Grainfather!!

Tang10 · Jan 27, 2017

TexasWine said:
Let me try to make sense of this. If all the water is going through the grain bed, and said water is cooler than the set temp on the controller, this cool water will make its way through the grain bed and show up in the bottom of the kettle where the temp probe is. The temp probe would measure the cooler temperature and provide the feedback that would tell the controller to turn the element on. But the crux is that temp will never be higher than the set point in the controller :/

It is an interesting problem, what with the water being recirculated to the top of the grain bed can never be warmer than the set temp on the controller because of the location of the probe. The water on top is bound to cool below the set point whether one is overflowing or not.

Would it make a difference, and has anyone tried, setting their temp a few degrees warmer than desired mash temp then measured the bed temp. Seems that with this set up one would need a degree or so of "superheat" , if you will, to hit the desired bed temp. Feels very similar to a HERMS set up.

So, considering all this, maybe you're on to something. If you make sure the temp on top and bottom is as close to the same temp as possible, that would hopefully keep the temps in the middle as close to the set temp as possible, assuming the gain bed is flowing at a reasonable rate. I like your idea if turning off your pump every so often to make sure the grain bed is flowing. That seems to be the best of both worlds.

I also have to remind myself that this is a simple analog controller with a pretty wide band on hysteresis. You just won't be able to hold temps to within 1/10 of a degree, so maybe this whole conversation is more academic in nature than practical.

Thats exactly what I do............raise the controller temp a few temps so my grain bed temp probe is at my desired mash temp. If I want 152F, I might need 153F or 154F on the controller to hit desired temp.

I use pipe insulation on all my external pipes leading up the recirculating pipe to minimize heat loss when it exists the return pipe. Total of $1.00 in insulation material.

I can say the the better the grain bed flow the closer the controller temp can be to your desired temp in the grain bed.

Jamie

Teesquar · Jan 27, 2017

DarkUncle said:
Only true way to know is just calculate your efficiency. I'm hovering in the low 80's with dialing the valve back some to just allowing a little bit to go down the pipe. I also do 90 minute mashes though too. Not changing a thing.

And i just let mine go full bore with 80-85 efficiency and going to keep it that way. Like I said ... it's a Coke vs Pepsi preference thing.

Seems like there's no wrong way, at least to me.

brewman ! · Jan 27, 2017

TexasWine: if you look at the chart in the Blichman doc I previously linked, you can see that they set their controller up UNDER damped so that the return liquid temp overshoots the setpoint a bit. The bed temp naturally lags the liquid temp, but because the liquid temp overshoots, the bed temp actually achieves the desired setpoint fairly well.

What this means for the GF I don't know... except that if the GF controller doesn't overshoot, the GF bed is going to take a long time to get up to temp.

TexasWine · Jan 27, 2017

brewman ! said:
TexasWine: if you look at the chart in the Blichman doc I previously linked, you can see that they set their controller up UNDER damped so that the return liquid temp overshoots the setpoint a bit. The bed temp naturally lags the liquid temp, but because the liquid temp overshoots, the bed temp actually achieves the desired setpoint fairly well.

What this means for the GF I don't know... except that if the GF controller doesn't overshoot, the GF bed is going to take a long time to get up to temp.

Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking.

With my set up I have a mash cap and loc line return under that. Temp is measured in the pump discharge. Heat loss at the top is minimal due to the mash cap, and measured grain bed temp is always spot on with what the controller probe is measuring. I leave a second thermometer in the grain bed while mashing because I like to do step mashes and want verification that things are functioning as they should.

DarkUncle · Jan 27, 2017

Teesquar said:
And i just let mine go full bore with 80-85 efficiency and going to keep it that way. Like I said ... it's a Coke vs Pepsi preference thing.

Seems like there's no wrong way, at least to me.

Totally agree. If you find what works for you then stick with it. What I have coming out of the Grainfather beats anything of the commercial variety in my opinion and I'm very much enjoying the process.

WesM63 · Jan 27, 2017

Just finished brewing with the Connect. Awesome piece of hardware and well worth every penny.

