Are all starters created equally?

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 4, 2016

I've never before used a yeast starter and have read much about the positive advantages of using one. With that being said, are all starters the same? Is there a good "recipe" out there to use every time? I don't have a stir plate, so I would like to do one manually. My next brew is a zombie dust clone with Wyeast 1968. I'm interested in information on how to make a starter for this brew. Thanks for the input!

blizz81 · Jan 4, 2016

PLAY_DEAD said:
I've never before used a yeast starter and have read much about the positive advantages of using one. With that being said, are all starters the same? Is there a good "recipe" out there to use every time? I don't have a stir plate, so I would like to do one manually. My next brew is a zombie dust clone with Wyeast 1968. I'm interested in information on how to make a starter for this brew. Thanks for the input!

I think for as far as we want to take proper cell counts and propagation rates, etc, on the homebrewing scale, the simple answer is "yes".

I generally use Brewer's Friend's calculator ( http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ ).

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 4, 2016

I've seen this calculator before. How do you determine your O. G. before brew day? Do you use the estimated O. G. provided in MA y kits instructions? Also, how do you determine the pitch rate?

LLBeanJ · Jan 4, 2016

Yeah, just go with estimated. Even if you overshoot on your actual OG, the fact that you made a starter means the yeast are pretty much raring to go and should not have a problem dealing with a higher gravity wort. I'm guessing that since you're just getting into starters, you don't have a pure O2 system for oxygenating your wort. It's not a big deal, as we've all been there, but I'd think about getting one in the future as strong yeast (aka from a starter) and a healthy dose of pure O2 when you pitch will all but guarantee a healthy and complete fermentation.

blizz81 · Jan 4, 2016

PLAY_DEAD said:
I've seen this calculator before. How do you determine your O. G. before brew day? Do you use the estimated O. G. provided in MA y kits instructions? Also, how do you determine the pitch rate?

As mentioned, yeah, estimated / target OG. I usually change the pitch rate coefficient kind of on a whim on what I'm brewing - if it's a big beer, REALLY big beer, lager, big lager, etc.

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 4, 2016

Thanks for all of the replies! Care to elaborate on the pure 02 system?

BeardedBrews · Jan 4, 2016

http://www.northernbrewer.com/oxygenation-kit

Rather than shaking your fermenter to get a base level of oxygen back into your wort, you can use canned oxygen from the hardware store and one of these stones to bubble it directly in. It saves the shaking and lets you hit every batch with the exact same amount of O2 (by using a timer).

Back to the original question about a good starter or a bad one, I haven't seen any information suggesting the preparation of starter wort has a meaningful impact on the finished beer flavor. Sanitation is key, but after that I wouldn't get bogged down in the details.

This is a nice calculator to use:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

I like it because almost every field has a little "helpful hints" to get you on the right track.

If you are really just looking for a simple plan:
1. 200g of Light DME in ~2L of water
2. Boil 15 minutes
3. Cover and cool to 70F
4. Pitch the yeast
5. Shake/Swirl it as much as you can over the course of a couple days at room temperature.
6. Put it in the fridge over night to settle out
7. On brew day take it out of the fridge, pour off 75% of the liquid and let it come back up to room temperature.
8. Swirl it up and toss it in your fermenter

Or:
1. Buy 3x Vials
2. Toss all 3 in your fermenter

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

I use the "Shaken, not Stirred" method. Prepare 1L of starter of starter wort and put it in a 1Gal glass jug. Cap it and shake the container until you've nearly filled it with foam. Pitch your yeast to the starter. Pitch the starter to your wort at high krausen, starter wort and all.

Dead simple method and equipment. Very healthy yeast with reduced lag times.

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 4, 2016

RPIScotty what is your recipe and method for the starter wort - how much dme and how long to boil? I've read where you put foil over the top and shake it a few times a day for 3-5 days.

biestie · Jan 4, 2016

1 g dme for every 10 ml of final starter volume (100 g for a 1 L starter). Add a pinch of yeast nutrient if you've got it. Boil for 15 minutes, cool, and pitch yeast. Cover with tin foil. If you don't have a stir plate, shake it up as fairly often. As long as you don't have a ginormous starter with a small pitch, it'll be pretty much done in 24 hours. Too much beyond that and you're doing more harm than good.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

PLAY_DEAD said:
RPIScotty what is your recipe and method for the starter wort - how much dme and how long to boil? I've read where you put foil over the top and shake it a few times a day for 3-5 days.

