Latest trend - NO Secondary?

Laurel said:

I'm a quasi noob as well, but I use secondary to clear up my primary fermenter so I can make another brew. I don't have room for more fermentation vessels, so this lets me have 2 beers going at once.

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If you skipped the secondary, wouldn't you ALSO have two fermentation vessels so that you could have two beers going at once (i.e. two primaries)?

Anything that is going to a competition or a public serving will still get a secondary.

I use gelatin in all my bright beers for clarifying and if I can rid an additional 1/2" of sediment in my secondary rather than my keg, I will.

This is a secondary 24 hours after racking with gelatin. Notice that you can see the reflection of the bucket wall coming through the beer.


Up close (camera lens pushed against the carboy) you can almost read the print on the bucket behind the carboy.


No doubt in my experience, that a secondary facilitates a clearer beer in the keg.

Yeah I have room for one more fermenter in my tub, my smaller tub is harder for me to maintain a constant temp so I figure a secondary in there at a bit warmer temps would be fine.

I also use a secondary, mainly for reasons of aging. I never really know how long it's going to be before I feel like I need to bottle my next brew, and have been known to do a 6-8 week secondary after a 1-2 week primary. Plus it makes me feel like I have more room, as I am currently running two 5G secondaries and (2) 6.5G primaries. Although I am about to brew my first ten gallon batch, and am thinking about going with a large primary then splitting the secondary into two and oaking half of it....

TerapinChef said:

I also use a secondary, mainly for reasons of aging. I never really know how long it's going to be before I feel like I need to bottle my next brew, and have been known to do a 6-8 week secondary after a 1-2 week primary. Plus it makes me feel like I have more room, as I am currently running two 5G secondaries and (2) 6.5G primaries. Although I am about to brew my first ten gallon batch, and am thinking about going with a large primary then splitting the secondary into two and oaking half of it....

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You a busy man....

I have only ever used a secondary for Lagering things like Octoberfest, or for bulk aging high gravity Ales. Other than that, it has always pretty much been app. 10 days primary and then bottle/keg. Aging is a different story.

FlyGuy said:

If you skipped the secondary, wouldn't you ALSO have two fermentation vessels so that you could have two beers going at once (i.e. two primaries)?

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Not really. I have a 5 gallon secondary carboy, there would be no room for krausen, and I'd lose lots of beer and have a big mess on my hands.

Laurel said:

Not really. I have a 5 gallon secondary carboy, there would be no room for krausen, and I'd lose lots of beer and have a big mess on my hands.

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Ah, true enough. Although a smaller batch and/or some foam control drops could take care of that problem!

FlyGuy said:

Ah, true enough. Although a smaller batch and/or some foam control drops could take care of that problem!

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I don't mind transferring to secondary and it keeps me from rushing myself and possibly creating bottle bombs. Besides, I can't drink more than 2 cases of beer every 2 weeks without help.

zoebisch01 said:

I have only ever used a secondary for Lagering things like Octoberfest, or for bulk aging high gravity Ales. Other than that, it has always pretty much been app. 10 days primary and then bottle/keg. Aging is a different story.

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So, I'm a little unclear about this. The "guide book" I've been using states you should run primary for roughly two weeks and then secondary (if you wish) for an additional two weeks. As a noob I got impatient and bottled my last brew (Newcastle clone) after about 10 days in the primary. Within three days of bottling I popped one open and it tasted fine. Since then company has commented on the fine flavor of the beer as well.

More to the point...what's the minimum time I should leave the brew in the primary before bottling it? I see some of you guys leave it in the primary for up to 4 weeks and the guy above is doing more of what I've been doing. What, exactly, do I gain or lose with the extra 2.5 weeks of fermentation?

The absolute minimum time needed in the primary is however long it takes to stop fermenting. The best way to establish this is to take consecutive hydrometer readings over 2-3 days (I'm starting to think of taking a reading one day, skipping the second, and taking a reading on the 3rd. I'll notice a change easier that way).

What do you gain from letting beer age?

Have you ever made chili or spaghetti? Do you notice that the next day it tastes even better than the night before? Some foods and drinks with complex flavors need time to combine, mellow out, age, etc etc. You can bulk-age easily enough because you're sitting on the yeast cake used in fermentation, and with the higher concentration of yeast in your beer, it can clean up the off flavors quicker and easier.

Basically, if you make a batch of good beer, letting it age in the primary will help ensure that it consistently remains a good beer. If temperature spikes during one batch, you could get off flavors if you went straight to bottle. If you let it age in the primary, those flavors very well might end up cleaning out of the beer.

