Ha Ha Ha "Dates up" love it. Its kind of just like us brewers! We always seem to date up... I know I sure did.
Cheers
Jay
BrunDog 50A eRig - no HLT for me!
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Ha Ha Ha "Dates up" love it. Its kind of just like us brewers! We always seem to date up... I know I sure did.
Cheers
Jay
Love the build.
QQ - you mentioned in another thread of a hydrostatic sensor to measure volume. Doesn't look like it was used here. Was it used in another build?
- Where did you get the large (looks like 3/4" or better) cam quick connects?
QQ - you mentioned in another thread of a hydrostatic sensor to measure volume. Doesn't look like it was used here. Was it used in another build?
- Where did you get the large (looks like 3/4" or better) cam quick connects?
OP
OP
Thanks. See post 221.
The 3/4" Female NPT - Camlock fittings are from brewhardware.com
The 3/4" Female NPT - Camlock fittings are from brewhardware.com
canmorebrewguy
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Hey BrunDog,
I am just getting around to building my temp probes and I bought the thermistors that you recommended but I can not find the coefficients for them. Would you know where I can find them or better yet do you know them?
I looked on Cantherms site and all i could find is resistance charts, and I am getting way out of my depth.
Cheers,
CBG
OP
OP
I used an online calculator to determine them. I am away from my computer right now but will look them up and reply later.
Check out the following link for more on calculating the steinhart-hart coefficients from resistance curves. There is a program that can be used to do the math for you. If you Google around there is probably a spreadsheet out there somewhere that might be easier to use than their software.
http://thermistor.sourceforge.net
However, if BrunDog is nice enough he can probably give the coefficients he is using.
http://thermistor.sourceforge.net
However, if BrunDog is nice enough he can probably give the coefficients he is using.
canmorebrewguy
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I tried using a calculator from the bcs website but after I enter the last temp the graph wipes out. Then I saw that there are 4 different values of resistance in the 10K range so now I am confused
OP
OP
Here are the values I have been using:
A = 0.0011235946
B = 0.0002356964
C = 7.6010879159e-8
Here is my calculator of choice: http://www.thinksrs.com/downloads/programs/Therm Calc/NTCCalibrator/NTCcalculator.htm
canmorebrewguy
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Sir you are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you for the quick response and the help.
Cheers,
Todd
OP
OP
Just added an external reset button and internal-external pathway for the USB connection (for debugging). I actually have little reason for these as it's been solid for weeks - the LiPo battery has ensured continuity through power failures, etc. I have put the lid on it with less expectation of needing to open it.
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How has this level sensor been holding up? Do you do periodic calibration checks? I bought one of these sensors a few years ago but never got around to playing with it... yet.
I seem to remember the brewtroller guys needed the bubbler for accurate readings, I don't remember the details. Have you found a way around this?
OP
OP
Hi. Yes, it has been working flawlessly, and surprisingly accurate. More accurate I think than my eyes reading a sight glass!
Calibration is idiot easy because all I have to do is fill the port until it reaches the top. That is zero. Or, when it is empty, it is a negative number (-15 qts or so), so it cal be calibrated that way too. But that said, it never really needs calibration.
The bubbler solution is for those placing a stainless tube into their vessel from the top. The bubbler thing is necessary in that configuration because the changing air temperature inside affects the liquid height in the tube, and it needs to stay at the bottom. Since mine is bottom and remote mounted, or more importantly, relies on a very small volume of air to isolate the sensor, this is not required on this type of configuration. TBH, I am surprised someone else hasn't done it this way.
I am going to SIDE mount the sensor in my BK. The benefit of side mounting, other than nothing underneath the vessel, is there is no need to drain the port of its column of liquid post use. Done right, it will self drain. I figure for the BK, given all the hops in the liquid, this is a better approach. The downside is that you can't read from zero liquid up. This is of course not necessary, as I will always be looking for measurements > 5 gallons. The lowest I think I can get it will result in reading at around the 1 gallon+ mark. I will post up pictures when done!