1.) 0.22 lb of DME into 1L of water (~1.040 starter wort.

2.) Boil for 5-10 minutes.

3.) Cool starter wort and put in sanitized 1 gallon jug.

4.) Place screw cap on jug. Shake it like it owes you money. Shake the hell out of it until you've turned as much of the liquid into foam as you can.

5.) Pitch smack pack or vial to starter wort. Swirl briefly to mix yeast.

6.) Do nothing until starter hits high krausen (ball park 8-10 hours.) Pitch entire starter (yeast and starter wort) into your wort.

Things to remember:

A.) I didn't come up with this. Credit goes to an individual from the AHA Forum.

B.) Why shake? The foam allows a greater amount of oxygen to contact the yeast in the initial stages of the starter.

C.) How many cells will this produce? ~200x10^9 cells, which is the maximum cell density for 1L of starter medium.

D.) What if I need more cells? Make larger than 1L of starter wort but remember that a 4:1 vessel to starter medium ratio should be maintained (at a minimum) to accommodate the foaming.

E.) Pitch the starter wort and all? Yes, despite what you have heard, if you use extra light DME you'll never know the difference flavor wise. Accommodate for the extra volume in the fermentor when calculating your volumes.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

biestie said:
1 g dme for every 10 ml of final starter volume (100 g for a 1 L starter). Add a pinch of yeast nutrient if you've got it. Boil for 15 minutes, cool, and pitch yeast. Cover with tin foil. If you don't have a stir plate, shake it up as fairly often. As long as you don't have a ginormous starter with a small pitch, it'll be pretty much done in 24 hours. Too much beyond that and you're doing more harm than good.

+1 on the yeast nutrient. Forgot to mention that.

biestie · Jan 4, 2016

So the two posted above, mine and RPIScotty, are pretty similar. Same gravity. Looks like he pitches a little earlier (high krausen) than me. But we're both in agreement, hours, not days is how long to go. I wait a little longer, and the basis isn't technical.

I make starters before I go to bed, and brew two batches the next day. By the time I pitch it's usually been about 18 hours. IMO, the difference between the two is probably negligible.

Gavin C · Jan 4, 2016

I don't favor the approach outlined by some posters.

I don't want to add up to 3+ L of foul oxygenated starter beer to a 5.5 gallon batch. I get rid of 90% of it and just pitch the yeast.

Make a 1.040 SG starter-wort

Recipe : x grams of DME and fill the vessel to 10x mL the volume of water

Starter runs for 48 hours at full blast on a stir plate (no airlock, big flask)

Size of starter is determined on the desired pitch rate, OG of beer, yeast viability, etc.

When making a starter there is no need to boil for the long periods stated. 1 minute is adequate.

Read more about a simple method here.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

biestie said:
So the two posted above, mine and RPIScotty, are pretty similar. Same gravity. Looks like he pitches a little earlier (high krausen) than me. But we're both in agreement, hours, not days is how long to go. I wait a little longer, and the basis isn't technical.

I make starters before I go to bed, and brew two batches the next day. By the time I pitch it's usually been about 18 hours. IMO, the difference between the two is probably negligible.

Timing high krausen is tough. The advantage is that you pitch the yeast at their maximum health and growth. I agree with @biestie though.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

Gavin C said:
I don't favor the approach outlined by some posters.

I don't want to add up to 3+ L of foul oxygenated starter beer to a 5.5 gallon batch. I get rid of 90% of it and just pitch the yeast.

Make a 1.040 SG starter-wort

Recipe : x grams of DME and fill the vessel to 10x mL the volume of water

Starter runs for 48 hours at full blast on a stir plate (no airlock, big flask)

Size of starter is determined on the desired pitch rate, OG of beer, yeast viability, etc.

When making a starter there is no need to boil for the long periods stated. 1 minute is adequate.

Read more about a simple method here.

He doesn't have a stir plate.

