• Notes on “primary”
o London ESB started very fast but died down after 24-48 hrs (visual, not by gravity)
o Nottingham started very fast and maintained steady activity (visual, not by gravity)
o BRY-97 very slow start and maintained slow activity (visual, not by gravity)

• Gravity and ph findings after “primary” (11/15/16, start of diacetyl rest)
o London ESB
 Gravity= 1.020
 Ph= 3.94
 Clean (no off flavors), noticeably under-attenuated, murky appearance
o Nottingham
 Gravity= 1.016
 Ph= 3.77
 Clean (no off flavors), dry, subtle fruitiness, very clear appearance
o BRY-97 American West Coast
 Gravity= 1.022
 Ph= 4.17
 Very sweet, noticeably under-attenuated, clear appearance

tri_clamp_ninja said:

I am a professional brewer who recently joined a new start up brewery that is still in it's testing phase with a 1 bbl system while our facility and 7 bbl system are being built. Due to our climate (Florida) we have had a ton of issues with shipping, stability, and viability of liquid yeast. As a result we have begun extensive testing on using dry yeast instead of liquid yeast in our production facility. As a whole the tests have gone very well, better then expected actually, and we now are to the point of being able to dial in on a "house strain" that will be used for all three of our core beers and occasionally for seasonals and one-offs. We brewed a simple 1 bbl SMaSH consisting of Briess 2 row and Cascade pellets that was split into three different carboys all housed in the same johnson controlled freezer with different yeast in each: danstar london esb, danstar nottingham, and danstar bry-97 american west coast. As I type this today they are currently about 1 day into their diacetyl rest period. I will keep updating this thread as we go with gravity, ph, aromatics, tastings, visual clarity, and generalized notes. No final result yet but out of the three nottingham appears to be the front runner. Below this sentence I will copy and paste my statistical data from brew day up until my readings from yesterday, which is when I upped the temp to initiate d rest.

SMaSH Yeast Test
Overview: Brew simple 1 bbl Single Malt and Single Hop (SMaSH) low gravity wort to be split into 3 carboys with different yeast pitched in each. Carboys will be stored together and follow same fermentation schedule, as outlined below, with gravity, ph, and taste recorded throughout process. All beers will be kegged, carbed, and bottled per typical SOP.
•1 BBL expected batch size using 3 vessel 55 gallon Blichmann Brewhouse with external RIMS coil
•All water used is Reverse-Osmosis filtered and UV sterilized
•Standard 5 gallon glass carboys used to visually monitor activity, flocculation, and overall appearance in addition to proper gravity, ph, and taste tests
•Target OG= 1.046, Target FG= 1.010-1.018 (range due to varying attenuation)

Mash (11/11/16):
•50lb Briess 2 row malt in 29 gallons @ 154-156°F for 60 min total single infusion mash
oRIMS recirculation for first 50 mins with occasional mixing/stirring to maintain mash temp of 154-156°F
oCombined vorlauf & mashout through RIMS recirculation for final 10 mins @ 170°F
oSparge 12 gallons @ 170°F during transfer to boil kettle
•Pre-boil ph= 5.11

Boil (11/11/16):
•36 gallon total pre-boil volume + 30mL Birko Anti-foam for 70 min total boil
o10 min boil off prior to 60 min addition
o90 grams Cascade pellet 8.3% AA @ 60 mins
o30 grams Cascade pellet 8.3% AA @ 30 mins
o14 grams Wyeast Nutrient @ 10 mins
o13.5 grams whirlfloc @ 10 mins
•31 gallon post-boil volume including trub
•Post-boil ph= 5.09
•Measured OG= 1.046 @ room temp

Fermentation (11/11/16-11/21/16):
•Batch split into 3 separate carboys, different yeast pitched in each
o2 packs Danstar London ESB, rehydrated
o2 packs Danstar Nottingham, rehydrated
o2 packs Danstar BRY-97 American West Coast, rehydrated
•All carboys follow same fermentation schedule regardless of attenuation, flocculation, ph, and taste
o4 days @ 66°F (11/11/16-11/15/16) “primary”
o3 days @ 70°F (11/15/16-11/18/16) “diacetyl rest”
o3 days @ 31°F (11/18/16-11/21/16) “cold crash”
Typically 2 days cold crash, this batch fell over a weekend

•Notes on “primary”
oLondon ESB started very fast but died down after 24-48 hrs (visual, not by gravity)
oNottingham started very fast and maintained steady activity (visual, not by gravity)
oBRY-97 very slow start and maintained slow activity (visual, not by gravity)

•Gravity and ph findings after “primary” (11/15/16, start of diacetyl rest)
oLondon ESB
Gravity= 1.020
Ph= 3.94
Clean (no off flavors), noticeably under-attenuated, murky appearance
oNottingham
Gravity= 1.016
Ph= 3.77
Clean (no off flavors), dry, subtle fruitiness, very clear appearance
oBRY-97 American West Coast
Gravity= 1.022
Ph= 4.17
Very sweet, noticeably under-attenuated, clear appearance

Click to expand...

