Lets Do This - 20 Gallon Concord 3 Vessel HERMS

Figured i could start my build thread here, as i find it usually keeps me moving on my builds so i dont keep dilly dallying around and get it done!
You can see the spreadsheet i put together here, which contains all the parts i figured i would need and where they go as well as the best price at the time.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A-Vec6VM02F0qjdq2tq6084vTl5yYyhPXMcMNFPKR98/edit

Plan is 3 vessel EHERMS using all 20 Gallon(80Q) Concord Kettles and will be using StrangeBrew Elsinore as my panel, which is why its so simple(relative to a Kal panel).

Got a good deal on a 30"x60" Stainless table on Craigslist.


Most of the parts i got from Brewhardware.com and Bargainfittings.com, everything not shown(Jaybird False bottom, all couplers) i got from Norcalbrewing on their big fathers day sale which saved me a ton of cash.


Bottom of my panel, very cramped! Turns out small width 240V wall plates are expensive, i had to buy some and then dremel them bigger to fit around my locking plugs. The leftmost hole is where my main power will go in. The panel is a (almost) 10"x10" panel from Bud industries, when i was randomly checking late at night it was on sale for $31, so i threw caution to the wind and figured i'd find a way to cram everything i need in. In hindsight i should have just bought a bigger panel, as i could have used cheap generic plugs and wall covers. But it will be nice to keep it small i suppose as i only need to really access it to turn my elements on. Im going to do my best to cram everything in, i have a 12x12 plastic enclosure from Home Depot if i must, but i'd rather not re-drill all the holes and i like the look of the painted steel case.


Next big step is Sunday when i take my 3 pots over to my welder buddies house and we drill everything and he sanitary welds all my fittings.

After that i plan to build my panel and at the same time get a few electricians out to give me quotes on running a new 220V line in my garage.

I am doing it in my garage so i dont plan on any ventilation other than having the garage door open and a box fan blowing if necessary.

Nice!!!!!

I was wondering when we'd get to peek in on your build.

Heads up! I mentioned in my thread and posted a picture, that my first kettle had a pin-hole leak in it. I wish I'd tested it before I put a 2" hole in it, but then again I don't know that I would have bothered trying to send it back. It was easy to solder-patch it, but anybody with these Concord kettles might want to check for this as well. My other 2 are still in their boxes so I should check them tomorrow.

SilverZero said:

Heads up! I mentioned in my thread and posted a picture, that my first kettle had a pin-hole leak in it. I wish I'd tested it before I put a 2" hole in it, but then again I don't know that I would have bothered trying to send it back. It was easy to solder-patch it, but anybody with these Concorde kettles might want to check for this as well. My other 2 are still in their boxes so I should check them tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up. I just got one in yesterday. I guess I'll be checking for leaks first thing in the morning.

I'll check mine asap, I know one of my old pots didn't leak until I put it on my propane burner. Hope none of these do, but as you said I can solder or have my buddy weld anything closed

Got my pots welded today, the welds are clean I need to find my angle grinder to buff them a bit to get the welding discoloration off but not urgent. Waiting for my stainless 50 ft coil to show up Tuesday. Then I'll drop off my pot for him to drill and weld the last holes once we know how big the coil is and he's gonna drop it off here Saturday. When I wasn't watching he accidentally welded a full coupler instead of half for one of the sight glasses, no biggie it's still functional just sticks out a bit further. Can't complain he's doing this for free and it would cost me a fortune, and he does good work. Having a friend who does metal fab welding as a job and has an entire shop in his garage has it's perks :rockin:

Need to do a leak test as well before i take it to him in case there are pinholes he needs to seal as SilverZero found with his pots.

All these pics are before i ran a grinder and paddle wheel to the inside of the welds to clean up any bumps, its all baby butt smooth inside now.

Nice welds! Your system is looking great.

Looking good! My other 2 pots were fine so hopefully I got a rare defect.

Got my Stainlessbrewing HERMS coil today, god damn its a thing of beauty and pretty heavy @ about 10#. Its about 8.5" tall.

Question about elements, does it need to be fully submerged before use? Not that it matters as i measured my setup and my BK element is covered at somewhere between 3 and 4 gallons which is well below the smallest batches i'd be doing which is 5.5-6 Gallon.

Good job, I'm right with ya, doing my build also. I gotta make a build thread one of these days. I got my coil also today from Stainless Brewing, they did a fantastic job. I had my 2 inch ferrules welded Sunday for my ripple elements. Those electric elements really shouldn't be fired dry, so if you wait until they are covered with wort as the boil kettle fills, and then fire them you should be good to go.

Have fun with the rest of the build,

John

FuzzeWuzze said:

Got my Stainlessbrewing HERMS coil today, god damn its a thing of beauty and pretty heavy @ about 10#. Its about 8.5" tall.