Gavin C · Jan 4, 2016

RPIScotty said:
He doesn't have a stir plate.

That's easily fixed though. Gotta be one of the simplest cheapest pieces of kit home brewer can make. Pays for itself after a couple of batches in saved DME.

Stirred starters don't need to be as large as non-stirred.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

Gavin C said:
That's easily fixed though. Gotta be one of the simplest cheapest pieces of kit home brewer can make. Pays for itself after a couple of batches in saved DME.

Stirred starters don't need to be as large as non-stirred.

I respectfully disagree about stir plates. But that's the beauty of the hobby. Do what's right for you.

thaefathan · Jan 4, 2016

The yeast websites have tons of info. Whitelabs.com says pretty much what other people have said:

Typical Starter Volumes for 5 gallons:
To activate the yeast: 1 pint (with 1/4 cup DME)
To revitalize yeast past its Best Before Date: 2 pints (with 1/2 cup DME)
To brew a high gravity beer: 2 pints (with 1/2 cup DME)
To brew a lager beer, starting fermentation 50-55F: 4 pints (with 1 cup DME)

Without supplemental oxygen or a stir plate, you'll need 2 L of wort to get up to 200 billion cells. FYI

The last time I brewed I collected a couple quarts of wort in mason jars, and then canned them, so I can save a couple bucks on DME. Also if you don't want to add the taste of DME to your beer, you can decant it off, or you can make your starter out of the base malt you're using in your recipe.

Big Monk · Jan 4, 2016

2L of starter has a maximum cell density of 400 billion cells not 200 billion. A 1L starter will get you 200 billion. Approximately, of course.

Supplemental oxygen (I'm assuming you mean injected O2) or a stir plate aren't necessary to get there.

biestie · Jan 5, 2016

Gavin C said:
I don't favor the approach outlined by some posters.

I don't want to add up to 3+ L of foul oxygenated starter beer to a 5.5 gallon batch. I get rid of 90% of it and just pitch the yeast.

Make a 1.040 SG starter-wort

Recipe : x grams of DME and fill the vessel to 10x mL the volume of water

Starter runs for 48 hours at full blast on a stir plate (no airlock, big flask)

Size of starter is determined on the desired pitch rate, OG of beer, yeast viability, etc.

When making a starter there is no need to boil for the long periods stated. 1 minute is adequate.

Read more about a simple method here.

Who said anything about adding 3L of starter wort?

Gavin C · Jan 5, 2016

biestie said:
Who said anything about adding 3L of starter wort?

I did. It relates to the previous outlined methods of pitching at high krausen and the OP's question, "are all starters created equally?" Clearly they are not.

There is however, very good data available supporting certain characteristics of a starter that a favorable to maximizing biomass while keeping the investment of time energy and malt extract to a minimum.

Me inferring the methods previously outlined are not applicable to many beers where a larger yeast biomass is desirable is hardly odd. This discussion between proponents of a small starter with a high krausen pitch and folks like myself who do not subscribe to the practice is not new.

Up to 3+ liters is not uncommon for a 5 G batch of lager or very high gravity ale.

BTW why are you advocating boiling starters for 15 minutes?

Big Monk · Jan 5, 2016

There are those who feel like stir plates are wasted kit and detrimental to overall yeast health and there are those who feel it is an indispensable tool for making great starters.

I agree with Gavin that it is a "To each their own" dialogue. What works for me may not work for Gavin. But either way may work for someone asking advice about starter types.

2 things:

1.) Gavin, the "foul, oxygenated" wort you speak is likely a product of spinning the wort at full speed on a stir plate for 2 days. Again, to each their own.

2.) I agree about boiling for 15 minutes. I lean more towards 5.

I do small batches (1 gal) so "Shaken, not Stirred" works like gangbusters for me. In my opinion it is a good method up to 5 gal with low grav, high grav and lager beers. One shouldn't underestimate the power of healthy cells at peak "power" versus stirred and decanted cells in a quiescent state. The active cells will lag less and have an advantage over the decanted cells all day long.

I'd "under pitch" with this type of starter over a stir plate starter all day, everyday, especially for my batch size.

