Seeking Helpful Tips on Bottle Conditioning

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typebrad

typebrad

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I'm a cold-crasher and bottle conditioner/carbonator.

I cold crash because I dry hop anywhere from 2-4 ounces for a super pungent nose. Mostly pine-y and citrus-y IPAs.

Without the crash, I'm way too cloudy for my liking, but I'm not getting the carbonation or head retention I would prefer.

I often ferment 3-4 weeks between 64° and 68° depending on my yeast. The beers get a nice cleanup and when finished, have no off flavors and a wonderful nose.

I condition these hoppy beers between 70° and 76° for up to 4 and 5 weeks, depending on what the weather is doing to my closet at the time.

I would say I average between 4 and 5 oz. of priming sugar in each 5 gallon batch.

Is my yeast just dead? Crash just too much for it after a long fermentation?

There -must- be yeast in suspension still, and I'm giving it PLENTY of time to get back to work as long as I'm conditioning for.

I realize force carbing would give me the best results, but I just can't get into kegging right now.

I find myself extremely envious of the light, tall heads with amazing retention and rising, champagne-like bubbles in my favorite brews.

Tips? Any "pro" bottle conditioners on here have pointers?

Every thread I've read on this forum seems to touch on things I'm already doing. I'm stumped.

Thanks in advance,
Brad
 
mkyl428 said:
If you want more carbonation use more priming sugar at bottling time here is a calculator http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

Head retention has to do with your recipe also possibly soap film on your glassware
Click to expand...


Fair point about soap residue on glass and retention, but my brews are lacking carbonation while pouring. Retention aside, there just isn't a pleasurable amount of gas. They're often more on the flat side than not.

The Northern Brewer calculator is the one I have always used since I started brewing.
 
carafoam, and if you are putting 5oz of table sugar in a 5 gallon batch there is no way they would be under carbed unless your bottles leak.
 
If you're not getting the level of carbonation appropriate for the amount of priming sugar you add, then it could be a yeast problem. You are definitely conditioning at high enough temps for long enough times. You might try adding a little yeast at the same time you add the priming sugar. If you suspect the yeast in the fermenter you just used has become too weak to work, then you should use fresher/healthier yeast.

Brew on :mug:
 
poptarts said:
carafoam, and if you are putting 5oz of table sugar in a 5 gallon batch there is no way they would be under carbed unless your bottles leak.
Click to expand...

How is it you calculate the amount of Carafoam for a recipe? Let's say I'm doing a basic SMaSH. Twelve pounds of Pale 2-row. How much Carafoam would I include in the recipe?

And I'm using corn sugar, not cane. Do people really use cane sugar for bottling??
 
doug293cz said:
If you're not getting the level of carbonation appropriate for the amount of priming sugar you add, then it could be a yeast problem. You are definitely conditioning at high enough temps for long enough times. You might try adding a little yeast at the same time you add the priming sugar. If you suspect the yeast in the fermenter you just used has become too weak to work, then you should use fresher/healthier yeast.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


That sounds so scary. And my wife would love some bombs going off in her coat closet. LOL
 
mkyl428 said:
You could try upping the amount of sugar used.

edit- re-read OP
Click to expand...

I'm bottling two batches that are currently dry hopping in a couple of weeks. I may just try increasing a half an ounce or an ounce and see if that helps.
 
Just be careful, use the calculator to try and gauge how many vols of co2 you will end up with... you don't want bottle bombs!
 
Also, I read in another thread, a guy bases the amount of priming sugar he uses on the highest temp his beer hit during FERMENTATION. For example, if you never got above 68 or 70 degrees, you use that temp when calculating the amount of sugar you would use.

I know you're supposed to calculate based on the temp your bottles will be stored at, but I thought "hey, that would make me add a little extra sugar if I used this method," and who knows, it might just work?
 
mkyl428 said:
Just be careful, use the calculator to try and gauge how many vols of co2 you will end up with you don't want bottle bombs!
Click to expand...

I aim for 2.6, 99% of the time. Almost every beer I fall in love with, the brewer tells me that's the number he shoots for.
 
typebrad said:
Also, I read in another thread, a guy bases the amount of priming sugar he uses on the highest temp his beer hit during FERMENTATION. For example, if you never got above 68 or 70 degrees, you use that temp when calculating the amount of sugar you would use.
Click to expand...


This is what I do also ^^^^ sorry maybe I should have thought of that earlier. I would definitely say try that & see if it helps :mug:
 
typebrad said:
How is it you calculate the amount of Carafoam for a recipe? Let's say I'm doing a basic SMaSH. Twelve pounds of Pale 2-row. How much Carafoam would I include in the recipe?

And I'm using corn sugar, not cane. Do people really use cane sugar for bottling??
Click to expand...

.5lbs for 5 gallon batch is a good place to start.
99% of people that bottle use cane sugar, and the other 1% is experimenting or getting duped by the man at the homebrew shop.

for the priming calculator use the highest temp the beer reached ever.
 
