Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

Williams 728
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Braufessor said:
1.014 is not terrible - especially for a beer in the gravity range of Heady. I don't think I would repitch any yeast. I agree that you could sneak a point or two dry hopping as sometimes the addition of the hops will rouse the yeast up again. I would say I consistently get 1.012 from Conan.... but I also consistently brew beers in the 1.045-1.055 range too. I also carry it out for many generations. No one can tell the difference between 1.012 and 1.014 as far as taste/mouthfeel.
If it were up in the 1.016-1.020 range... that is where it starts to get really sweet and "off."
Click to expand...

I second this statement.
My Conan stopped at .014 but started again very slowly after the first dry hop pitch. I watched the volcanic activity at the bottom daily. It was slow for 4 days. On day 4 I cold crashed it. It is now in the Keg carbed at 20 Psi with about 8 min of shaking / saturating with the keg at 40 Deg F. It is now sitting with the second hops in a hop fine mesh bag holding it down with a ss table spoon with dental floss suspending the bag. I will leave it there for 4 days at 70 Deg, shake again and put in the kegerator and sip it after a week. It is going to be interesting how my friends like it for the Holiday season. Some like Bitter Some don't. :mug:
 
Braufessor said:
I would. I double dry hop all my IPA's. first dose in primary around day 5-7. Then second dose in a dry hopping keg for a couple days before jumping to serving keg. I like the initial dry hop in the primary as it is finishing up.
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So, your beers are roughly 9-11 days old when you keg? Man, you're lucky... that is fast. IME mine have to sit for about 2 weeks total for them to be "conditioned" to go to keg.
 
BreezyBrew said:
So, your beers are roughly 9-11 days old when you keg? Man, you're lucky... that is fast. IME mine have to sit for about 2 weeks total for them to be "conditioned" to go to keg.
Click to expand...

Not my IPA's...... Some with no dry hopping are kegged and carbonating within 9-10 days. I would say this is my general IPA schedule (with double dry hop).

Day 1-6(ish) = Ferment
Day 5-7 range = add 2-3 ounces dry hop to primary, continue ferment.
Day 11 or 12 = cold crash @ 32 degrees (maybe gelatin, maybe not)
Day 13 or 14 = move to dry hopping keg (see link below), 2-3 ounces dry hop.
Day 15 or 16 = Jump to serving keg. Carbonate @20psi for a couple days and then back off CO2 to 12-14psi to finish carbonating.

Day 18-19-20 range..... drinking.

Dry hop keg procedure for second dry-hopping. Love this, can't recommend it highly enough.
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html
 
I have to back off a little because sometimes Racking to Lee's gave a little more than what was needed to a Diatomaceous Earth filter. It could plug up instantly. With Wine that is. :)
 
I racked my batch to the dry hopping keg last night. Getting excited to try this. I'm using that dry hop in the keg method that @Braufessor referenced. I got a racking cane filter and put that over the dip tube and I have an 18" dry hopping filter from Stainless Brewing. I tweaked the method one little bit by adding a silicone funnel turned upside down over the 18" dry hopping filter. That should hopefully keep any significant amount of hopes from getting down in between the dry hop filter and the dip tube filter.

Is it recommended to gently agitate the keg to get the hops to shift around a bit? I feel like whenever I dry hop, the hops just end up floating on the surface.
 
hezagenius said:
I got a racking cane filter and put that over the dip tube and I have an 18" dry hopping filter from Stainless Brewing. I tweaked the method one little bit by adding a silicone funnel turned upside down over the 18" dry hopping filter.
.
Click to expand...

I use a "tea strainer" over the dryhopper and it works well.

1610880_10153780058619657_3351358800356453472_n.jpg
 
hezagenius said:
I racked my batch to the dry hopping keg last night. Getting excited to try this. I'm using that dry hop in the keg method that @Braufessor referenced. I got a racking cane filter and put that over the dip tube and I have an 18" dry hopping filter from Stainless Brewing. I tweaked the method one little bit by adding a silicone funnel turned upside down over the 18" dry hopping filter. That should hopefully keep any significant amount of hopes from getting down in between the dry hop filter and the dip tube filter.