My previous comment about the mounting mechanism was a moot point. I only physically touched the connect box twice (to turn the pump on/off during a whirlpool/hopstand)

I exported my recipe from beersmith into a beerxml file, opened said xml file on my phone and hit "sent to Grainfather connect". Once in the connect app I just loaded the recipe and the Grainfather went through the steps flawlessly. The connect manages the mash temp with ease and super accurately. You can see on the connects screen what power it's putting to the element(s) to keep the mash temp spot on.

I did have an efficiency problem, but that was no fault to the connect or the Grainfather. That was my issue, I did not make sure the top plate was in the correct location and failed to control the recirculation flow. (Ended up with 60% efficient and way undershot my OG)

Any any rate, the connect takes a great system and makes it even better.

Teesquar · Jan 28, 2017

Ha. With all this talk of overflow or slow/no overflow .... Brewing a Bitter right now with only 8.5# of 2% water conditioned grains; .039" Barley Crusher setting. The flow through the grain bed is such that nothing going down the overflow tube. All being filtered through the bed. Not expecting a stuck/slow sparge this time

Teesquar · Jan 28, 2017

Oh. Using the micro pipe due to the small bill. Thinking to myself not to hit the pipe and push it down while loading the grains. Sure as ****e, with the last grain poured in, I hit the spring clip and push it down. Scrambled to get a rubber glove on to pull it back up. Don't think too much grain entered the wort.

BrewinSoldier · Jan 28, 2017

I brewed a hop bomb on mine last night. I decided to try something different since my pump always clogs on hoppy beers. I decided to use an all stainless 50' immersion chiller instead of the grainfather chiller. It actually worked way better. I found one online that is the perfect fit for the grainfather. I hand calculated all of my mash and sparge water measurements and for the first time, I hit all my numbers finally. I also did my grain crush differently this time at 0.45 on the barley crusher.

So I did have two problems. My grain bill was 13.5lbs and 1.5lbs of that was flaked oats. I had to stop the mash twice just to re stir and add rice hulls because the water wasn't flowing through the grainbed very well. The during the whirlpool at 160, the black cap fell off on my filter and completely clogged the pump. I had to empty the whole damn batch by hand which was very annoying. I have read about other people having problems with this as well. I sure wish they'd redesign their filter. We will see how it came out, but keeping my fingers crossed.

Teesquar · Jan 28, 2017

BrewinSoldier said:
I brewed a hop bomb on mine last night. I decided to try something different since my pump always clogs on hoppy beers. I decided to use an all stainless 50' immersion chiller instead of the grainfather chiller. It actually worked way better. I found one online that is the perfect fit for the grainfather. I hand calculated all of my mash and sparge water measurements and for the first time, I hit all my numbers finally. I also did my grain crush differently this time at 0.45 on the barley crusher.

So I did have two problems. My grain bill was 13.5lbs and 1.5lbs of that was flaked oats. I had to stop the mash twice just to re stir and add rice hulls because the water wasn't flowing through the grainbed very well. The during the whirlpool at 160, the black cap fell off on my filter and completely clogged the pump. I had to empty the whole damn batch by hand which was very annoying. I have read about other people having problems with this as well. I sure wish they'd redesign their filter. We will see how it came out, but keeping my fingers crossed.

I just use a " No fly zone" when I stir. Nothing too low and only in the half way from the filter. One filter knock off cured me.

I use a Barley Crusher at.039, but condition the grains with 2% grain weight, in ounces, with water. Get the finer crush and non splintered husks. Adds a little upfront time but works for me. Once I hit 10 pounds and above I do throw in some rice hulls, though.

DarkUncle · Jan 28, 2017

Just started the boil. Planned pre-boil OG was 1.040 and ended up at 1.050 set at 75% brew house efficiency. Hell of a system.

BrewinSoldier · Jan 28, 2017

Teesquar said:
I just use a " No fly zone" when I stir. Nothing too low and only in the half way from the filter. One filter knock off cured me.

