Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

rickyrich · Jan 6, 2016

Did anyone convert the hop shot to pellet amount in ounces? What hop do you recommend? Sorry! Over 300 pages and didn't go through every single one.

I've heard a lot of hop extract is made from Columbus/Amarillo.

Thanks!

m00ps · Jan 6, 2016

Bamsdealer said:
My next heady will be w a new yeast. It's shipped in a can and called Barbarian. Claims to have 200 billion cells as well. Got a starter going last night and it was ripping this morning.

That strain is clearly Conan, just their "clever" way of letting you know

Bamsdealer · Jan 9, 2016

Maybe similar, but not the real thing. Too flocculant. Haven't brewed yet, but the starter yeast cleared within a day after finishing. The real stuff i harvested from a can took a while to clear when doing starters.

lzrdkng14 · Jan 9, 2016

I brewed a batch yesterday using the farmhouse kit with some modifications. Basically a mix between the pg1 recipe (which the kit is based off) and the bobbrews one. I also used omega yeast mixed with the yeast I pulled from my last topper batch. Got some nice activity in the ferm 24 hours in.

I'll post the full recipe later...

EyePeeA · Jan 10, 2016

1fast636 said:
So basically 10 day fermentation, with a big 4 day dry hop, then cold conditioned for 14 days,and they are canning on day 28 last day of the 14 day cold condition.

I know we previously heard 28 days grain-to-glass. However, in Chop & Brew Episode 22, it was stated that it takes 24-25 days to Can. Kimmich then suggests "to drink Heady Topper 3-4 days later, which would be about 28 days... or better yet, to wait 1-2 weeks before drinking for best flavor."

For the homebrewing scale, what do you guys think about this schedule:

10 day fermentation (63-64F at first, then ramp up to 68-70F on day 7).
4-5 day, massive single-stage dryhop in primary at 68-70F.
Rack to secondary and 10 day cold condition in the secondary at roughly 39F (basically refrigeration).
Force carb and drink 3-4 days later, or bottle and drink 1.5 to 2 weeks after priming.

You could choose to dryhop in the secondary if you don't have space in the primary, but you would have to remove the dryhops after 4-5 days. For some homebrewers, it can be too much trouble to remove that volume of secondary dryhops through the narrow neck of a carboy... and additional trouble if they are not utilizing C02 to flush.

bobbrews · Jan 10, 2016

duplicate

bobbrews · Jan 10, 2016

reddskinnfan said:
My recipe (use search) is as close as it gets.

___________________________________

roncruiser said:
I've compiled reddskinnfan's recipe and notes into the following:

reddskinnfan recipe

Grains:
8 oz - Rice Hulls
23 lb - Optic Malt
3 lb - Flaked Wheat
1 lb - CaraRed
1 lb - Corn Sugar

Note: Mash-In - 10.25g @ 148F for 75m, then drain.
Sparge - 6.5g @ 168F for 10m, then drain.
Sparge pH - 5.5
Mash pH - 5.4

12.7g pre-boil volume.
----------------------------------------------------------

Boil time: 60 minutes.
Hops:
20 ml - Apollo HopShot @ 60m
3 oz - Simcoe @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Citra @ 40m (steep)
1.5 oz - Mosaic @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Chinook @ 40m (steep)
1.0 oz - Summit @ 40m (steep)

Note: All steep hops added at flameout, then pot covered and naturally cooled for 40m before running through chiller, or
Whirlpool hops added 5 minutes after flameout. I let naturally drop to 165F and kept there for 30.
(Improvements - splitting flameout for a little more aroma kick. One right at flameout and another 30 mins in.)

11.2g post-boil volume.
----------------------------------------------------------

10.5g into fermenter.
3L starter - Vermont IPA (GigaYeast)
Note: 3L starter was stepped. 2L fermented/decanted and then 3L fermented/decanted.
Fermentation at started at 66F. Raised to 72 after gravity dropped to about 1.020 to help it finish.

OG @ 1.072
FG @ 1.010

Dry hop will be:

3 oz Simcoe
1.5 oz Centennial
1.5 oz Chinook
1.0 oz Columbus
1.0 oz Comet

Note: Dry hop was half at beginning and half at day 4. Total 7 days.
I dry hopped in the serving kegs at room temp (around 70F in my house) with dry hop tubes from www.stainlessbrewing.com.

Final volume 10g.
----------------------------------------------------------

Water Profile:

75 ppm - Calcium
10 ppm - Magnesium
24 ppm - Sodium
113 ppm - Sulfate (Improvements: Increase 200-250)
44 ppm - Chloride
0 ppm - Bicarbonate
----------------------------------------------------------

Misc Notes:
And my final IBU/Color/ABV:
Calculated IBU - 140
SRM - 7
Measured ABV - 8.2%
----------------------------------------------------------

Tasting - Piney grapefruit with some peach notes. I had the pleasure of trying heady, with mine, right after each other.
The only big difference I saw was perceived bitterness, which I attribute to a little bit low on Sulfate.