Is it recommended to gently agitate the keg to get the hops to shift around a bit? I feel like whenever I dry hop, the hops just end up floating on the surface.
Click to expand...

I don't...... I put them in the bottom of the keg, purge the keg with CO2, then transfer beer - which kind of mixes and stirs up the hops. When keg is full, I purge the head space, put a few pounds of pressure on it to seal lid....... and then I let it sit for 2 days. About 12 hours before I am going to jump it to another keg I do rock it a bit and set it up on top of my chest freezer which maybe lets some hops settle out. I like to place the keg high and jump to a keg on the floor as the gravity helps move the beer in addition to using CO2 pressure. I purge the serving keg, transfer out the dip tube of hopping keg, and down the dip tube of the serving keg. Again, purge head space at the end and seal lid, carbonate, etc.

Hope it works out well for you. It took me one or two trials to kind of get a process down I liked, but now it is just second nature.
 
I flushed with CO2, then racked, then added hops, then did a quadruple purge. I guess it makes more sense to add the hops first and then flush with CO2.

I think I've got it set to 12psi. Whatever I use for serving pressure. Maybe I'll dial that back tonight. Or maybe I'll burst carb it to help it get carbed quicker...hmmm. I've always wondered how burst carbing affects hop aroma. On one hand, you are speeding up the carb process to be able to enjoy a fresher product. But does the increased CO2 drive aroma out of the beer?

I had 2 kegs and the extra disconnects available and it seems like a good way to help limit O2 exposure so it's definitely worth trying. I did have to cut off about 1/4" from the diptube to make sure it had enough clearance with the diptube screen and the dry hop screen but that's OK. I don't mind if I lose a few ounces here and there.

Another nice thing about doing it this way is I think it will help filter large particles out of the beer. Normally I use a mesh bag on the outlet hose when I auto-siphon but I didn't bother this time. I figured the extra filters inside the dry hop keg should filter most of the large particles out when I transfer to the serving keg.
 
hezagenius said:
But does the increased CO2 drive aroma out of the beer?
Click to expand...

I don't have data or anything to back this up, but absolutely not. Unless you're going to release that CO2, everything is trapped in your keg. If anything, the increased pressure would keep the oils and aroma molecules safely inside your beer
 
Just to update all on the clone from Northern.
It is on tap and I can only equate a similarity to Sam Adams Rebel Rouser double.
However about 20% more hoppier.
I have also found that the grains I have been using from my HBS have a lot more moisture content than what Northern sent me. My first experience with dough balls was with the Northern. I will have to adjust a little more grain with my HBS.
This is a very nice beer.
I have a hard time finding the SA II Rouser at times here at around $8 per six pack.
 
Has anyone contacted John Kimmich about the water profile? I emailed him about his dry hop process and received a response within a few days.
 
Finally brewed mine on Saturday. Ended up boiling off way more than I intended for my 10 gallon batch and ended up with 9 gallons from about 12.75 in the kettle. I made an all citra partigyle also, but should have just added that into the kettle in hind site. I was in a rush to get to the homebrew christmas party and could have used a little more time though.

Some notes.

I maxed out capacity of my 10 gallon mash tun around 25 lbs 10 oz. Mashed for an hour at 150-148 then just added the extra grain to total 27 lbs (probably should not have bothered, but oh well). It fit in, but then threw off my temperatures. Total mash time was 90 minutes and I vorlaufed for 10 minutes before sparging. I don't have a pump system. I did add some 170 water to the top to increase the temps before the vorlauf.

Sparged with 170 degree water and ended up with about 12.75 gallons. I think I stopped the runnings at 1.020 and just filled up the mash tun with 170 water and let it sit for a while before draining for the partigyle. Probably still left some sugar behind, but ran out of sparge water. I never bother trying to calculate efficiencies but should at some point.

I was too rushed to spend much time trying to calculate water adjustments, but added 4g gypsum and 3.5g CACL to 7 gallons of mash water. I added 1/8 teaspoon of 88% lactic acid to the last 5 gallons of sparge water, but am not sure how much it helped or changed it. Aside from that, it was just tap water with campden added. I got my ph meter calibrated, but was too rushed to take many measurements.