Calibration is idiot easy because all I have to do is fill the port until it reaches the top. That is zero. Or, when it is empty, it is a negative number (-15 qts or so), so it cal be calibrated that way too. But that said, it never really needs calibration.
The bubbler solution is for those placing a stainless tube into their vessel from the top. The bubbler thing is necessary in that configuration because the changing air temperature inside affects the liquid height in the tube, and it needs to stay at the bottom. Since mine is bottom and remote mounted, or more importantly, relies on a very small volume of air to isolate the sensor, this is not required on this type of configuration. TBH, I am surprised someone else hasn't done it this way.
I am going to SIDE mount the sensor in my BK. The benefit of side mounting, other than nothing underneath the vessel, is there is no need to drain the port of its column of liquid post use. Done right, it will self drain. I figure for the BK, given all the hops in the liquid, this is a better approach. The downside is that you can't read from zero liquid up. This is of course not necessary, as I will always be looking for measurements > 5 gallons. The lowest I think I can get it will result in reading at around the 1 gallon+ mark. I will post up pictures when done!
How are your latest whirlpool attempts? Still using this dam?
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OP
I have generally been going without as of late, probably more of lazyness and the fact that it sometimes changes its orientation during the boil. The nipple screwed into the bottom helps act as a small damn and seems to work OK. I think the whirlpool works well, but I probably still pull too much hop debris in. Just haven't worked hard to address it yet.
OP
OP
Along with BruControl changes, I finally got around to adding liquid level sensing to my Boil Kettle. Several posts up, I showed a way to add liquid level sensing to my Mash Tun using an air pressure sensor. I would prefer a direct contact sensor but they are wicked expensive for the task. So using regular air pressure sensors makes sense at ~$15 each. This has been done before so I take no credit, but I did implement the technique which I hadn't seen before.
I think it is a good approach because it almost eliminates air in tube above the sensor. This is important because as the temperature of the air changes, its volume changes too, drawing in liquid volume as it cools. This volume change problem is pronounced when using a long tube into the kettle, and is typically mitigated using the "air bubbler" design - but that is hardware I would rather not need.
This time I opted a slightly different configuration. Rather than the liquid column underneath I added a port to the side of the kettle. Here is a look at the layouts for comparison:
The design on the left (my mash tun) has the benefit of measuring liquid from zero, which also makes zero calibration easy - all I have to do is fill the tube until it just overflows into the tun bottom. But, this can collect stray grains and requires flushing after, therfore needs a valve to dump the flush. On the right (now my boil kettle), there is no flushing needed after, but I cannot measure from zero which makes calibrating a little more difficult. Of course measuring from the bottom is not critical because we are doing volumes well over 5 gallons.
Here is a look at the install. I would have prefered to solder on a half coupling, but it would have required me taking the BK off the stand which would have been a PITA because of the motorized valve mounted to the bottom. So I put together a simple weldless design.
Here are the fittings. This is a SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow, some washers, jam nut, and o-ring. One of the washers is trimmed to avoid pinching the tube. The tubing is tygon, which is soft, pliable, and can stand the heat.
I drilled a hole low in the kettle:
Taped the fitting, put through, and added the O-ring:
Added the jam nut:
Here is what it looks like outside:
Used a little box for the sensor:
And mounted underneath (what can I say - I like zip ties):
After a brief zero calibration and same multiplier as the mash sensor, all looks good in BC (level in the middle) after adding 5 gallons using a measured pitcher:
Now, one problem with this layout is there is tubing that has air in it. It will be sensitive to temperature changes, and admittedly as I sit here writing this, I am seeing some creep as a result. I will report back after more use!
I think it is a good approach because it almost eliminates air in tube above the sensor. This is important because as the temperature of the air changes, its volume changes too, drawing in liquid volume as it cools. This volume change problem is pronounced when using a long tube into the kettle, and is typically mitigated using the "air bubbler" design - but that is hardware I would rather not need.