This is not as close as it gets... I can tell you that much.

1) Totally wrong grain bill, as proven by Kimmich himself.
2) Mash pH is too high; needs to be 5.1 - 5.3 at the absolute most. Lower than this range is better than higher. Go higher than 5.3 and you failed. Yours was 5.4.
3) No Citra in the recipe (proven).
4) Dryhop is a max 4-5 days.
5) Water knowledge/treatment seems shoddy. No total alkalinity or hardness listed.
6) Even so, the hardness and sulfate are far too low.

Not sure why you made such a bold statement about your clone being the most accurate when you have never even tried Heady Topper. It's super misleading to the guys trying to clone this beer.

Asta said:
Don't want to be a d---weed but didn't redskinfan post that he had never tried Heady? I'm sure he makes a great DIPA, but I'm just saying . . .

reddskinnfan said:
Don't wanna be a d*ckweed, then don't be one... Troll...

I had never tried Heady when I originally built this recipe. At the time I was going off a lot of different sources of information.

I did, however, get to try it after my recipe was ready. In fact, I had two six packs of the elusive beast. Hell, I even gave away a couple to a good friend, along with a growler of mine.

geoffey said:
It comes in 4 packs. Someone must have pulled a fast one on you.

chisena said:
Classic. Busted!

lzrdkng14 · Jan 10, 2016

Bobbrews, packers fan? ;-)

ianmatth · Jan 11, 2016

bobbrews said:
Mash pH is too high; needs to be 5.1 - 5.3 at the absolute most. Lower than this range is better than higher. Go higher than 5.3 and you failed. Yours was 5.4.

Maybe his was 5.4 at room temperature, which should be ~5.1 at 150*. Then again maybe not. My pH meter doesn't work above 60* C so I cool a little of my mash and measure at room temperature.

ianmatth · Jan 11, 2016

Anybody got a good email relationship with John? I've heard some people say he will answer specific questions about the Heady Topper brewing process through email. I still have two things I'd like to find out.

1. What is the yeast pitching rate in million cell / ml / degree plato?
2. What is the dry hop temperature?

g-star · Jan 12, 2016

Agree with bobbrews....the grain bill is totally off (too much crystal, TF Pearl is the base malt), and he is clueless on the water chemistry. HT has been lab tested and the final beer should calculate to 750ppm hardness with much higher sulfates. It is clear they use a big gypsum addition at the Alchemist.

roncruiser · Jan 12, 2016

bobbrews said:
___________________________________

This is not as close as it gets... I can tell you that much.

1) Totally wrong grain bill, as proven by Kimmich himself.
2) Mash pH is too high; needs to be 5.1 - 5.3 at the absolute most. Lower than this range is better than higher. Go higher than 5.3 and you failed. Yours was 5.4.
3) No Citra in the recipe (proven).
4) Dryhop is a max 4-5 days.
5) Water knowledge/treatment seems shoddy. No total alkalinity or hardness listed.
6) Even so, the hardness and sulfate are far too low.

Not sure why you made such a bold statement about your clone being the most accurate when you have never even tried Heady Topper. It's super misleading to the guys trying to clone this beer.

There you are. Hang out in this thread a bit more. We're, obviously, desperate for something remotely close to the real thing.

bobbrews · Jan 12, 2016

In case anyone is wondering...

--Yakima Valley is the best buy for the pellet hops, lactic acid, hopshot, and gypsum right now at <$40.

--Farmhouse Brewing is offering the appropriate amount of Fawcett Pearl, Fawcett Caramalt, and White Wheat (CMC) for about $32. Unfortunately, it's not Fawcett Wheat.

--Morebeer.com is the best local spot if you are on the East Coast for Gigayeast Vermont IPA yeast at $8.99... but shipping is a killer for a total of $16. For prices in your area, call Gigayeast and say you are a homebrewer who is looking for local retailers.

You still need turbinado sugar and any equipment, including a pH meter, other water treatments, kettles, etc.

So yeah... $80+ to brew 5-6g of this beer for the ingredients alone... It's no wonder why so few have attempted it.

Here is my last attempt... keep the mash pH at 5.1-5.3, hardness at 750 mg/L with gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 4-5 days
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 4-5 days
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 4-5 days

Feel free to adjust the hop schedule slightly. More Simcoe is always welcome at the expense of less Centennial and Columbus. The Comet & Apollo really do a toll on the dank front. Perhaps up it to 16ml HopShot? And dryhop at 7 oz. instead of my 5.75 oz.