TheFlatline said:

The absolute minimum time needed in the primary is however long it takes to stop fermenting. The best way to establish this is to take consecutive hydrometer readings over 2-3 days (I'm starting to think of taking a reading one day, skipping the second, and taking a reading on the 3rd. I'll notice a change easier that way).

What do you gain from letting beer age?

Have you ever made chili or spaghetti? Do you notice that the next day it tastes even better than the night before? Some foods and drinks with complex flavors need time to combine, mellow out, age, etc etc. You can bulk-age easily enough because you're sitting on the yeast cake used in fermentation, and with the higher concentration of yeast in your beer, it can clean up the off flavors quicker and easier.

Basically, if you make a batch of good beer, letting it age in the primary will help ensure that it consistently remains a good beer. If temperature spikes during one batch, you could get off flavors if you went straight to bottle. If you let it age in the primary, those flavors very well might end up cleaning out of the beer.

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Thank you for the very simple and concise answer. I do not have a hydrometer yet but for the time being I can wait another week or so. I still have 30+ bottles from the previous batches to hold me over.

I feel lucky - I used to make wine - if you want to know how you handle being patient try THAT - Beer almost seems like instant gratification!

I feel beer is like wine on steroids when it comes to aging. However - I do not know how long the curve is when it is at it's peak.

All right...here's an experiment for you.
I just brewed my second batch of Orfy's Hobgoblin Clone.
Due to the overwhelming popularity of the first batch, I decided to make this brewday my inaugural 10 gallon batch. We'll leave aside the details of that experience in lieu of this one...
I ended up with just over 11 gallons of beautiful brown wort. Being as that I don't have a glycol jacketed pressure fermenter, or anything close, I split the batch into two 6.5G carboys. Here's what I'm proposing. I'm going to leave one carboy in primary for a full 28 days. I'll split the other into a secondary after about 14. Both will be bottled using the same technique and then a tasting will ensue. I'll report back the results and see if we can tell the difference.

I have a question that popped up while reading this:

If I am maintaining the fermentation temp in my primary, is there a time when I can stop worrying about the temp? If I leave it int he primary for 3+weeks, do I need to keep it at the same temp the entire time? Same for secondary...does it need temp maintained or can I set it in the closet and forget it?

I'm not brewing any lagers. My apartment here in FL never gets below 74F in the summer, so I've been keeping my fermentation buckets in coolers/chillers depending on the yeast I'm using.

looks like someone asked the same question an hour before me. whoops.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=75468

OK, I will play advocatus diaboli now:

This year I made some experiments with fermentation that go exactly the other way.
I used the procedure descibed here:
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693&highlight=tertiary
It goes like that: Primary as short as possible, brief secondary, and long and cold tertiary for a few weeks.

Autolysis? No, this is not the biggest thread. I'm worried about trub from cold break - it contains some proteins, the food for microbes.
About yeast: when you rack to secondary, you don't get rid of all the yeast, only the dead and week that have already flocculated to the bottom. There is still plenty of healthy yeast in suspension, that will do the cleaning job.

The yield of the experiment was like that: a few times I got under-attenuated beer. But 4 of the beers won prizes.

duskb said:

So, I'm a little unclear about this. The "guide book" I've been using states you should run primary for roughly two weeks and then secondary (if you wish) for an additional two weeks. As a noob I got impatient and bottled my last brew (Newcastle clone) after about 10 days in the primary. Within three days of bottling I popped one open and it tasted fine. Since then company has commented on the fine flavor of the beer as well.

More to the point...what's the minimum time I should leave the brew in the primary before bottling it? I see some of you guys leave it in the primary for up to 4 weeks and the guy above is doing more of what I've been doing. What, exactly, do I gain or lose with the extra 2.5 weeks of fermentation?

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Sorry I missed responding to this, but TheFlatLine gives a good answer. I want to restate my stance on this, every recipe will have it's own time frame of when it is ready and another time frame when it peaks. Secondary is really a place where the yeast can continue dropping out of suspension. If you want less sediment in your bottle then a secondary is advisable.

However, I have always had excellent results by merely going from primary right to bottle in 10 days on many of the Ales I make. I am also patient enough to know that they'll be sitting in the bottle for a month, 2 or more and that is the other key point to this method. There are supposedly subtle differences between bottle conditioning vs. bulk conditioning, what they are I am not sure anyone has quantified these effects (or so I have not come across). I do know that highly successful breweries like Ommegang bottle condition their Ales after they are in the cold cellar for 2 weeks (for clarification).