That calculator is a bit scary to me. I recently brewed a northern brewer bourbon barrel porter. The directions I got with the kit said to add 5 oz dextrose when bottling, but the calculator said to add 2.91 oz. not sure what to make of this...


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
Not sure if there are any stinky IPA lovers reading this thread, but I have to take a moment to brag on this. Was just in Portland for a week and visited Breakside to have a few of the recently crowned "Best American IPA" at the GABF.

It is all it's cracked up to be. I am inspired all over again as a home brewer. This beer is [expletive] amazing! And so I don't derail this thread, the gas is also perfection!

breaksideIPA.jpg
 
poptarts said:
.5lbs for 5 gallon batch is a good place to start.
99% of people that bottle use cane sugar, and the other 1% is experimenting or getting duped by the man at the homebrew shop.

for the priming calculator use the highest temp the beer reached ever.
Click to expand...


No harm in giving the Carafoam a try. Thanks for the tip.

And I may give the table sugar a go to see if there is any difference. At my local brew shop, the corn sugar is just pennies really and probably no more than cane sugar would be at the grocery, so no harm there. But worth a shot to see if I get different results.
 
typebrad said:
No harm in giving the Carafoam a try. Thanks for the tip.

And I may give the table sugar a go to see if there is any difference. At my local brew shop, the corn sugar is just pennies really and probably no more than cane sugar would be at the grocery, so no harm there. But worth a shot to see if I get different results.
Click to expand...

yea carafoam helps head retention a ton, if you happy with corn sugar still use it if you like, there is no noticeable difference, i just have a 10lb bag of cane at my house.
 
typebrad said:
That sounds so scary. And my wife would love some bombs going off in her coat closet. LOL
Click to expand...

Bottle bombs are not caused by the amount of yeast in the bottles. They are caused by too much fermentable sugar in the bottles, or by infections. The yeast can't make CO2 once they are out of fermentable sugar. Excess fermentable sugar can be the result of too much priming sugar, and/or residual fermentable sugar (because the original fermentation did not complete.) This is why it's critical to make sure fermentation is complete before you bottle.

You are already adding sufficient priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch. More sugar will not fix a failure to carb problem.

The defense against unpleasant surprises in the closet it to store the bottles in covered plastic tubs. Will keep the closet clean, and simplify cleanup, if you do get bottle bombs.

Brew on :mug:
 
drat12 said:
That calculator is a bit scary to me. I recently brewed a northern brewer bourbon barrel porter. The directions I got with the kit said to add 5 oz dextrose when bottling, but the calculator said to add 2.91 oz. not sure what to make of this...


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
Click to expand...

Porters traditionally have a lot lower carbonation level than, say, an APA. 5 oz is a fairly highly carbed beer. I think NB supplies 5 oz. of corn sugar with all their kits.
 
typebrad said:
I know you're supposed to calculate based on the temp your bottles will be stored at,
Click to expand...

NO, you are not.

Those calculators suck and I've said it over and over. Most people who drink bottled commercial beer and homebrew expect a c02 volume of about 2.4-2.6 volumes.

It's not "to style", but bottled beers aren't as a rule.

Using .75-1 ounce of priming sugar per finished gallon, always, no matter the calculator will never create a problem. The problems come when people add too little (don't put in the highest fermentation temperature) or too much (prime "to style" for a weizen).

The reason is that those calculators guestimate the probable amount of residual c02, because colder fermentations can "hold" onto co2 better. however, even lager makers will often do a diacetyl rest so plenty of degassing happens then.

Those calculators create far more problems and undercarbed (or overcarbed) beer than imaginable. Really, 4-5 ounces corn sugar per 5 gallon batch is all that is needed. There is no reason to overthink this. It's not rocket science- it's just beer.
 
Yooper said:
Those calculators create far more problems and undercarbed (or overcarbed) beer than imaginable. Really, 4-5 ounces corn sugar per 5 gallon batch is all that is needed. There is no reason to overthink this. It's not rocket science- it's just beer.
Click to expand...


OK, but I feel I'm doing everything right, using 4-5 oz. priming sugar and still little carb. So ... ? I've got a closet that stays locked at 74° and I'm letting my bottles condition for a month now. Flavor is great, gas sucks. Nothing more of a bummer than waiting 2+ months for a beer that could be so[/] much better.
 
dkevinb said:
Porters traditionally have a lot lower carbonation level than, say, an APA. 5 oz is a fairly highly carbed beer. I think NB supplies 5 oz. of corn sugar with all their kits.
Click to expand...


Which adds concern in my opinion. Now I'm worried about bottle bombs!


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
Yooper said:
NO, you are not.

Those calculators suck and I've said it over and over. Most people who drink bottled commercial beer and homebrew expect a c02 volume of about 2.4-2.6 volumes.

It's not "to style", but bottled beers aren't as a rule.

Using .75-1 ounce of priming sugar per finished gallon, always, no matter the calculator will never create a problem. The problems come when people add too little (don't put in the highest fermentation temperature) or too much (prime "to style" for a weizen).