I use a Barley Crusher at.039, but condition the grains with 2% grain weight, in ounces, with water. Get the finer crush and non splintered husks. Adds a little upfront time but works for me. Once I hit 10 pounds and above I do throw in some rice hulls, though.

Yeah I don't know how mine came off but I really think they need to redesign it. What if it's completely blocked with hops and you want to scrape them off with your paddle to get the flow going again? You can't with this because you will more than likely knock the cap off. I'm wondering why that cap is even on there to begin with but I'm guessing it has something to do with cleaning.

What they should do is take the current design, put some threads on the outside, and have a stainless cap that just screws on. That way you can still take it off to clean but that sucker won't come off. I may buy an extra and experiment when I get some time.

skraeling · Jan 28, 2017

BrewinSoldier said:
Yeah I don't know how mine came off but I really think they need to redesign it. What if it's completely blocked with hops and you want to scrape them off with your paddle to get the flow going again? You can't with this because you will more than likely knock the cap off. I'm wondering why that cap is even on there to begin with but I'm guessing it has something to do with cleaning.

What they should do is take the current design, put some threads on the outside, and have a stainless cap that just screws on. That way you can still take it off to clean but that sucker won't come off. I may buy an extra and experiment when I get some time.

why i just got a hopspider.

BrewinSoldier · Jan 29, 2017

skraeling said:
why i just got a hopspider.

I have a hop spider, a few different ones actually, and you just don't get the hoo utilization you get vs the hops interacting and stiring around in the boil the whole time. The same goes with hops in the fermenter. I have done that about every which way as well. In all of the batches I have done, there is a big difference on flavor and aroma.

gotbeer74 · Jan 29, 2017

I'm thinking of modifying and trying a 12 inch kettle screen. I used them when I did 10 gallon batches and never had an issue with slow transfers to fermenter.

skraeling · Jan 29, 2017

BrewinSoldier said:
I have a hop spider, a few different ones actually, and you just don't get the hoo utilization you get vs the hops interacting and stiring around in the boil the whole time. The same goes with hops in the fermenter. I have done that about every which way as well. In all of the batches I have done, there is a big difference on flavor and aroma.

whats the largest micron size one you have tried?

bigtex52 · Jan 29, 2017

BrewinSoldier said:
I have a hop spider, a few different ones actually, and you just don't get the hoo utilization you get vs the hops interacting and stiring around in the boil the whole time. The same goes with hops in the fermenter. I have done that about every which way as well. In all of the batches I have done, there is a big difference on flavor and aroma.

Mine hasn't been the same experience as yours. There are so many other variables that can change the taste and profile of your beer other than the use of a hop spider or dry hopper, I don't see how you can make that claim with such certainty. Can there be very slight differences in hop utilizations between various methods , sure, just as there can be variations in hop utilizations between batches done the same way at different times. If I need to bump up a hop addition slightly to get to a desired taste or profile when using a spider, hops are cheap, relatively. Just my .02.

Kampenken · Jan 29, 2017

TheMadKing said:
I completely agree that it doesn't add up, I must be missing something somewhere. I asked about cleaning, and he cleans it thoroughly after every batch. Correct that the result is consistent, extremely long without rice hulls, way too fast with a small amount of rice hulls.

I need to actually watch him brew again, there must be something that he's doing that he's not thinking to mention or isn't aware of.

What happens in a Grainfather if you drain the first runnings from the basket completely before adding sparge water? Just a thought I had. If the grain bed is compacting before he adds the sparge water it, it might cause a slow sparge?

Figured I'd post my results today. Brewing a Hazlenut Toffee Porter (AIH present from my daughter) and with grain bill of:
8.25# 2 Row, 1# Fl Barley, 1# Crystal 60, 1/2# Black Malt & 1/2# Chocolate Malt, I was able to sparge 3.3g in 25min; let it sit until it became quiet (another 5 min) so could say in total 30min. By end of sparge my wort temp was 200. No stuck/slow sparge, no hulls.