TerapinChef said:

All right...here's an experiment for you.
I just brewed my second batch of Orfy's Hobgoblin Clone.
Due to the overwhelming popularity of the first batch, I decided to make this brewday my inaugural 10 gallon batch. We'll leave aside the details of that experience in lieu of this one...
I ended up with just over 11 gallons of beautiful brown wort. Being as that I don't have a glycol jacketed pressure fermenter, or anything close, I split the batch into two 6.5G carboys. Here's what I'm proposing. I'm going to leave one carboy in primary for a full 28 days. I'll split the other into a secondary after about 14. Both will be bottled using the same technique and then a tasting will ensue. I'll report back the results and see if we can tell the difference.

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I'm really looking forward to the results of this experiment. I have always used a secondary, but on my latest batch I'm just going to leave it in the primary for 21-28 days. I'll be eager to see if my outcome parallels yours.

Chad

Chad said:

I'm really looking forward to the results of this experiment. I have always used a secondary, but on my latest batch I'm just going to leave it in the primary for 21-28 days. I'll be eager to see if my outcome parallels yours.

Chad

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It will be a good step and I am curious as well, but I'd caution applying the results across the board to all styles. I'd also recommend several random samples from each method and several tasters. :fro:

Looking forward to the results.

I've only done one no-secondary batch and decided not to repeat. It may be because my primary is in a carboy, not a bucket, but the krausen left hefty deposits on the upper, inside portion of the carboy. When I inserted the racking cane I couldn't help but knock some of these deposits off into the beer. Maybe it didn't hurt the final result, but I didn't like having it drop into the beer just before racking into the bottling bucket. Of course, as they (whoever they are) say, your mileage may vary.

Rick

zoebisch01 said:

Sorry I missed responding to this, but TheFlatLine gives a good answer. I want to restate my stance on this, every recipe will have it's own time frame of when it is ready and another time frame when it peaks. Secondary is really a place where the yeast can continue dropping out of suspension. If you want less sediment in your bottle then a secondary is advisable.

However, I have always had excellent results by merely going from primary right to bottle in 10 days on many of the Ales I make. I am also patient enough to know that they'll be sitting in the bottle for a month, 2 or more and that is the other key point to this method. There are supposedly subtle differences between bottle conditioning vs. bulk conditioning, what they are I am not sure anyone has quantified these effects (or so I have not come across). I do know that highly successful breweries like Ommegang bottle condition their Ales after they are in the cold cellar for 2 weeks (for clarification).

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Thanks mostly to this board and in part to my local homebrew shop I've become much more educated in the last few weeks on this topic. It's funny, re-reading that same post here now I seriously can't believe I let that Newcastle clone age only 10 days before bottling...WTF was I thinking?

The irony is the beer has aged remarkably. I only wish I did not plow through the first box of 24 in the first two weeks. I was reckless. Now I'm down to the last 12 bottles and the flavor has gotten sooo much better. I marked "reserve" on the remaining bottles, requiring a wait before further consumption, but the damage has already been done...

This error will not be repeated on subsequent bottlings.


I have tried both a primary fermentation and a primary to secondary fermentation during the period of this post and to be dead honest...I can't tell a difference in either of the results. It seems the beer solution is resilient enough to make a good product in either environment. Maybe a judge can tell the difference in the product but I sure can't, and ultimately that's all that matters. I'm not out to win awards...I'm out to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

Piotr said:

OK, I will play advocatus diaboli now:

This year I made some experiments with fermentation that go exactly the other way.
I used the procedure descibed here:
http://www.beertools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1693&highlight=tertiary
It goes like that: Primary as short as possible, brief secondary, and long and cold tertiary for a few weeks.

Autolysis? No, this is not the biggest thread. I'm worried about trub from cold break - it contains some proteins, the food for microbes.
About yeast: when you rack to secondary, you don't get rid of all the yeast, only the dead and week that have already flocculated to the bottom. There is still plenty of healthy yeast in suspension, that will do the cleaning job.

The yield of the experiment was like that: a few times I got under-attenuated beer. But 4 of the beers won prizes.

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Under-attenuated beer? I'm going to say that has nothing to do with using a secondary and everything with pulling your beer out before it's done fermenting.

If you're *really* worried about cold break proteins, then just whirlpool in your boil kettle and siphon out, leaving the cold break & hops behind.

My point was that if you have off flavors in your beer, letting it rest on the yeast cake, or at the very least letting it bulk age, will clean the off flavors out quicker. For my hefe that I brewed, that was as short as 3 days time (the fermentation was done, but the flavor went from "ick OMG this is horrible" to "damn I could drink this for breakfast" in 3 days. I'm not sure that would have happened if I bottle conditioned.)

