I picked up a pH meter to check my mash, and I regularly hit 5.4 - 5.6. Perhaps I'm already at a good water profile and it makes me complacent 
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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I picked up a pH meter to check my mash, and I regularly hit 5.4 - 5.6. Perhaps I'm already at a good water profile and it makes me complacent
What about hardness? What about calcium? The Alchemist adds a lot of gypsum to Heady Topper so if you want to clone it I would advise adding an appropriate amount of gypsum to match their numbers.
Maybe you should try it first before offering an uneducated opinion.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Is it best to add gypsum to the mash, kettle (post-mash), post-ferment?
When I have used high amounts of gypsum (not as high as we are talking here) I would add to mash and sparge to get my pH where I wanted, and then add the rest directly to boil kettle after wort was collected.
In general, people are using at least a portion of the gypsum in mash/sparge for pH purposes.
there's no need to be rude. I didn't say anything definitive. these boards are for polite discussion, not for insults. this thread seems to attract more negativity than most, unfortunately
Minerals can be added to the finished beer and make a difference. If you want to do a quick and dirty experiment on 1 portion of a hoppy homebrew, without committing to changing the whole batch, add a pinch of gypsum and see if you notice a difference. Then add a bit more and try again.
I think at this point people are hoping for objective information instead of subjective information. Part of the reason this thread is so helpful is because people offer their input but it also one of the reasons it is so long and also why most questions has been discussed 2-3X without substantial answers.
rideincircles
Well-Known Member
Some notes from my current batch.
I split my batch in 2 with about 9 gallons from the boil at 1.092 OG (boiled off way more than intended). I let it ferment for a week with no disruptions then started the first stage dry hop in 2 batches. Batch A had about 4 gallons, the other about 5. Both got 3 oz of hops each in the first dry hop and both had 7 ounces at flame out.
Batch A was super fruity with lots of simcoe, el dorado, citra, mosaic, ahtanum, and a few others.
Batch B was more standard to the recipe and more dank overall with apollo, comet, simcoe, chinook and a few others with a dose of citra.
The 1st dry hop ended up being about a week and I was too busy over the holidays to rack to secondary, so I just added the 2nd round of hops to the primary. Batch A got 2 oz since it was smaller and batch B got 3 ounces.
I cold crashed after 2.5 days dryhopping and kegged Batch A on friday, then Batch B on sunday (3 weeks total from brewday). Batch A finished at 1.016, Batch B was 1.018. It does have a noticeable sweetness on batch B, but not detrimental enough to affect much. I may have underpitched with my gigayeast since I had way higher gravity than intended. It may be a ding for competition though.
Batch A was kegged at 30 psi for a day before I had my grillout, and I couldn't stop my friends from drinking it. It was about 10% and is like hop juice. I used 20ml of hopshot for the 90 minute boil and I would say this is the absolute minimum of acceptable level for bitterness. I would probably bump it up next time, but I like it really well as is. I did not do enough to the water chemistry to boost this aspect enough since all I added was 3.5 g CaCl and 4g gypsum to 7 gallons of mash water for 25.6 lbs of grain.
As of now, it is not even fully carbed yet, but Batch a is down at least a gallon and a half after my party. I will probably go to the homebrew club meeting and bring some later to see what the concensus is. As of now, it is hoppy on another level compared to what else I have done so far. Will save a few bottles for bluebonnet to see how it fares there.
Will chime back in later after it matures under co2. Still not sure which one I like better yet, Batch a is incredibly fruity. Batch B is much more dank, but super graperuit flavored. They are still early, but they won't have any issues getting consumed.
Also, the heady yeast I harvested from the can I drank out of was never used, but sat in a beaker in my fridge for a month before some weird fuzzy bacteria started growing in the wort. I tossed it. I harvested some yeast from my original gigayeast starter to keep going for my next one.
Still need to keg my all citra partigyle in the next day or 2, it has been cold crashed for a few days, but is now past the 2 week mark on the dry hops, and I have had issues with grassyness when hops are left on too long. Hoping the cold crash reduces this for now.
I split my batch in 2 with about 9 gallons from the boil at 1.092 OG (boiled off way more than intended). I let it ferment for a week with no disruptions then started the first stage dry hop in 2 batches. Batch A had about 4 gallons, the other about 5. Both got 3 oz of hops each in the first dry hop and both had 7 ounces at flame out.
Batch A was super fruity with lots of simcoe, el dorado, citra, mosaic, ahtanum, and a few others.
Batch B was more standard to the recipe and more dank overall with apollo, comet, simcoe, chinook and a few others with a dose of citra.
The 1st dry hop ended up being about a week and I was too busy over the holidays to rack to secondary, so I just added the 2nd round of hops to the primary. Batch A got 2 oz since it was smaller and batch B got 3 ounces.