The reason is that those calculators guestimate the probable amount of residual c02, because colder fermentations can "hold" onto co2 better. however, even lager makers will often do a diacetyl rest so plenty of degassing happens then.

Those calculators create far more problems and undercarbed (or overcarbed) beer than imaginable. Really, 4-5 ounces corn sugar per 5 gallon batch is all that is needed. There is no reason to overthink this. It's not rocket science- it's just beer.
Click to expand...


Didn't see Yooper comment. If Yooper says it, I feel a whole lot better. Doing about 30 batches this way has only resulted in one bottle bomb and I think that was due to a weak bottle on an old Scottish ale.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
typebrad said:
OK, but I feel I'm doing everything right, using 4-5 oz. priming sugar and still little carb. So ... ? I've got a closet that stays locked at 74° and I'm letting my bottles condition for a month now. Flavor is great, gas sucks. Nothing more of a bummer than waiting 2+ months for a beer that could be so[/] much better.
Click to expand...


I used to beat my head into the wall trying to get my bottled conditioned beers oh so perfect. Here are a few things that helped me.

Cane sugar or corn sugar, it doesn't matter because they are pretty much the same thing, just DON'T ever use DME. You can also treat cane sugar and corn sugar as equals when you weigh them.

I've stored beer in primary for close to a year before, and never added yeast at bottling time. It may take a little longer, but it WILL carbonate.

It is important that you gauge the volume of beer your bottling quite accurately though, if your actually bottling 5.5 gallons of beer and you use 4 oz of priming sugar, then you've only got enough priming sugar to sufficiently carbonate about 4 gallons at 2.6 volumes of C02!!! I try to be accurate to the 1/10th of a gallon when I enter the number into the carbonation calculator that I use, (beersmith). So I look at the lines on the bottling bucket and come up with an educated guess such as 4.8 or "hmmm just a hair under 4.5 gonna call it 4.4". Probably only need to be accurate to the 1/4 gallon but I'm kind of anal about it because of the bazillion batches that were about 3/4 carbed as much as I wanted them to be.

I also STIR my priming solution pretty well into the bottling bucket. You probably don't need to but why take chances?

As mentioned above, the temperature in the calculator is supposed to be the highest temperature your beer has reached. I pretty much just leave mine at 72F because all my beers come to room temp at some point in their life on the way to kegging/bottling.

Be sure and store them in a warm place, room temp or maybe even somewhere close to 80F. Once they are carbed, try to keep them as cool as possible. Temperature is a MAJOR factor in how long a beer will, or won't last.

My beers usually take about 1-2 weeks to carb up all the way, although there's always that stubborn one that takes 1-2 months, those are usually the ones that aged for a long time in primary.

I bought a kegging system for convenience, but I still love bottling and bottle conditioning. I often bottle 1-2 gallons of a batch just because I love having them around to send to competition or to give to friends. Many beginners throw some money at the bottle conditioning problem, and buy a kegging system because they were unable to master the art of bottle conditioning. Stick with it and go over your process some more; you'll be toasting to yourself with a tall glass of your own perfectly bottle conditioned beer soon enough!

This is a Bud Lite clone that I bottled a little less than 2 weeks ago, cheers!



Let us know how your next batch goes!
 
If you do a super long ferment or long cold crash and are worried about yeast viability, add a little bit at bottling time. Adding more sugar isn't going to do anything other than cause bottle bombs when the yeast you've got eventually finish fermenting it.

I've added rehydrated champagne yeast or us-05 a couple times when I've wanted my beers to prime quicker.
 
OP, from what you've said, I would be tempted to look at a mechanical issue next. Is it possible the crown caps or the capper you're using are not getting a tight seal? Even cold conditioning leaves enough yeast that after 5 weeks at 70-75 you'll get carbonation.
 
Black Island Brewer said:
OP, from what you've said, I would be tempted to look at a mechanical issue next. Is it possible the crown caps or the capper you're using are not getting a tight seal? Even cold conditioning leaves enough yeast that after 5 weeks at 70-75 you'll get carbonation.
Click to expand...

Good suggestion on something to check. If the caps leak, carb pressure will be insufficient.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Good suggestion on something to check. If the caps leak, carb pressure will be insufficient.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Most likely not the problem, but can be easily checked by dunking the capped bottles in water for 15-30 seconds, any bubbles at all signifies a problem with the seal.
 
estricklin said:
Most likely not the problem, but can be easily checked by dunking the capped bottles in water for 15-30 seconds, any bubbles at all signifies a problem with the seal.
Click to expand...

Hot water would be best as it would cause the pressure in the bottle to rise, insuring bubbles if there were a leak.

Might as well check this. It can't hurt, and there are no other obvious reasons for these bottles not to have carbed.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Hot water would be best as it would cause the pressure in the bottle to rise, insuring bubbles if there were a leak.

Might as well check this. It can't hurt, and there are no other obvious reasons for these bottles not to have carbed.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...
Hot water, and an empty bottle. I have a bench capper that seemed to not crimp properly on thicker crowns, so I submerged an empty 22 into a sink of hot water. Was sealing fine. Bottles have carbed fine as well.
 

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