Used Bry-97 in an IPA and found its flavor profile detracting from the heavy hop schedule. Wouldn't be surprised if you had the same situation.


Best of luck in your trials!! Cheers

You have 30 gallons, but only 3 (5 gallon) carboys, are you using the other 15 gallons for something else or am I missing something?

@RevKev - I've run that yeast with a an aggressive west coast style IPA in the past and found the same thing. For this brewery our core IPA will be more east coast/english so it shouldn't have as much of a negative impact but in all honesty, I'm not that hopeful on it in relation to Notty.

@Sillybilly - No, you arent missing anything. We brewed a 1 bbl batch (actually 30 gal after trub loss) but only ran 15 gal (split into 3) to ferment. The rest got dumped. I mentioned we are in the testing phase... that is a polite way of saying we basically make beer to dump lol. I am fortunate to be in a well funded setting that allows me to complete tests like this several months before I am expected to have any "sellable" liquid.

I hope this doesn't come across as snotty but as a professional brewer I've had to dump more beer in a day at various facilities then most homebrewers could even dream of producing in their life on a 5 gallon system. It's equally poetic and gross haha

Update post-drest/pre-cold crash:

• Notes on “diacetyl rest”
o London ESB showed no visible activity after temp increase
o Nottingham showed slight decline in visible activity after temp increase
o BRY-97 maintained steady activity after temp increase

• Gravity and ph findings after “diacetyl rest” (11/18/16, start of cold crash)
o London ESB
 Gravity= 1.020
 Ph= 3.99
 Clean, full bodied, very hazy. Grav did not change after drest, ph increased.
o Nottingham
 Gravity= 1.014
 Ph= 3.77
 Clean, Dry, Slightly fruity, clear appearance
o BRY-97 American West Coast
 Gravity=1.018
 Ph=4.16
 Slightly under attenuated by taste, minor corn flavor (dms?) not present in other yeast samples

Dropped the temp to 31f for cold crash and am about to head out for the weekend. Ill post another update monday before I keg/carb

Thank you for reporting your findings in this great way.

Waiting for future posts!

I'm planning to move to the NSB area early next year. If you do more of these tests would you "dump" some of the wort into one of my fermenters???

kh54s10 said:

I'm planning to move to the NSB area early next year. If you do more of these tests would you "dump" some of the wort into one of my fermenters???

Click to expand...

I'm not opposed however it depends on when you get here. Tests like these will not be going on until late December at best. By January we will have our 3 core beers dialed in and pumping them out relentlessly so there will be very little "brew and dump" going on anymore.

Actually this was kinda the last "crazy" test we had to do. I don't really forsee much more brew and dump from here.

What I will do either way though is invite you to the brewery for a tour and a beer!

Final update on fermentation and cold crash:

• Gravity and ph findings after “cold crash” (11/21/16, pre-keg & carb)
o London ESB
 Gravity= 1.020
 Ph= 3.99
 Very Hazy
o Nottingham
 Gravity= 1.014
 Ph= 3.77
 Some haze but clearest of all three samples
o BRY-97 American West Coast
 Gravity= 1.018
 Ph= 4.16
 Very Hazy

• Total attenuation
o London ESB= 55.4% (3.4% abv)
o Nottingham= 68.6% (4.2% abv)
o BRY-97 American West Coast= 59.8% (3.7% abv)

Packaging and carbonation (11/21/16):
• Each beer packaged in standard 5 gallon pin lock Cornelius keg
• Each keg carbonated to roughly 2.7 volumes c02 via Blichmann quick-carb

I'll post another update with some flavor, aroma, and appearance notes within a few days. Maybe some pics also...