I split my batch in half and had about 4 gallons and 5 gallons going into the carboys. Each half had 7 oz hops at flameout. The 4.5 gallons was mostly simcoe, centennial, comet, apollo and some el dorado, the other had a bunch of kinds. I split the 7 oz in half and mixed them up and threw in the first batch after boil, then the rest 20 minutes later for 45 minutes before turning on the wort chiller. The 4 gallons had a longer hopstand since I only had one chiller. I didn't check temperatures since i had too much to do on cleaning and getting ready to go out. All the hops and trub are in the carboys also.

I made a 3.8 liter gigayeast stepped starter for all three batches. I added some to the 2.5 gallon partigyle at 1.058, then split the rest between the others. I made a 2.25 l starter, decanted and added that to a 1.6 l starter, then decanted to about 400ml to pitch in my beer.

I used 20ml of hopshot for the 90 minute boil. I ordered the hopshot in October so I was not sure if it had any shelf life issues in my fridge for a month. I am wondering if I should have bumped it up, but its too late now.

There was some little black specs floating in the kettle, not sure if that was from the hop extract or sugar in the raw. They are floating on the krausen.

Used 24 lbs pearl, 1.5 lbs TF white wheat, 1.5 lbs caramalt, 1.5 lbs sugar in the raw. I got my grains and hopshot from farmhouse.

My OG was 1.093, but I think my hydrometer might be off and it could be higher.

My only concern at this point is if the bitterness is correct and how much volume the hops will suck up. Next time I won't try to mash as much grain in the cooler and will split it up for a beer this big. I am still in process on reading Water, and still have a lot to improve on that.

Pitched yeast yesterday and oxygenated around 60 degrees and they are now fermenting today. The chamber is set to 62 degrees.
 
brettwasbtd said:
Confirmed is a strong word for the content of that thread. Seemed like there was still a lot of question to how they actually do it. Only one way to find out...brew it and see :)
Click to expand...

The link shows a video from The Alchemist themselves. It clearly shows a portion of their brew sheet with 750 hardness. You can't get more definitive confirmation then that. Also see this image from one of their sheets (everything matches)

They also show that on the sheet that "liquor treatment" is 776 gallons. They brew on a 15 barrel system. There are 31 gallons per barrel which is 465 gallons. If they were not brewing and sparging with the same water, then they would not need so much treated liquor. Yup, definitely confirmed.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6237310&postcount=2435

image.jpeg
 
Trillium said:
The link shows a video from The Alchemist themselves. It clearly shows a portion of their brew sheet with 750 hardness. You can't get more definitive confirmation then that. Also see this image from one of their sheets (everything matches)

They also show that on the sheet that "liquor treatment" is 776 gallons. They brew on a 15 barrel system. There are 31 gallons per barrel which is 465 gallons. If they were not brewing and sparging with the same water, then they would not need so much treated liquor. Yup, definitely confirmed.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6237310&postcount=2435
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.

Speaking of water difference, has anyone ever wondered if he ices his beer? Large volume of wort to whirlpool and infuse flavors, smaller volume in keg to concentrate flavors
 
I don't think he freeze concentrates as that would be considered distilling and illegal, unless he did it before adding yeast?

Seems a little far fetched to me, but anything is possible.
 
Ice beers are pretty common. Even the big guys do it. I mention it, because I accidentally iced my IPA the other day and I thought that it tasted better than before
 
At Woodbridge we had a 750 Ft well that was blown out for 3 days to get rid of sand. It was very hard. They still use this today without extra processing. PH is a concern. :)
 
Trillium said:
The link shows a video from The Alchemist themselves. It clearly shows a portion of their brew sheet with 750 hardness. You can't get more definitive confirmation then that. Also see this image from one of their sheets (everything matches)

They also show that on the sheet that "liquor treatment" is 776 gallons. They brew on a 15 barrel system. There are 31 gallons per barrel which is 465 gallons. If they were not brewing and sparging with the same water, then they would not need so much treated liquor. Yup, definitely confirmed.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6237310&postcount=2435
Click to expand...
Thanks! I read that whole other thread but it seemed to fizzle out without any confirmation - just speculation. I now see from your post (which was earlier in this thread) the screenshot. Crazy that they use that much calcium sulfate
 
Trillium said:
The link shows a video from The Alchemist themselves. It clearly shows a portion of their brew sheet with 750 hardness. You can't get more definitive confirmation then that. Also see this image from one of their sheets (everything matches)
Click to expand...