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week. Conan gets weird in the high 60s.

ianmatth · Jan 12, 2016

I see the massive initial dry hop. From my experience that is definitely what this clone needs - amongst all the other things. So how close is it? I'm still thinking we need a second dry hop of ~3 oz for our homebrew techniques. Either that or maybe we aren't dry hopping at the right temperature.

bobbrews · Jan 12, 2016

You don't want to dryhop at 30-50 F for homebrewed IPAs. This results in less oil release over 4-5 days...which means less aroma.

I have always dryhopped in the high 60s and have experienced outstanding results. That is not to say I am right. But it does seem to align more with common sense for an American IIPA.

That being said, I think dryhop temps are one of the last things to worry about when cloning this beer. Focus more on water chemistry, hop amount and placement, mash temp, accuracy of ingredients, quality of ingredients, overall brewing technique and attention to detail.

At this point to be honest, I favor a massive overkill of a single stage dryhop so you can keg/bottle it sooner vs. a smaller dual or triple stage dryhop. Less time wasted and more aroma trapped in the beer.

moreb33rplz · Jan 12, 2016

bobbrews said:
In case anyone is wondering...

--Yakima Valley is the best buy for the pellet hops, lactic acid, hopshot, and gypsum right now at <$40.

--Farmhouse Brewing is offering the appropriate amount of Fawcett Pearl, Fawcett Caramalt, and White Wheat (CMC) for about $32. Unfortunately, it's not Fawcett Wheat.

--Morebeer.com is the best local spot if you are on the East Coast for Gigayeast Vermont IPA yeast at $8.99... but shipping is a killer for a total of $16. For prices in your area, call Gigayeast and say you are a homebrewer who is looking for local retailers.

You still need turbinado sugar and any equipment, including a pH meter, other water treatments, kettles, etc.

So yeah... $80+ to brew 5-6g of this beer for the ingredients alone... It's no wonder why so few have attempted it.

Here is my last attempt... keep the mash pH at 5.1-5.3, hardness at 750 mg/L with gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride:

1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary

12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 4-5 days
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 4-5 days
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 4-5 days

Feel free to adjust the hop schedule slightly. More Simcoe is always welcome at the expense of less Centennial and Columbus. The Comet & Apollo really do a toll on the dank front. Perhaps up it to 16ml HopShot? And dryhop at 7 oz. instead of my 5.75 oz.

Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week. Conan gets weird in the high 60s.

This is probably buried in the thread, but what is your source for the 5.1-5.3 mash pH? Isn't that way lower than usual?

bobbrews · Jan 12, 2016

moreb33rplz said:
This is probably buried in the thread, but what is your source for the 5.1-5.3 mash pH? Isn't that way lower than usual?

Chop and brew episode 22 explains, from John Kimmich's own mouth, that 5.4ph is too high of a mash ph. And it's really not way lower than usual.

geoffey · Jan 12, 2016

bobbrews said:
Chop and brew episode 22 explains, from John Kimmich's own mouth, that 5.4ph is too high of a mash ph. And it's really not way lower than usual.

Correct. Keep in mind this reference is at room temp, not mash temp. Really it's just the lower end of the generally accepted PH mash range.

Quick water chemistry question: should one be adding all the gypsum to the mash water? Add to the mash and sparge water? Or do a gypsum addition during the boil? Consensus on the chemistry seems to be a large gypsum addition, but curious on thoughts of when that goes in.

lzrdkng14 · Jan 12, 2016

Check farmhouse for the kit. Not exactly like your recipe but you can add hops to it you get it close for not too much $... it helps to get everything at one place to save on shipping cost.

EyePeeA · Jan 12, 2016

geoffey said:
Correct. Keep in mind this reference is at room temp, not mash temp. Really it's just the lower end of the generally accepted PH mash range.

Quick water chemistry question: should one be adding all the gypsum to the mash water? Add to the mash and sparge water? Or do a gypsum addition during the boil? Consensus on the chemistry seems to be a large gypsum addition, but curious on thoughts of when that goes in.

In that video, Kimmich seems to suggest that 5.1-5.3 is the pH at mash temp - likely 148-149F.

I treat all water. If you're not, then you're diluting the rest when you combine. The main focus though is the mash.

lzrdkng14 · Jan 12, 2016

geoffey said:
Correct. Keep in mind this reference is at room temp, not mash temp. Really it's just the lower end of the generally accepted PH mash range.

Quick water chemistry question: should one be adding all the gypsum to the mash water? Add to the mash and sparge water? Or do a gypsum addition during the boil? Consensus on the chemistry seems to be a large gypsum addition, but curious on thoughts of when that goes in.