Teesquar said:
Ha. With all this talk of overflow or slow/no overflow .... Brewing a Bitter right now with only 8.5# of 2% water conditioned grains; .039" Barley Crusher setting. The flow through the grain bed is such that nothing going down the overflow tube. All being filtered through the bed. Not expecting a stuck/slow sparge this time

Cheers mate! I figured I'd post today while brewing on this topic too.

BrewinSoldier said:
I have a hop spider, a few different ones actually, and you just don't get the hoo utilization you get vs the hops interacting and stiring around in the boil the whole time. The same goes with hops in the fermenter. I have done that about every which way as well. In all of the batches I have done, there is a big difference on flavor and aroma.

Idk about this, as bigtex writes below, but I am considering hop extract, been reading some on that lately, and especially in the fermenter it sounds interesting, cleaner yeast harvesting!

bigtex52 said:
Mine hasn't been the same experience as yours. There are so many other variables that can change the taste and profile of your beer other than the use of a hop spider or dry hopper, I don't see how you can make that claim with such certainty. Can there be very slight differences in hop utilizations between various methods , sure, just as there can be variations in hop utilizations between batches done the same way at different times. If I need to bump up a hop addition slightly to get to a desired taste or profile when using a spider, hops are cheap, relatively. Just my .02.

I agree. Water profile is argued about its impact- chloride / sulfate ratios for example. I haven't "proven" this to myself, but do adjust profiles based on hop profile of beer.
I use my hop basket and do stir it up every so often, and have been known to let some splash out

with no issues.

Anyone using hop extracts?

TheMadKing · Jan 29, 2017

Kampenken said:
The GF instructions recommend draining off 1st runnings and then sparge. For one you need to get the top plate down first. I usually let it drain well but have started maybe

a bit earlier a few times, both results were fine. Pushing the top plate down on grain bed is just until the plate shows liquid. Not tight.

Go watch him and report back, we want to hear the end of this story!

Ok guys.. Got the issue figured out.

The low mash efficiency was due to the short sparge contact time with the grains. He's begun to crush his own at .035 and had a good batch with no stuck sparge and 80% efficiency.

As for the underattenuated batch... He was checking the final gravity with a refractometer.. Got him sorted on that one.

Lesson learned, ask even the most basic questions because you never know what assumptions you're making. Thanks for all the help!

Rijnland · Jan 29, 2017

WesM63 said:
Just finished brewing with the Connect. Awesome piece of hardware and well worth every penny.

My previous comment about the mounting mechanism was a moot point. I only physically touched the connect box twice (to turn the pump on/off during a whirlpool/hopstand)

I exported my recipe from beersmith into a beerxml file, opened said xml file on my phone and hit "sent to Grainfather connect". Once in the connect app I just loaded the recipe and the Grainfather went through the steps flawlessly. The connect manages the mash temp with ease and super accurately. You can see on the connects screen what power it's putting to the element(s) to keep the mash temp spot on.

My connect box arrived a few days ago and Saturday I mounted it and plugged it in. No response. It seems to be dead on arrival. I've checked and rechecked all the plugs, but the screen never lights up. There does not appear to be a reset button or anything like that. I've sent email to Imake and hope to get a response soon, but I was wondering if anyone else has encountered the same problem. Is [email protected] the correct email address to use?

WesM63 · Jan 29, 2017

Rijnland said:
My connect box arrived a few days ago and Saturday I mounted it and plugged it in. No response. It seems to be dead on arrival. I've checked and rechecked all the plugs, but the screen never lights up. There does not appear to be a reset button or anything like that. I've sent email to Imake and hope to get a response soon, but I was wondering if anyone else has encountered the same problem. Is [email protected] the correct email address to use?

Sorry to hear, I didn't have any issues with mine. It looks like that's the only email address they have listed on their website. If that doesn't work, I would try one of their social media accounts (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.)

thenewton · Jan 30, 2017

My GF came in a bit banged up and used strictly the email address to handle all issues, which they did. Took a good week plus to get things sorted out but finally did. It takes a little patience with the time difference, GF replies would usually hit me about 9 or 10 pm central time. All worked out well for me anyway.

skraeling · Jan 30, 2017

preordered my connect box. heres hoping they get into stock soon... have had my eye on it since it came out. be nice not having to flip the stupid mash/normal switch.