I brewed an HT clone using the water profile as directed by the brew sheet you referenced, then compared lab results with those for the real thing. Data below, my clone values are listed 2nd:

pH - 4.3, 4.35
TDS - 1584, 1444
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64, 2.20
Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**, 31.5/19.3

ppm
Sodium, Na - 25, 35
Potassium, K - 802, 740
Calcium, Ca - 110, 87
Magnesium, Mg - 113, 82
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746, 553
Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6, 14
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156, 181
Chloride, Cl - 339, 282
Carbonate, CO3 - <1.0, < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - <1, < 1
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - <1, <1
Total Phosphorus, P - 278.10, 374
Total Iron, Fe - 0.37, < 0.1
 
roncruiser said:
Ran out of oxygen a few second into oxygenating the wort. This Heady Topper process turned out great except for the oxygen. I pitched the yeast anyway at 9pm. Home Depot's closed.

Can I oxygenate the worth first thing tomorrow morning? If so, for how long? Should I just leave it alone and let the yeast do their thing?

Home Depot opens at 7am. I'm buying two bottles this time!
Click to expand...

So, the feedback from friends and family for this beer has been great. I used the bobbrews recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6791071&postcount=2967

What's important in HT is the malt. The malt is the backbone of this beer. I don't know how you can even remotely come close to cloning Heady Topper without using Pearl as the base malt, but that's just my opinion. The front end aroma shines but not overbearing. Very smooth non-lingering bitterness at the end the back end. My attempt is certainly Heady-esque. It's certainly a damn good beer if anything else. Probably my best attempt at an IPA to date. Everything's there but some would argue. I say it's not exactly Heady Topper only because I haven't had a fresh can of Heady Topper in over a year, and I don't remember exactly how it tastes anymore. Though, overall, this attempt certainly reminds me of Heady Topper.

You have to get the water right though. You have to! It's a must. On my first two attempts (using Norther Brewer Kit Off the Topper) my water profiles were non-existent and I missed by a mile. It made for a good enough IPA but nothing like Heady Topper.

At least, with the bobbrews recipe, I'm not only in the ballpark, I'm rounding the bases headed home.

Good stuff.
 
roncruiser said:
So, the feedback from friends and family for this beer has been great. I used the bobbrews recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6791071&postcount=2967



You have to get the water right though. You have to! It's a must. On my first two attempts (using Norther Brewer Kit Off the Topper) my water profiles were non-existent and I missed by a mile. It made for a good enough IPA but nothing like Heady Topper.



Good stuff.
Click to expand...

So, what did you do for your water on the one you liked?

I am drinking a recent IPA I brewed. Not a heady clone at all really. However, I have a 4 pack of Heady in the fridge and drank one the other night...... My IPA is Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic. Now, I am not claiming that is what Heady uses..... but, this hop combo/this IPA reminds me more of Heady than any other combo I have used. It is missing some aspects..... Columbus/Centennial/Simcoe maybe..... but, the hopping tastes more similar than any of my actual Heady attempts. Might've to play around with a couple of these.... Galaxy for sure.
 
roncruiser said:
I went with this here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/2jftip/heady_topper_clone/

Read through that thread. The guy did his research and summarized what essentially is a good water profile to use. I brewed up a batch just last weekend using his water profile.

Now, his recipe is different than the one bobbrews outlines, but the water should be the common denominator for whatever HT recipe you choose to go with.

I'm gonna brew up another batch this weekend. This time ensuring I'm measuring out my CaCl2 correctly. You can find the details for that here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6527536#post6527536

I start with distilled water as a base and build my brewing water by adding salts to the pre-mash heat up.

Here are the water parameters he used:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=MN8X1YK
Keep in mind he's using Baking Soda in the boil kettle to bring up Na and residual alkalinity.

I took those water parameters and worked up a match using the Bru'n Water calculator. I went with a room temp. mash Ph of 5.2 on my last batch. This next batch, I'm going with 5.4.
Click to expand...