I cold crashed after 2.5 days dryhopping and kegged Batch A on friday, then Batch B on sunday (3 weeks total from brewday). Batch A finished at 1.016, Batch B was 1.018. It does have a noticeable sweetness on batch B, but not detrimental enough to affect much. I may have underpitched with my gigayeast since I had way higher gravity than intended. It may be a ding for competition though.
Batch A was kegged at 30 psi for a day before I had my grillout, and I couldn't stop my friends from drinking it. It was about 10% and is like hop juice. I used 20ml of hopshot for the 90 minute boil and I would say this is the absolute minimum of acceptable level for bitterness. I would probably bump it up next time, but I like it really well as is. I did not do enough to the water chemistry to boost this aspect enough since all I added was 3.5 g CaCl and 4g gypsum to 7 gallons of mash water for 25.6 lbs of grain.
As of now, it is not even fully carbed yet, but Batch a is down at least a gallon and a half after my party. I will probably go to the homebrew club meeting and bring some later to see what the concensus is. As of now, it is hoppy on another level compared to what else I have done so far. Will save a few bottles for bluebonnet to see how it fares there.
Will chime back in later after it matures under co2. Still not sure which one I like better yet, Batch a is incredibly fruity. Batch B is much more dank, but super graperuit flavored. They are still early, but they won't have any issues getting consumed.
Also, the heady yeast I harvested from the can I drank out of was never used, but sat in a beaker in my fridge for a month before some weird fuzzy bacteria started growing in the wort. I tossed it. I harvested some yeast from my original gigayeast starter to keep going for my next one.
Still need to keg my all citra partigyle in the next day or 2, it has been cold crashed for a few days, but is now past the 2 week mark on the dry hops, and I have had issues with grassyness when hops are left on too long. Hoping the cold crash reduces this for now.
Bamsdealer
Well-Known Member
My next heady will be w a new yeast. It's shipped in a can and called Barbarian. Claims to have 200 billion cells as well. Got a starter going last night and it was ripping this morning.
Did anyone convert the hop shot to pellet amount in ounces? What hop do you recommend? Sorry! Over 300 pages and didn't go through every single one.
I've heard a lot of hop extract is made from Columbus/Amarillo.
Thanks!
I've heard a lot of hop extract is made from Columbus/Amarillo.
Thanks!
That strain is clearly Conan, just their "clever" way of letting you know
Bamsdealer
Well-Known Member
Maybe similar, but not the real thing. Too flocculant. Haven't brewed yet, but the starter yeast cleared within a day after finishing. The real stuff i harvested from a can took a while to clear when doing starters.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
I brewed a batch yesterday using the farmhouse kit with some modifications. Basically a mix between the pg1 recipe (which the kit is based off) and the bobbrews one. I also used omega yeast mixed with the yeast I pulled from my last topper batch. Got some nice activity in the ferm 24 hours in.
I'll post the full recipe later...
I'll post the full recipe later...
I know we previously heard 28 days grain-to-glass. However, in Chop & Brew Episode 22, it was stated that it takes 24-25 days to Can. Kimmich then suggests "to drink Heady Topper 3-4 days later, which would be about 28 days... or better yet, to wait 1-2 weeks before drinking for best flavor."
For the homebrewing scale, what do you guys think about this schedule:
- 10 day fermentation (63-64F at first, then ramp up to 68-70F on day 7).
- 4-5 day, massive single-stage dryhop in primary at 68-70F.
- Rack to secondary and 10 day cold condition in the secondary at roughly 39F (basically refrigeration).
- Force carb and drink 3-4 days later, or bottle and drink 1.5 to 2 weeks after priming.
You could choose to dryhop in the secondary if you don't have space in the primary, but you would have to remove the dryhops after 4-5 days. For some homebrewers, it can be too much trouble to remove that volume of secondary dryhops through the narrow neck of a carboy... and additional trouble if they are not utilizing C02 to flush.
___________________________________
This is not as close as it gets... I can tell you that much.
1) Totally wrong grain bill, as proven by Kimmich himself.
2) Mash pH is too high; needs to be 5.1 - 5.3 at the absolute most. Lower than this range is better than higher. Go higher than 5.3 and you failed. Yours was 5.4.
3) No Citra in the recipe (proven).
4) Dryhop is a max 4-5 days.
5) Water knowledge/treatment seems shoddy. No total alkalinity or hardness listed.
6) Even so, the hardness and sulfate are far too low.