PCL · Jan 30, 2017

Brewed my first batch on new GF, went great. My first all grain brew in fact. 70% efficiency and could push up with a better crush. Went very smoothly and equipment worked exactly like the videos etc.

Thank you all for your advice and tips from previous posts. I was very prepared and all your experience helped make that happen.

brewman ! · Jan 30, 2017

Introducing the 35L RoboBrew
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntxy0ach9JU[/ame]

It is the unit on the right.

It has a couple nice features
- a full bottom screen to keep stuff out of the pump
- 1900 and 600 watt elements, can both be run at once
- larger capacity ? Main kettle is 9.24 gallons.
- side handles
- handles on the glass lid
- side tap with ball valve

Cons
- it comes with an immersion chiller rather than a counterflow chiller.
- the controller probably isn't as nice, especially compared to the Connect unit.

It looks like it uses 240VAC.

Edit: my local online HBS tells me it will be at least 6 months before they have one for sale. And they are a big Keg King dealer.

skraeling · Jan 30, 2017

brewman ! said:
Introducing the 35L RoboBrew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntxy0ach9JU

It is the unit on the right.

It has a couple nice features
- a full bottom screen to keep stuff out of the pump
- 1900 and 600 watt elements, can both be run at once
- larger capacity ? Main kettle is 9.24 gallons.
- side handles
- handles on the glass lid
- side tap with ball valve

Cons
- it comes with an immersion chiller rather than a counterflow chiller.
- the controller probably isn't as nice, especially compared to the Connect unit.

It looks like it uses 240VAC.

Edit: my local online HBS tells me it will be at least 6 months before they have one for sale. And they are a big Keg King dealer.

Has some stuff I like some stuff I dont. I can always add another screen to my bottom mesh plate if I dont like how its filtering.

RedlegEd · Jan 30, 2017

brewman ! said:
Edit: my local online HBS tells me it will be at least 6 months before they have one for sale. And they are a big Keg King dealer.

skraeling said:
Has some stuff I like some stuff I dont. I can always add another screen to my bottom mesh plate if I dont like how its filtering.

Very nice (and interesting.) Obviously, they liberally "borrowed" some of the better features of the GF, and incorporated a few new ones of their own. I wonder what their price point in the US with 110VAC system will be? Ed
:mug:

Kampenken · Jan 30, 2017

RedlegEd said:
Very nice (and interesting.) Obviously, they liberally "borrowed" some of the better features of the GF, and incorporated a few new ones of their own. I wonder what their price point in the US with 110VAC system will be? Ed

Borrowed?? Holy crap, they swiped a lot! You'd think they'd would've done a better job with that video, background noise and awkward elevation of the product (a table that can rise and fall would be great with this, drop during sparge, raised rest of time). I'd be pissed if I was the GF team, but I guess that was bound to happen. If their price point is below the GF, this could steal some purchases, but the 240v will appeal to that different market regardless price compared to GF. My guess is the 110v market is the sweet spot in US & CD markets.

Favorite line from video- Tap on bottom is helpful, like if the power were to go out!! Well if it went out just as I was done, ok, but really??!!

Kampenken · Jan 30, 2017

I've continued to be curious about the Mash & Boil. Well there have been 4 reviews on WillamsBrewing, all 5 stars.

Folks considering a purchase should look at this one as well ($299). Not a like comparison to a GF, but might be something to consider...

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/BREWERS-EDGE-MASH-BOIL--P4216.aspx

RedlegEd · Jan 30, 2017

Kampenken said:
I've continued to be curious about the Mash & Boil. Well there have been 4 reviews on WillamsBrewing, all 5 stars.

Folks considering a purchase should look at this one as well ($299). Not a like comparison to a GF, but might be something to consider...

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/BREWERS-EDGE-MASH-BOIL--P4216.aspx

Hi. While we're talking about comparisons, here's one on the GF vs the new Robobrew. Ed
:mug:

Grainfather!!

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