This time I opted a slightly different configuration. Rather than the liquid column underneath I added a port to the side of the kettle. Here is a look at the layouts for comparison:
The design on the left (my mash tun) has the benefit of measuring liquid from zero, which also makes zero calibration easy - all I have to do is fill the tube until it just overflows into the tun bottom. But, this can collect stray grains and requires flushing after, therfore needs a valve to dump the flush. On the right (now my boil kettle), there is no flushing needed after, but I cannot measure from zero which makes calibrating a little more difficult. Of course measuring from the bottom is not critical because we are doing volumes well over 5 gallons.
Here is a look at the install. I would have prefered to solder on a half coupling, but it would have required me taking the BK off the stand which would have been a PITA because of the motorized valve mounted to the bottom. So I put together a simple weldless design.
Here are the fittings. This is a SS 1/8" NPT x 0.170" barbed elbow, some washers, jam nut, and o-ring. One of the washers is trimmed to avoid pinching the tube. The tubing is tygon, which is soft, pliable, and can stand the heat.
I drilled a hole low in the kettle:
Taped the fitting, put through, and added the O-ring:
Added the jam nut:
Here is what it looks like outside:
Used a little box for the sensor:
And mounted underneath (what can I say - I like zip ties):
After a brief zero calibration and same multiplier as the mash sensor, all looks good in BC (level in the middle) after adding 5 gallons using a measured pitcher:
Now, one problem with this layout is there is tubing that has air in it. It will be sensitive to temperature changes, and admittedly as I sit here writing this, I am seeing some creep as a result. I will report back after more use!
OP
OP
It's a brewery control and automation system project I've helped develop: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=624198
I edited my sig - thanks for shaking my tree!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I think the thread you linked here was the wrong one..
OP
OP
Thanks AD... fixed it!
OP
OP
Here is a look at my new panel. The BCS was replaced with the Arduino MEGA, and an Ethernet2 shield, mounted on this screw shield:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UT13YXA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
The MEGA communicates with BruControl via ethernet, but I have an ethernet-Wifi bridge (TP-LINK 710N) outside the control panel because I had it for my BCS.
The MEGA communicates with BruControl via ethernet, but I have an ethernet-Wifi bridge (TP-LINK 710N) outside the control panel because I had it for my BCS.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wizard_of_Frobozz
Well-Known Member
As I look at your build thread for the 527th time , I have a few questions regarding your setup:
1. You only use one flowmeter now, correct? It measures flow into the RIMS tube; mash outflow during sparging is controlled via a proportional valve? When I initiate recirculation right after dough-in, I slowly establish recirc while watching my level gauge on the mash tun (it acts like a manometer to tell me when I'm pulling too hard). Eventually I get a stable recirc rate and can walk away from the ball valve. Seem like you could automate this with your setup - your thoughts?
2. Are you using this flowmeter? https://www.adafruit.com/product/828. If so, the specs say it's range is 1-30 L/min. Typical sparge rate is 1qt/min, so slightly below the minimum of this range. How's the accuracy down that low?
3. RIMS Heater size: You use 120V for mashing, and 240V for sparge heating. What do you think about just wiring up the heater for 240V and limiting the duty cycle to 25% during mashing? With a short enough cycle time, it seems like that would achieve the same thing as switching voltage and save a lot of wiring/complexity.
Thanks for such a great build thread and putting up with all our constant questions!
, I have a few questions regarding your setup:1. You only use one flowmeter now, correct? It measures flow into the RIMS tube; mash outflow during sparging is controlled via a proportional valve? When I initiate recirculation right after dough-in, I slowly establish recirc while watching my level gauge on the mash tun (it acts like a manometer to tell me when I'm pulling too hard). Eventually I get a stable recirc rate and can walk away from the ball valve. Seem like you could automate this with your setup - your thoughts?
2. Are you using this flowmeter? https://www.adafruit.com/product/828. If so, the specs say it's range is 1-30 L/min. Typical sparge rate is 1qt/min, so slightly below the minimum of this range. How's the accuracy down that low?