Besides, it seems like there is some confusion here. I thought most of the yeast in the sediment was dormant, and not actually dead yet. I mean, you can pour wort directly onto the yeast cake and have it go berserk a few hours later, which would lead me to believe that most of that yeast isn't dead, but in stasis.

duskb said:

Thanks mostly to this board and in part to my local homebrew shop I've become much more educated in the last few weeks on this topic. It's funny, re-reading that same post here now I seriously can't believe I let that Newcastle clone age only 10 days before bottling...WTF was I thinking?

The irony is the beer has aged remarkably. I only wish I did not plow through the first box of 24 in the first two weeks. I was reckless. Now I'm down to the last 12 bottles and the flavor has gotten sooo much better. I marked "reserve" on the remaining bottles, requiring a wait before further consumption, but the damage has already been done...

This error will not be repeated on subsequent bottlings.


I have tried both a primary fermentation and a primary to secondary fermentation during the period of this post and to be dead honest...I can't tell a difference in either of the results. It seems the beer solution is resilient enough to make a good product in either environment. Maybe a judge can tell the difference in the product but I sure can't, and ultimately that's all that matters. I'm not out to win awards...I'm out to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

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Hence why people skip secondary. I'll use secondary if I need to open up a fermentation vessel, as my "secondary" bucket is like a 5.5 gallon capacity, and would overflow easily with a vigorous fermentation.

TheFlatline said:

Besides, it seems like there is some confusion here. I thought most of the yeast in the sediment was dormant, and not actually dead yet. I mean, you can pour wort directly onto the yeast cake and have it go berserk a few hours later, which would lead me to believe that most of that yeast isn't dead, but in stasis.

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Exactly, which is why I have no qualms doing it the way I do, well that and my personal experiences have proven it time and time again. It's not like the yeast at the bottom are interacting anymore .

TheFlatline said:

Besides, it seems like there is some confusion here. I thought most of the yeast in the sediment was dormant, and not actually dead yet. I mean, you can pour wort directly onto the yeast cake and have it go berserk a few hours later, which would lead me to believe that most of that yeast isn't dead, but in stasis.

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That's true, but near the end of fermentation, when the yeast figure out that they are running out of food they stop producing alcohol and start building glycogen reserves. That glycogen is what they live on while dormant. Once that runs out, the yeasts start to die, releasing decomposition products into the wort and giving it a meaty, brothy flavor. That's autolysis.

Chad

Chad said:

That's true, but near the end of fermentation, when the yeast figure out that they are running out of food they stop producing alcohol and start building glycogen reserves. That glycogen is what they live on while dormant. Once that runs out, the yeasts start to die, releasing decomposition products into the wort and giving it a meaty, brothy flavor. That's autolysis.

Chad

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That kind of brings me to why I secondary for my big beers or beers that will be lagered. Most big beers I plan on keeping over the 1 year mark, with which the affects of autolysis can occur, granted in very small amounts. The flocculation of the yeast prior to bottling can help prevent these effects.

I've only brewed 3 beers so I'm no expert but I look at the use of a secondary as more interaction with the beer making process. It gives me something to do and observe the changes during the whole brewing process.

TheFlatline said:

If you're *really* worried about cold break proteins, then just whirlpool in your boil kettle and siphon out, leaving the cold break & hops behind.

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There is no way to remove the cold break completely from primary fermentation (well, except flotation used by big breweries). Just look at the yeast cake - it is never clean, no matter how much you whirlpool.

Well, you did't convince me to long primary yet. To do it, I must make two assumptions:

1. The yeast on the bottom of the fermenter, although dormant, somehow still work on the beer, thats why we don't want to get rid of them too early
2. The cold trub and microbes that might grow on it are not very dangerous for beer.

is there any way to prove it?

Piotr said:

1. The yeast on the bottom of the fermenter, although dormant, somehow still work on the beer, thats why we don't want to get rid of them too early
2. The cold trub and microbes that might grow on it are not very dangerous for beer.

is there any way to prove it?

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Considering the John Palmer passage I quoted in this thread earlier, there's also this...passage by him in the autolyses section in the lagering chapter.

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.

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And personal eaperience...I have certain brews that I rebrew all the time, and amber ale, and a clone of rogue deadguy...I used to secondary after about 10 days...Well I brewed the deadguy and didn't get to rack it, and didn't even get to touch it for a month before I could bottle it.. I still had a couple bottles of the previous secondaried batch, when the month in primary/to bottle came online...exactly the same recipe...