Not sure why you made such a bold statement about your clone being the most accurate when you have never even tried Heady Topper. It's super misleading to the guys trying to clone this beer.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
Bobbrews, packers fan? ;-)
Maybe his was 5.4 at room temperature, which should be ~5.1 at 150*. Then again maybe not. My pH meter doesn't work above 60* C so I cool a little of my mash and measure at room temperature.
Anybody got a good email relationship with John? I've heard some people say he will answer specific questions about the Heady Topper brewing process through email. I still have two things I'd like to find out.
1. What is the yeast pitching rate in million cell / ml / degree plato?
2. What is the dry hop temperature?
1. What is the yeast pitching rate in million cell / ml / degree plato?
2. What is the dry hop temperature?
Agree with bobbrews....the grain bill is totally off (too much crystal, TF Pearl is the base malt), and he is clueless on the water chemistry. HT has been lab tested and the final beer should calculate to 750ppm hardness with much higher sulfates. It is clear they use a big gypsum addition at the Alchemist.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
There you are. Hang out in this thread a bit more. We're, obviously, desperate for something remotely close to the real thing.
In case anyone is wondering...
--Yakima Valley is the best buy for the pellet hops, lactic acid, hopshot, and gypsum right now at <$40.
--Farmhouse Brewing is offering the appropriate amount of Fawcett Pearl, Fawcett Caramalt, and White Wheat (CMC) for about $32. Unfortunately, it's not Fawcett Wheat.
--Morebeer.com is the best local spot if you are on the East Coast for Gigayeast Vermont IPA yeast at $8.99... but shipping is a killer for a total of $16. For prices in your area, call Gigayeast and say you are a homebrewer who is looking for local retailers.
You still need turbinado sugar and any equipment, including a pH meter, other water treatments, kettles, etc.
So yeah... $80+ to brew 5-6g of this beer for the ingredients alone... It's no wonder why so few have attempted it.
Here is my last attempt... keep the mash pH at 5.1-5.3, hardness at 750 mg/L with gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride:
1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary
12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt
14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 4-5 days
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 4-5 days
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 4-5 days
Feel free to adjust the hop schedule slightly. More Simcoe is always welcome at the expense of less Centennial and Columbus. The Comet & Apollo really do a toll on the dank front. Perhaps up it to 16ml HopShot? And dryhop at 7 oz. instead of my 5.75 oz.
Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week. Conan gets weird in the high 60s.
--Yakima Valley is the best buy for the pellet hops, lactic acid, hopshot, and gypsum right now at <$40.
--Farmhouse Brewing is offering the appropriate amount of Fawcett Pearl, Fawcett Caramalt, and White Wheat (CMC) for about $32. Unfortunately, it's not Fawcett Wheat.
--Morebeer.com is the best local spot if you are on the East Coast for Gigayeast Vermont IPA yeast at $8.99... but shipping is a killer for a total of $16. For prices in your area, call Gigayeast and say you are a homebrewer who is looking for local retailers.
You still need turbinado sugar and any equipment, including a pH meter, other water treatments, kettles, etc.
So yeah... $80+ to brew 5-6g of this beer for the ingredients alone... It's no wonder why so few have attempted it.
Here is my last attempt... keep the mash pH at 5.1-5.3, hardness at 750 mg/L with gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride:
1.073/1.074 OG
1.010/1.011 FG
7.5 gallon boil
5.5 gallon batch, collected in primary
12lbs, 84.2% Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
12oz, 5.30% Turbinado Sugar
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Wheat
12oz, 5.30% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt
14 ml HopShot @ 90 Minutes
2.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.00 oz. Centennial pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Columbus pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Comet pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 180 F Whirlpool
1.50 oz. Simcoe pellets @ 4-5 days
1.50 oz. Centennial pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Columbus pellets @ 4-5 days
1.00 oz. Comet pellets @ 4-5 days
0.75 oz. Apollo pellets @ 4-5 days
Feel free to adjust the hop schedule slightly. More Simcoe is always welcome at the expense of less Centennial and Columbus. The Comet & Apollo really do a toll on the dank front. Perhaps up it to 16ml HopShot? And dryhop at 7 oz. instead of my 5.75 oz.
Conan @ 63 F, then after ferm slows down drastically or completes, rack to secondary and ramp up to 68-70 F. Be wary of ambient temperatures. You don't want the wort in the primary going over say 64 F for the first week. Conan gets weird in the high 60s.
I see the massive initial dry hop. From my experience that is definitely what this clone needs - amongst all the other things. So how close is it? I'm still thinking we need a second dry hop of ~3 oz for our homebrew techniques. Either that or maybe we aren't dry hopping at the right temperature.
You don't want to dryhop at 30-50 F for homebrewed IPAs. This results in less oil release over 4-5 days...which means less aroma.
I have always dryhopped in the high 60s and have experienced outstanding results. That is not to say I am right. But it does seem to align more with common sense for an American IIPA.