3. RIMS Heater size: You use 120V for mashing, and 240V for sparge heating. What do you think about just wiring up the heater for 240V and limiting the duty cycle to 25% during mashing? With a short enough cycle time, it seems like that would achieve the same thing as switching voltage and save a lot of wiring/complexity.
Thanks for such a great build thread and putting up with all our constant questions!
OP
OP
As I look at your build thread for the 527th time
1. You only use one flowmeter now, correct? It measures flow into the RIMS tube; mash outflow during sparging is controlled via a proportional valve? When I initiate recirculation right after dough-in, I slowly establish recirc while watching my level gauge on the mash tun (it acts like a manometer to tell me when I'm pulling too hard). Eventually I get a stable recirc rate and can walk away from the ball valve. Seem like you could automate this with your setup - your thoughts?
2. Are you using this flowmeter? https://www.adafruit.com/product/828. If so, the specs say it's range is 1-30 L/min. Typical sparge rate is 1qt/min, so slightly below the minimum of this range. How's the accuracy down that low?
3. RIMS Heater size: You use 120V for mashing, and 240V for sparge heating. What do you think about just wiring up the heater for 240V and limiting the duty cycle to 25% during mashing? With a short enough cycle time, it seems like that would achieve the same thing as switching voltage and save a lot of wiring/complexity.
Thanks for such a great build thread and putting up with all our constant questions!
Great questions... you don't miss much!
1. Yes, I use one FM. I don't really care about the flow into/through the boil side. Also, that sees boiling wort, and this cheap FM (along with most, contact or not) cannot handle these temps. The FM is used as a feedback loop to know the rate of the flow. Changing the open% of the proportional valve changes the actual flow rate. You are right about the manometer - I did have an alarm that would go off if the level dropped in the sight glass, and the capacitive sensors (I had) would detect it. I haven't automated the sensing/alarm of an impending stuck mash with this new setup just yet. I am actually not sure how the pressure sensor will react, but I suspect the pressure will drop drastically. You are also right that it is automated (somewhat): I have been empirically handling this by starting with a slow recirc rate following dough-in. After a few minutes (~10) the valve is slightly opened to to go faster. So maybe 6-8 q/min at first, then upward of double that. I haven't had too bad a stuck issue even with wheat beers, except for that pumpkin ale last year... UGH!But that said, I am standing there watching it loosly the whole time. A quick change of the valve value on screen fixes it, just like turning a ball valve handle, just electronic.
2. Yes. Its cheap but I have to say it has been a workhorse. No its not super accurate across the range, especially the low end. But it is *repeatable*, which is what I really care about. I calibrated it and came up with a number of pulses per quart at ~1/min rate (it's 355). Divided this gives me about 6-7 pulses per second at sparge rate. Not very much resolution, but gets the job done. Since sparge temp is not super critical, this works well. I have a loop in my script during sparging that does 4 things: 1. checks the flow rate (and increases or decreases the valve opening slightly if needed). 2. Checks the sparge water temp (and increases or decreases by adjusting the PWM rate slightly if needed). NOTE those two are interdependent so you can't adjust one without the other chasing it. 3. Checks to see if the MLT volume has increased a certain amount, and opens the valve to the BK for a few seconds if so (this is autosparge), and 4. Checks to see if the sparge volume is achieved yet, upon which a timed draining sequence is started.
3. I agree. I haven't tested this, but I think it is possible/practical. If I were building from zero I would probably do that. Power for mashing would be in the single digit range. This is run by PID, so with a fast enough flow rate should run fine. BTW (plug coming...) BruControl is so flexible you can change the PID coefficients via the script - therefore different control environments can be accommodated (like the difference between strike heating and mashing) if you want to. Can't do that with BCS!