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 5, 2016

Looks like I have some deciding to do. Seeing how I've never made a starter before and have had numerous good beers come out ok, I'm more inclined to do a small "shaken" starter a la RPIScotty for my first one. Especially since I been 5 gallon batches. Thanks to everyone for all of their input.

Big Monk · Jan 5, 2016

PLAY_DEAD said:
Looks like I have some deciding to do. Seeing how I've never made a starter before and have had numerous good beers come out ok, I'm more inclined to do a small "shaken" starter a la RPIScotty for my first one. Especially since I been 5 gallon batches. Thanks to everyone for all of their input.

PM me if you want more info independent of the thread.

PLAY_DEAD · Jan 5, 2016

Thanks RPIScotty, I definitely will!

View attachment 1452050803820.jpg

Gavin C · Jan 5, 2016

RPIScotty said:
1.) Gavin, the "foul, oxygenated" wort you speak is likely a product of spinning the wort at full speed on a stir plate for 2 days. Again, to each their own.

2.) I agree about boiling for 15 minutes. I lean more towards 5.

I do small batches (1 gal)

1. Your 100% correct the Scotty, I want as much gas exchange as possible, O2 in Co2 out
2. Why boil for as long as 5 minutes? What's your rationale there?

It is IMO apples and oranges comparing 1 gallon batches with 5+ gallon batches when it comes to starters, particularly if you plan on brewing high gravity ales or lagers.

A 1 gallon batch will not typically require a starter at all. Doesn't matter what type of starter you use, it's going to be a gross over-pitch in all but the most extreme of 1 gallon batches.

There is more than enough yeast in a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack for a 1 gallon batch.

I can see no reason to make a starter for a 1 gallon batch unless

You planned on harvesting yeast from it for future brews
The yeast was old and sufficient viability was in doubt
You purposely want a huge over pitch for some reason or other.

Otherwise I don't see the reasoning I'm afraid.

But as you said, to each there own in this as in any hobby.

Big Monk · Jan 5, 2016

Gavin C said:
1. Your 100% correct the Scotty, I want as much gas exchange as possible, O2 in Co2 out

2. Why boil for as long as 5 minutes? What's your rationale there?

It is IMO apples and oranges comparing 1 gallon batches with 5+ gallon batches when it comes to starters, particularly if you plan on brewing high gravity ales or lagers.

A 1 gallon batch will not typically require a starter at all. Doesn't matter what type of starter you use, it's going to be a gross over-pitch in all but the most extreme of 1 gallon batches.

There is more than enough yeast in a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack pack for a 1 gallon batch.

I can see no reason to make a starter for a 1 gallon batch unless

You planned on harvesting yeast from it for future brews

The yeast was old and sufficient viability was in doubt

You purposely want a huge over pitch for some reason or other.

Otherwise I don't see the reasoning I'm afraid.

But as you said, to each there own in this as in any hobby.

I typically brew 1 gal but have used the method with equal aplomb on 5 gal batches as well. It's low tech and highly effective.

I agree with your statements on batch size and starters. I typically overbuild to get small portions of yeast to store for later batches. It stretches my supply out. I use small starters for these portions. I also try to repitch as much as possible.

The only liquid strains I use are 1762, 3787, 1214, 3522 and 1450. Basically starters are for my Trappist style beers and American Browns.

thaefathan · Jan 6, 2016

Hey, I would like to brew a PA or IPA, divide it into 5 (1) gallon jugs and compare 5 different yeasts. I've been trying to think of the best way to save the remainder of the yeast packets. I think saving the initial yeast would be easier than washing each of the 5 (1) gal batches, but what do you guys think?
Maybe make a 1 L starter, decant the starter wort, and grab a sanitized spoon to measure by weight the appropriate amount of yeast, then save the remainder in a jar?

mikescooling · Jan 6, 2016

IMHO, we are at the start of Brewers journey into the world of spinning yeast. If I were telling someone without a stir plate how to make a starter. I would say, et yourself some wort that's about 1.04 (use DME or mash a lil grain) then boil it, cool it and pitch your smack pack into it. Put some tin foil on top to keep the bugs out. Then every time you walk by it (can't do it too much) give it a few shakes or spins or both, then pitch it the next day.

Are all starters created equally?

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