Question about elements, does it need to be fully submerged before use? Not that it matters as i measured my setup and my BK element is covered at somewhere between 3 and 4 gallons which is well below the smallest batches i'd be doing which is 5.5-6 Gallon.

Click to expand...

Yes! never dry fire an element. I added a float switch to my HLT to be sure it would stop firing before the water level got below the element. Thinking about adding one to the BK too. I've only dry fire it once (while cleaning it after a batch) and was fortunate to catch it quickly, but cleaning the scorched crud off it was a real PITA!

RocketBrewer said:

Yes! never dry fire an element. I added a float switch to my HLT to be sure it would stop firing before the water level got below the element. Thinking about adding one to the BK too. I've only dry fire it once (while cleaning it after a batch) and was fortunate to catch it quickly, but cleaning the scorched crud off it was a real PITA!

Click to expand...

I did the same in my HLT (float switch) after dry firing while sparging... unless the element is a true ulwd element they can easily overheat and burn out from dry firing.

Mine is a ULWD element, and while it didn't damage the element (I was able to shut it off very fast), it certainly scorched black all the stuff still on the element. It was no fun to clean!

RocketBrewer said:

Mine is a ULWD element, and while it didn't damage the element (I was able to shut it off very fast), it certainly scorched black all the stuff still on the element. It was no fun to clean!

Click to expand...

But you finally got to clean your element fully It probably hasnt been that clean since it left the factory!

Got my final couplers welded on, 1 for whirlpool and the other two for my herms coil..a quick fitting at his place showed it sits about 1/2" above the element and doesnt seem to flex at all..its pretty damn rigid. I also got all my close nipples from BrewHardware today i forgot to order(somehow?) the first go around.

Having not brewed in a while i forgot how much the LHBS i goto gouges on some things, grains and what not are fairly priced...although i could probably find cheaper if i cared they are a 10 minute drive from work so easy to pick up things at lunch or on my way home. But damn, when i went in last week and saw they wanted $7 for ONE close nipple I laughed a bit outloud..i should have really mentioned something to them about it being absurd. I mean im willing to pay 2x or so over online in a pinch because they have to store it and order it and what not..but over 3x the cost? I could have spent $75 in just close nipples, which would have been ridiculous.

Sounds like it's coming along. Wow 7 bucks for a close nipple is a little crazy! Does that come with lube or what? Bobby has very reasonable prices and he will exchange stuff or credit your account with no hassels and I enjoy doing business with him. Are you clamping down your herms coil with a stainless steel or delrin (nylon) sleeve in your compression fitting? Just curious as some people use the nylon one to be able to remove it for more thorough cleaning, and some don't and just clean in place.......

John

jcav said:

Sounds like it's coming along. Wow 7 bucks for a close nipple is a little crazy! Does that come with lube or what? Bobby has very reasonable prices and he will exchange stuff or credit your account with no hassels and I enjoy doing business with him. Are you clamping down your herms coil with a stainless steel or delrin (nylon) sleeve in your compression fitting? Just curious as some people use the nylon one to be able to remove it for more thorough cleaning, and some don't and just clean in place.......

John

Click to expand...

I need to look but im pretty sure the ones i got from BrewersHardware are stainless sleeve fittings, i dont really care about being able to remove it..we dont have hard water so there should be almost zero mineral build up or anything in the HLT. Other than the minerals im adding myself i suppose

Ok sounds good. Thanks!

John

Got the pots mostly plumbed up, turns out im one camlock short so ill have to goto the LHBS tommorrow. Hopefully tomorrow ill also do fill test's and finish calibrating my sight glasses and putting the vinyl stickers on them, then i need to drill the tiny holes for the upper hooks to hold the sight glasses in place. You can see the DS18B20 temp probes dangling out of the compression fitting...i had to cut the shrink wrap they put on them way back because it wouldnt fit through the compression otherwise. Also need to track down some isopropyl alcohol or something to get off the sharpie i used on my pots for the welder Im a little concerned about the gaps around the false bottom, but the pictures make them look worse than it is..but it also sits flat on the bottom and will filter through the side if any grain does sneak by the top so im not that worried. Waiting to take the plastic off the HERMS coil until im ready to start fill testing to keep from scratching it while moving crap around.

Whole Setup


Close Up Of Temp Probe


BK Outside & Inside



MLT Outside & Inside



HLT Outside & Inside



Last steps before Brew Day
- Wire up Elements
- Get 240V Socket installed to left of my table(So far had 2 electricians come out for a bid, neither has actually sent me a bid, contacting a 3rd tommorrow).
- Wire up my control panel
- Last thing i'll do is probably make my hoses once i have a good idea for how they will be used and can size them accordingly, i have a big 50' spool of it but hate to waste since its so expensive!