This board?! https://store-usa.arduino.cc/produc...m=store.arduino.cc&utm_campaign=303_Redirects
I was originally looking at building out a PID enclosure (currently using an SSVR w/ a pot..). This setup definitely intrigues me to skip the PID [emoji482]
I was originally looking at building out a PID enclosure (currently using an SSVR w/ a pot..). This setup definitely intrigues me to skip the PID [emoji482]
OP
OP
Yes that board. You can buy knock-offs for $15. Just be careful, some are really knocked off, meaning they change some of the chips like the USB chip!
OP
OP
Sorry - its currently down. I will address this there when it comes back online.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I got one of my Megas for $9 shipped from california.. It does use the common ch834 chip/drivers which many of the chinese arduino and usb to serial adapters use but once I installed the drivers everything works fine with brucontrol.
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I didn't have time to read this entire thread, so not sure if anyone has touched on this yet:
1. Your 5 gallon RO containers have brass fittings - that's a no-no for contact with RO water. Suggest you use poly or SS fittings only.
2. Regarding your existing RO system - just a reminder that if you want RO water faster, you can install a higher capacity ("faster" ) membrane in your existing RO system. It will fit the same RO membrane housing you're using now.
3. If you want RO water that is more pure, don't send it to the pressure tank. Without the back pressure of the pressure tank you'll also significantly cut down on the amount of "waste water" and you'll produce RO water much faster.
4. If you change your RO membrane to a higher capacity version, don't forget you'll also need to install a new flow restrictor ($4).
Russ
1. Your 5 gallon RO containers have brass fittings - that's a no-no for contact with RO water. Suggest you use poly or SS fittings only.
2. Regarding your existing RO system - just a reminder that if you want RO water faster, you can install a higher capacity ("faster" ) membrane in your existing RO system. It will fit the same RO membrane housing you're using now.
3. If you want RO water that is more pure, don't send it to the pressure tank. Without the back pressure of the pressure tank you'll also significantly cut down on the amount of "waste water" and you'll produce RO water much faster.
4. If you change your RO membrane to a higher capacity version, don't forget you'll also need to install a new flow restrictor ($4).
Russ
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I wondered about the tank myself since it seems my RO system works faster when I bypass the tank and am filling buckets directly while doing a water change on my reef tank
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The performance of RO membranes is affected in a big way by water pressure (and water temperature). The pressure we look at is called the Net Driving Pressure. NDP is primarily the pressure on the feedwater side of the membrane, minus any back pressure.
So if you have 60 psi feeding the RO, and an empty pressure tank, 60-0 = 60 psi NDP.
But by the time the pressure tank is full, you'll have about 40 psi of back pressure, so the NDP = 60-40=20 psi. Membranes just don't work all that well with only 20 psi NDP.
Russ
So if you have 60 psi feeding the RO, and an empty pressure tank, 60-0 = 60 psi NDP.
But by the time the pressure tank is full, you'll have about 40 psi of back pressure, so the NDP = 60-40=20 psi. Membranes just don't work all that well with only 20 psi NDP.
Russ
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Thanks Russ. I removed the brass a long time ago and replaced with plastic. I have no brass in the whole brewery and I am about to eliminate my copper chillers. The brass had discolored quickly - is this a result of the demineralized water?
I currently use my under-sink RO and fill the tanks from that. It does pressurize a tank there. It takes me about 4-5 fill sessions to get the 10 gallons for a brew. If I need more than that, I just add water separately.
Thanks for the feedback!
I currently use my under-sink RO and fill the tanks from that. It does pressurize a tank there. It takes me about 4-5 fill sessions to get the 10 gallons for a brew. If I need more than that, I just add water separately.
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm afraid to ask this since I love my Hydra IC, but what's the replacement plan? [emoji23]
OP
OP
Would you mind explaining a little bit more the connections? And how it works? I didn't understand what is inside the hose...
Thanks!
OP
OP
Sure. Electrically, there are three connections. Ground on the sensor is tied to system ground, which the micro-controller is also tied to. +5V on the sensor is tied to +5V output of the controller (or 5V power supply). The output of the sensor is tied to an analog input of the controller. The capacitors were added to smooth (filter) any ambient electrical noise.