I have to say, as someone who has used a lot of wyeast 1968 in commercial settings and s04 at home I am pretty disappointed with the overall flocculation and attenuation with all three of these. I had high hopes for Notty but even that only hit 68.6% attenuation but with thin body. Any time I've used 1968 or 04 I've always had 70%+ attenuation, flocculation so hard it looked filtered after only 48 hr cold crash, clean final profile with little to no off flavors, but always retained nice fully body even with FGs falling as low as 1.010. I fully understand that london esb, nottingham, bry-97, wyeast 1968, and s04 are different yeast strains and will respond differently but is it unreasonable to expect at least one of the three tested yeast strains to hit 70%+ attenuation? And is it unreasonable to expect at least one of the three tested yeast strains to flocc even slightly clear after 3 days at 31f? (come on nottingham, I just called you out twice)

This is really interesting, thanks for posting. Can I ask why such a high mash temp? I commercially brew over here in Aus, and for our IPA we mash at 64c, which is 147f. Sounds like you're up more at around 68c, which will of course mean a lot higher FG's. 64c gets us to just under 1.010 FG.

I'm keen to find out what Danstar's London ESB dry yeast does for a Vermont/North East style IPA (given pitchable vols of liquid yeast is so hard and exxy to get down under) , so we're going to try it soon. Obviously we're going for clean tasting, murky looking and maybe a 1.014 FG by mashing around 65/66C

hoppyroo said:

This is really interesting, thanks for posting. Can I ask why such a high mash temp? I commercially brew over here in Aus, and for our IPA we mash at 64c, which is 147f. Sounds like you're up more at around 68c, which will of course mean a lot higher FG's. 64c gets us to just under 1.010 FG.

I'm keen to find out what Danstar's London ESB dry yeast does for a Vermont/North East style IPA (given pitchable vols of liquid yeast is so hard and exxy to get down under) , so we're going to try it soon. Obviously we're going for clean tasting, murky looking and maybe a 1.014 FG by mashing around 65/66C

Click to expand...

My preferred mash temp and schedule are really just force of habit. That is how I was "shown" (so to speak) when I first started a long awhile ago and have experimented with different temps and schedules but I always come back to the same mash SOP: 154-156f for 50 mins (recirc if using non steam jacketed MLT) then do a combined vorlauf and pseudo "mash out" by recirc for the last 10ins while slowly raising the temp to 162f~

It has never failed me in terms of FG with s04 or 1968, they both ALWAYS fall somewhere between 1.010-1.012 for me regardless of OG. To rule out the variable of mash temp giving such poor results with the London ESB yeast I actually also did a separate all extract test brew where ph and og were spot on... Still ended up with piss poor flocculation and attenuation under 50%.

I do appreciate you trying to find some possible variables as I firmly believe second eyes on a situation can always help! I also love to hear from brewers in other countries as we all have our own little "spin" on these things!

For the recipe you are considering running I will say this yeast may actually work out perfect! If you are looking for nice body, neutral esters, no reduction in hop bitterness, a ton of haze, and a high final gravity... This is your yeast

Quick update:

Today was carb and bottle day. All of the beers were still very hazy, even with an extra day to cold crash in the keg before carbing (yes, I did do another yeast dump pre-carb). Out of all of them Nottingham won by a landslide but I still wasn't too pleased with it's performance in relation to say 04 or 1968. It was very clean tasting and really let the ingredient (2 row and cascade) flavors show. The bry 97 has a touch of diacetyl and it's very high final ph gives me shelf stability concerns (especially here in florida where stores leave bottles on shelves for 6 months in 80f+ and can't figure out why no one buys anything). I also found the bry 97 to drastically mute hop flavors and emphasize the "grain" like flavor of the 2 row. It honestly tasted like wort that had an aweful mash extraction. I did bottle both of those and keep them to further test shelf stability and to see if they change in the bottle (keep in mind: I was testing these yeasts for possible core beers that will be canned and sit on shelves for sale).

The London esb... Didn't even bottle it. That yeast just refuses to drop out. I honestly think I'm done with it for good. The other two could have dropped more clear for my (visual) tastes but they were not off putting, the London esb yeast beer looked like a damn hefe and had very strong "yeasty" flavors. Again, like a hefe.

I'll post more updates over the next few weeks as we try the bottles.

Overall I am very happy I did this test and have gained a lot of important data but am highly underwhelmed by these yeast strains. Wyeast 1968 was my go-to for a long time but I've had so many inconsistencies with them over the last several months, even from one pack to the next from the same production batch, that it's just not worth it and I've never really been a fan of white labs.

I'm not at all ashamed to say that it's looking like 04 will be our brewery's core brand house strain.

More testing on that though...

Those attenuation numbers are low. For all of them. So i'd say it's process, not the yeast. Even though you didn't use the most, or even "high medium" attenuation strains, those numbers are low.

Preboil pH was 5.11. What was the mash pH? Same?