Subbed. Looking great

Looks great, I'm in the middle of a similar build. Two questions:
Where did you get the sight glasses your using?
Why did you choose to put the MLT temp probe on the inlet instead of the outlet.

gwaugh said:

Looks great, I'm in the middle of a similar build. Two questions:
Where did you get the sight glasses your using?
Why did you choose to put the MLT temp probe on the inlet instead of the outlet.

Click to expand...

The sight glasses were from Bargain Fittings
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=117

I decided to put the temp probe there because after a bunch of reading a lot of people were saying they get more accurate results measuring the output of the HERMS coil than the output of the MLT...that is yet to be seen but how i have it rigged for now. I realize that Kal does his out of the MLT output, so ill try both and see what i like more.

*Edit* But the more i read now maybe ill do it as Kal does...i mean his setup is the defacto setup.

FuzzeWuzze said:

The sight glasses were from Bargain Fittings
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=117

I decided to put the temp probe there because after a bunch of reading a lot of people were saying they get more accurate results measuring the output of the HERMS coil than the output of the MLT...that is yet to be seen but how i have it rigged for now. I realize that Kal does his out of the MLT output, so ill try both and see what i like more.

*Edit* But the more i read now maybe ill do it as Kal does...i mean his setup is the defacto setup.

Click to expand...

It is, but I'd argue that's partly because he was the one who pioneered, polished, and published the whole system. He did his experiments and he's the de facto standard for a reason, but there's no harm in trying other ideas. Either way, you're going to be tweaking your system for your environment. Maybe you measure at the output and set it 4 degrees higher than mash temps instead of at the input and set it 2 degrees higher, but it's going to be pretty much the same either way.

SilverZero said:

It is, but I'd argue that's partly because he was the one who pioneered, polished, and published the whole system. He did his experiments and he's the de facto standard for a reason, but there's no harm in trying other ideas. Either way, you're going to be tweaking your system for your environment. Maybe you measure at the output and set it 4 degrees higher than mash temps instead of at the input and set it 2 degrees higher, but it's going to be pretty much the same either way.

Click to expand...

True enough, did a leak test and everything but my HERMS coil is good now, after the move i cant find all my tools..need to go get a new wrench set at Harbor freight tommorrow since i dont have one that fits the compression fitting for the HERMS coil its spraying water all over inside the kettle.

I put my "MLT" temp probe on the coil outlet. It consistently measures 2 or 3 degrees cooler than my HLT, though it's been a while since I calibrated the probes.

I used to have it on the MLT output like Kal, but found it much harder to maintain consistent temps since there was quite a bit of lag between changing HLT temp and seeing that change on the MLT output. Which meant a lot of back and forth on the PID and longer to get stable mash temps.

Now that it's on the coil output it very closely tracks the HLT and as long as I hit mash temps on dough in, everything is consistent and stable.

One thing I haven't done (that I probably should have originally) is put spacers in the HLT coil to ensure even flow around and inside it. Is anyone else doing that and if so what do you use?

I used to use an external heat exchanger. I measured the average difference between my mash temp and the coil output temp and adjusted the probes accordingly in the PID. After that my mash temp was rock solid and bang on every time. You can place your probes pretty much anywhere and compensate for them this way.

Bellybuster said:

I used to use an external heat exchanger. I measured the average difference between my mash temp and the coil output temp and adjusted the probes accordingly in the PID. After that my mash temp was rock solid and bang on every time. You can place your probes pretty much anywhere and compensate for them this way.

Click to expand...

I tried that too but found it didn't work as well in my system. One problem is that I have 2G dead space in the MLT which means a lot longer to change mash temp if I don't hit it right at dough in. On my system the rate of change between coil output and MLT output isn't linear, so to raise mash temp faster I used to set the HLT 5 - 8 degrees higher (eg 155 if I mashed in at 146 and really wanted to get to 150 quickly). That's a bad idea, since all the wort in your coil is now way above your target mash temp. This seemed to cause attenuation issues and much higher FGs than I expected in some beers.

So all I mean here is, coil temp can have an effect too, independent of MLT temp, if there is lag between the two and you overcompensate the HLT temp. If your system is smaller you may not have a problem as there's less then inertia. But it's probably still useful to at least measure the temp at various points in the system to know how it'll react, and then decide where to finally put the probes.

ya, never really had the ability to raise temps fast so wasn't an issue for me. My adjustment was never more than a degree or two

I run a 15 gallon setup very similar. I'm using a stainless convoluted CFC as my heat exchanger. While it works great, it was supposed to be temporary until funds for an in kettle coil were saved up. 10 months later I'm looking to go all triclamp with herms coil in kettle

Using the CFC I have successfully been able to step mash but the lag time isn't great. Wondering now if I've been to aggressive with hlt temps to speed up mash temp rises...haven't had any attenuation issues but I'm sure I'm probably bludgeoning the enzymes I need