In terms of the hose, it connects the bottom of the kettle to the sensor pressure measuring port. This pressure is compared to ambient pressure to get the pressure of just the "weight" of the liquid. The hydro-static pressure of liquid is known given its density (specific gravity) and the height of the liquid column. So since we know the density of water or wort, through a calculation we can determine the height of the liquid column from the pressure. More math determines the volume of the liquid from the height, because the diameter of the kettle is known (and fixed).
So inside the hose (it's really a small tube) is really just air. A small amount of the kettle liquid might begin to enter the tube but it has no place to go as the air gets pressurized against the "dead end" of the sensor. Make sense?
In terms of the hose, it connects the bottom of the kettle to the sensor pressure measuring port. This pressure is compared to ambient pressure to get the pressure of just the "weight" of the liquid. The hydro-static pressure of liquid is known given its density (specific gravity) and the height of the liquid column. So since we know the density of water or wort, through a calculation we can determine the height of the liquid column from the pressure. More math determines the volume of the liquid from the height, because the diameter of the kettle is known (and fixed).
So inside the hose (it's really a small tube) is really just air. A small amount of the kettle liquid might begin to enter the tube but it has no place to go as the air gets pressurized against the "dead end" of the sensor. Make sense?
I can understand your math calculations, the main doubt is how the pressure measuring port looks like and how it's attached to the tube, etc. I cant really see it in your picture.
Besides that, i thought that liquid was going to fill the tube. For the liquid doesn't get inside it, you must fill the kettle fast enough so the level of the liquid exceed the top of the tubing role. What is the diameter of the tube? What is the flowrate that you use when sparging?
The main problem in find in my new project is a reliable way to mensure level in all kettles, one that can be used with hard tubing, CIP, boiling worth, etc, and you gave me some inspiration!
Thanks!
OP
OP
The sensor has a barb fitting on it, and the tube slides over it.
The liquid won't move much into the tube, but the 90 degree elbow fitting ensures the tube turns vertical for its initial section. This keeps liquid drops from going down to the sensor, which it cannot tolerate. Like an air gap.
You don't need to fill the kettle at any particular speed. Liquid has no place to go given the vertical takeoff and the closed end of the tube at the sensor. I don't recall the tubing ID but it's something like 1/8".
Sparge rate has no bearing on this sensor system, but to answer your question, I sparge at ~1 qt/min.
The liquid won't move much into the tube, but the 90 degree elbow fitting ensures the tube turns vertical for its initial section. This keeps liquid drops from going down to the sensor, which it cannot tolerate. Like an air gap.
You don't need to fill the kettle at any particular speed. Liquid has no place to go given the vertical takeoff and the closed end of the tube at the sensor. I don't recall the tubing ID but it's something like 1/8".
Sparge rate has no bearing on this sensor system, but to answer your question, I sparge at ~1 qt/min.
This is the secret! Thank you so much. I will try do it myself!
If it's not asking you so much, would you mind sharing a more detailed math calculations you do for your rig? Anyways, I can search it myself but would be a nice point of start for me!
Thanks!
Super old post, sorry to bubble it up again. I read through some pages but couldn't find any details on your air pressure sensor setup.
I currently run eHERMS with BCS in bottom drain Keggles but I didn't bother with a sight glass. I'd like to skip that altogether but would like to introduce some type of volume measurements and your setup looks great... As I already have a T on the bottom of each of my keggles I'm invisioning swapping those out with a cross and putting a pressure sensor on the top part.
Do you have a parts list for the sensor components on your setup? Would the barometric pressure sensors on adafruit work?
Thanks and awesome setup!
I currently run eHERMS with BCS in bottom drain Keggles but I didn't bother with a sight glass. I'd like to skip that altogether but would like to introduce some type of volume measurements and your setup looks great... As I already have a T on the bottom of each of my keggles I'm invisioning swapping those out with a cross and putting a pressure sensor on the top part.
Do you have a parts list for the sensor components on your setup? Would the barometric pressure sensors on adafruit work?
Thanks and awesome setup!