That being said, I think dryhop temps are one of the last things to worry about when cloning this beer. Focus more on water chemistry, hop amount and placement, mash temp, accuracy of ingredients, quality of ingredients, overall brewing technique and attention to detail.
At this point to be honest, I favor a massive overkill of a single stage dryhop so you can keg/bottle it sooner vs. a smaller dual or triple stage dryhop. Less time wasted and more aroma trapped in the beer.
I have always dryhopped in the high 60s and have experienced outstanding results. That is not to say I am right. But it does seem to align more with common sense for an American IIPA.
That being said, I think dryhop temps are one of the last things to worry about when cloning this beer. Focus more on water chemistry, hop amount and placement, mash temp, accuracy of ingredients, quality of ingredients, overall brewing technique and attention to detail.
At this point to be honest, I favor a massive overkill of a single stage dryhop so you can keg/bottle it sooner vs. a smaller dual or triple stage dryhop. Less time wasted and more aroma trapped in the beer.
moreb33rplz
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This is probably buried in the thread, but what is your source for the 5.1-5.3 mash pH? Isn't that way lower than usual?
Chop and brew episode 22 explains, from John Kimmich's own mouth, that 5.4ph is too high of a mash ph. And it's really not way lower than usual.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Correct. Keep in mind this reference is at room temp, not mash temp. Really it's just the lower end of the generally accepted PH mash range.
Quick water chemistry question: should one be adding all the gypsum to the mash water? Add to the mash and sparge water? Or do a gypsum addition during the boil? Consensus on the chemistry seems to be a large gypsum addition, but curious on thoughts of when that goes in.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
Check farmhouse for the kit. Not exactly like your recipe but you can add hops to it you get it close for not too much $... it helps to get everything at one place to save on shipping cost.
In that video, Kimmich seems to suggest that 5.1-5.3 is the pH at mash temp - likely 148-149F.
I treat all water. If you're not, then you're diluting the rest when you combine. The main focus though is the mash.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
I added a pound of gypsum to my cold water before getting it up to mash temp. I used about 8 gallons of water. This was last week so I haven't been able to taste the result yet.
No idea if this is the right way or not, I just rolled with it.
you added an entire pound of gypsum to 8 gallons of water for your mash?
reddskinnfan
Well-Known Member
I like bold statements. I also think that my recipe is pretty close. Not sure why you think that my perception of the beer isn't close to my perception of Heady.
As stated, I've had it now.
I based my recipe of similar grain that I had available Optic for Pearl, etc. My color and IBU were, IMHO, close. While my hardness and sulfate weren't as high as I would have liked, based on further reading about this beer, I believe my hop selection was representative of the beer, and so did the others who tasted it.
Now, on to the apparent flaming that I've gotten. Your brew isn't the only one people should attempt. My system is different from yours, and my taste buds are different. I was bold in my statement, because I believe I was close. You, clearly, didn't clone it either, brah, and you've been trying longer than I...
Now, go play WoW and check back on the thread again in 6 months or so.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
Well, not a whole pound. Maybe 3/4....
And a lot of it was at the bottom of my fill bucket and the bottom of the kettle (under the ball valve level)...
Is this bad?
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
Well I definitely over did it. I hope it didn't totally kill this batch. I read that the water hardness needed to be through the roof, but this is way over kill. We'll see...
Here it is after 4 days in primary...
View attachment 1452652678033.jpg
Calichusetts
Well-Known Member
Edit- A pound might be overkill. But remember, there is only so much hardness a water profile can hold.
sdenue57
Well-Known Member
I sure hope that works out for you. It's such an expensive beer to brew. I brewed a "Lite" version of this, due to only being able to mash about 12 Lbs of grain in my 5 Gal cooler(should've gone bigger). Same Hop profile though. Came out delicious! One thing I won't do again though, don't squeeze the dry hop bag before bottling! Every bottle had about a 1/8 to 3/16" layer of sediment on the bottom. Brew and learn, lol.
lzrdkng14
Well-Known Member
Yes, that is why there was so much "gypsum sludge" at the bottom of my water bucket and kettle. I would estimate only 1/2 or less of the gypsum was actually absorbed.
WOW! You added at least 20x the amount of gypsum for what would be considered really pushing the limits. This much Ca2+ in solution likely drove you mash pH into the low 4's. Not likely to turn out very well.
Read a bit on water chemistry and buy a gram scale. 25g of gypsum (1/20th lb) is about as much as you would ever add to a 5 gallon batch.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Has anyone actually reported seeing simple sugar at the brewery? Turbinado keeps making it's way into these recipes...just wondering why. I get ~82% ADF for this recipe sans sugar.
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