The ones left in primary for a month were cleared, didn't have any chillhaze and tasted better, (according to several people) then the ones that went in secondary...Since then I've repeated it with several other batches and had the same results.

Words like "crisp," "jewel like" and "clean tasting" have been used to describe my month on primary batches....and I have to agree...But like so much in brewing it comes down to personal preference...

I didn't even KNOW this was a common practice until after I did it..I used to believe in the autolyses bogeyman andget it off the cake asap...Didn't realize I was missing out on better quality beer.

I've just found that letting the yeasties work for me, both in the fermenter and in the botlles (see my never dump your beer thread/blog) does a heck of alot to put my beer over the edge in terms of quality.

Revvy said:

The ones left in primary for a month were cleared, didn't have any chillhaze and tasted better, (according to several people) then the ones that went in secondary...Since then I've repeated it with several other batches and had the same results.

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Well, that makes me at list willing to try this techniqe. You know, what I will do? I will split a batch in 2 fermenters; equal time of fermentation; but one with secondary and one with primary only. Blind testing them side-by-side will be the proof I need.

Soulive said:

Since I started kegging, I've stopped secondarying. I haven't had any negative impact. YMMV, RDWHAHB, to each their own, etc...

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Amen I will never do secondaries again, not need to in my case. Primary to Keg.

I'm planning on leaving my American Wheat in Primary for a total of about 3 weeks. When I rack to keg, is there any reason not to put it in the kegerator to condition cold? Also, is there a reason not to hook it up to co2 right away?

I was thinking of racking to keg, stick in the fridge and carb at a lower psi for a week or two to condition and carb at the same time. Instead of shake and bake. any problems ahead for me?

EDIT: I guess the general question is, should I condition the beer then force-carb it, or should I force-carb and condition at the same time? I'll be doing an Oatmeal Stout sometime and I'd like to take it home for the holidays. Should I force-carb the batch, then bottle what I want and set aside, or let the whole batch sit in the keg to age and carb it when it's ready?

^any input on this? thanks.

SilverKing said:

^any input on this? thanks.

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Are you expecting this American Wheat to clear? It's probably not going to, and any amount of cold conditioning isn't going to change that. 3 weeks in primary ought to be enough to go straight to the keg and drink. Hell, if I'm doing a German hefe, it'll be on tap in about two weeks from brewing it. Same with stouts, even if it did "clear" you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. Wheats and stouts are my "quick" beers.

As for your question about conditioning while carbing, it's fine. Hook up the gas and wait.

yeah, I'm more concerned with ales in general. when to condition and when to keg. Just trying to develop a process to repeat for future batches.

No secondaries here either, unless its a lager, big beer or if I'm adding fruit or something to that nature.
I have left them up to 6 weeks in the primary and I think they are clearer than when I used to secondary them all.

TerapinChef said:

I'll report back the results and see if we can tell the difference.

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Still waiting, growing impatient now. *thump thump*

I have two lagers going right now, both will go straight to the keg. The swill beer will stay in the primary for four weeks or until I get impatient and decide to take the space back for kegs in the kegerator. The other (Munich Helles) is getting six weeks. Both will be lagered in the keg for one month before tapping. I will post pics to this thread when they are tapped.

Revvy said:

The thing to remember is that the only "right way" to brew is the way that's right for you...What provides you with beer that meets your standards...

There are some absolutes, like Sanitization and Patience, but the brewing methodolgy employed, usually comes down to personal experience, and developing your process.

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Sorry for the graveyard bump, but I signed up just to quote this and say thanks. I've got my second ever brew in the primary and was considering leaving it in for a couple weeks; thread gave me the direction to leave it alone.

Quoted for the good advice!

reibrew said:

Sorry for the graveyard bump, but I signed up just to quote this and say thanks. I've got my second ever brew in the primary and was considering leaving it in for a couple weeks; thread gave me the direction to leave it alone.

Quoted for the good advice!

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Man this thread is one of the first discussions on this topic, 4 years ago. A lot has changed since then, no secondary has really become less controversial, it's become quite common actually, BYO magazine, & Basic Brewing have tested it out, and written about it. Many, many recipes in BYO and even some kits are starting to reflect this idea...and even John Palmer backed off of what he wrote in the first edition of How to Brew, and has even advocated not racking to secondary.

If you want to catch up on that, read, To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .

It's sort of the UBER discussion on the topic, and there's links to all the information that has come up, and folks have ventured their opinions and such on it in there. But looking at this and some of the contentious earlier threads, and looking at that one, you can see how far this discussion has come.