I added a pound of gypsum to my cold water before getting it up to mash temp. I used about 8 gallons of water. This was last week so I haven't been able to taste the result yet.

No idea if this is the right way or not, I just rolled with it.

jammin · Jan 12, 2016

lzrdkng14 said:
I added a pound of gypsum to my cold water before getting it up to mash temp. I used about 8 gallons of water. This was last week so I haven't been able to taste the result yet.

No idea if this is the right way or not, I just rolled with it.

you added an entire pound of gypsum to 8 gallons of water for your mash?

reddskinnfan · Jan 12, 2016

bobbrews said:
___________________________________

This is not as close as it gets... I can tell you that much.

1) Totally wrong grain bill, as proven by Kimmich himself.
2) Mash pH is too high; needs to be 5.1 - 5.3 at the absolute most. Lower than this range is better than higher. Go higher than 5.3 and you failed. Yours was 5.4.
3) No Citra in the recipe (proven).
4) Dryhop is a max 4-5 days.
5) Water knowledge/treatment seems shoddy. No total alkalinity or hardness listed.
6) Even so, the hardness and sulfate are far too low.

Not sure why you made such a bold statement about your clone being the most accurate when you have never even tried Heady Topper. It's super misleading to the guys trying to clone this beer.

I like bold statements. I also think that my recipe is pretty close. Not sure why you think that my perception of the beer isn't close to my perception of Heady.

As stated, I've had it now.

I based my recipe of similar grain that I had available Optic for Pearl, etc. My color and IBU were, IMHO, close. While my hardness and sulfate weren't as high as I would have liked, based on further reading about this beer, I believe my hop selection was representative of the beer, and so did the others who tasted it.

Now, on to the apparent flaming that I've gotten. Your brew isn't the only one people should attempt. My system is different from yours, and my taste buds are different. I was bold in my statement, because I believe I was close. You, clearly, didn't clone it either, brah, and you've been trying longer than I...

Now, go play WoW and check back on the thread again in 6 months or so.

lzrdkng14 · Jan 12, 2016

jammin said:
you added an entire pound of gypsum to 8 gallons of water for your mash?

Well, not a whole pound. Maybe 3/4....

And a lot of it was at the bottom of my fill bucket and the bottom of the kettle (under the ball valve level)...

Is this bad?

lzrdkng14 · Jan 12, 2016

lzrdkng14 said:
Well, not a whole pound. Maybe 3/4....

And a lot of it was at the bottom of my fill bucket and the bottom of the kettle (under the ball valve level)...

Is this bad?

Well I definitely over did it. I hope it didn't totally kill this batch. I read that the water hardness needed to be through the roof, but this is way over kill. We'll see...

Here it is after 4 days in primary...

View attachment 1452652678033.jpg

Calichusetts · Jan 12, 2016

Edit- A pound might be overkill. But remember, there is only so much hardness a water profile can hold.

sdenue57 · Jan 12, 2016

lzrdkng14 said:
Well I definitely over did it. I hope it didn't totally kill this batch. I read that the water hardness needed to be through the roof, but this is way over kill. We'll see...

Here it is after 4 days in primary...

I sure hope that works out for you. It's such an expensive beer to brew. I brewed a "Lite" version of this, due to only being able to mash about 12 Lbs of grain in my 5 Gal cooler(should've gone bigger). Same Hop profile though. Came out delicious! One thing I won't do again though, don't squeeze the dry hop bag before bottling! Every bottle had about a 1/8 to 3/16" layer of sediment on the bottom. Brew and learn, lol.

lzrdkng14 · Jan 13, 2016

Calichusetts said:
Edit- A pound might be overkill. But remember, there is only so much hardness a water profile can hold.

Yes, that is why there was so much "gypsum sludge" at the bottom of my water bucket and kettle. I would estimate only 1/2 or less of the gypsum was actually absorbed.

g-star · Jan 13, 2016

lzrdkng14 said:
Well, not a whole pound. Maybe 3/4....

And a lot of it was at the bottom of my fill bucket and the bottom of the kettle (under the ball valve level)...

Is this bad?

WOW! You added at least 20x the amount of gypsum for what would be considered really pushing the limits. This much Ca2+ in solution likely drove you mash pH into the low 4's. Not likely to turn out very well.

Read a bit on water chemistry and buy a gram scale. 25g of gypsum (1/20th lb) is about as much as you would ever add to a 5 gallon batch.

dstar26t · Jan 13, 2016

Has anyone actually reported seeing simple sugar at the brewery? Turbinado keeps making it's way into these recipes...just wondering why. I get ~82% ADF for this recipe sans sugar.

Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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