Braufessor said:
So, what did you do for your water on the one you liked?

I am drinking a recent IPA I brewed. Not a heady clone at all really. However, I have a 4 pack of Heady in the fridge and drank one the other night...... My IPA is Citra/Galaxy/Mosaic. Now, I am not claiming that is what Heady uses..... but, this hop combo/this IPA reminds me more of Heady than any other combo I have used. It is missing some aspects..... Columbus/Centennial/Simcoe maybe..... but, the hopping tastes more similar than any of my actual Heady attempts. Might've to play around with a couple of these.... Galaxy for sure.
Click to expand...

The water parameters I used are contained in the link above. I just used his and it worked well. No problems with it. Unless anyone has something better, I'd recommend everyone use it as a reference guide.

I agree, it could use some enhancement. I was thinking about using Citra to enhance the very front end of the taste profile. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there was Citra in the original dry hop combo. Just a small amount. Enough to enhance perception but not to overwhelm that very front end of the taste flavor/palate.
 
g-star said:
I brewed an HT clone using the water profile as directed by the brew sheet you referenced, then compared lab results with those for the real thing. Data below, my clone values are listed 2nd:



pH - 4.3, 4.35

TDS - 1584, 1444

Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64, 2.20

Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**, 31.5/19.3



ppm

Sodium, Na - 25, 35

Potassium, K - 802, 740

Calcium, Ca - 110, 87

Magnesium, Mg - 113, 82

Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746, 553

Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6, 14

Sulfate, SO4-S - 156, 181

Chloride, Cl - 339, 282

Carbonate, CO3 - <1.0, < 1

Bicarbonate, HCO3 - <1, < 1

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - <1, <1

Total Phosphorus, P - 278.10, 374

Total Iron, Fe - 0.37, < 0.1
Click to expand...


Curious which recipe you went with using this water profile. How'd it turn out for you?
 
gotbags-10 said:
Curious which recipe you went with using this water profile. How'd it turn out for you?
Click to expand...

I used a variation of the recipe on the first page, but the grain bill is still mostly the same through all clones I think. 90% Pearl, 2.5% Caramalt, 2.5% Wheat, 5% plain table sugar. Hops and schedule followed the general concept...one bittering addition at 60min with huge whirlpool additions. I was happy with how it turned out. Very close, but not "cloned".

With the differences in malt/hop crops and commercial vs. homebrewing setups, trying to clone this beer is like hitting a moving target.
 
g-star said:
I brewed an HT clone using the water profile as directed by the brew sheet you referenced, then compared lab results with those for the real thing. Data below, my clone values are listed 2nd:

pH - 4.3, 4.35
TDS - 1584, 1444
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64, 2.20
Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**, 31.5/19.3

ppm
Sodium, Na - 25, 35
Potassium, K - 802, 740
Calcium, Ca - 110, 87
Magnesium, Mg - 113, 82
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746, 553
Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6, 14
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156, 181
Chloride, Cl - 339, 282
Carbonate, CO3 - <1.0, < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - <1, < 1
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - <1, <1
Total Phosphorus, P - 278.10, 374
Total Iron, Fe - 0.37, < 0.1
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Except for total hardness, your numbers are not far off. Differences may be due to source water, ingredient differences, or process.
 
Feurhund said:
I don't think he freeze concentrates as that would be considered distilling and illegal, unless he did it before adding yeast?

Seems a little far fetched to me, but anything is possible.
Click to expand...


I believe there is a threshold that you can freeze beers and not have to have a distilling license. I remember something on an interview a couple years ago and they said they were very careful to not remove over a certain amount of ice from the beer. Not really sure who it was. I think it was probably on the Can You Brew It podcast though.
 
My Las Vegas water report is:
Calcium (Ca+2): 75ppm
Magnesium (Mg+2): 24ppm
Sulfates (SO4-2): 228ppm
Sodium (Na+): 88ppm
Chloride (Cl-): 92ppm
Bicarbonate / Alkalinity: 138ppm
Hardness Total: 285 ppm

What do I need, and how much of it, to bring hardness up to 750 mg/l?
 
Trillium said:
Very interesting. Except for total hardness, your numbers are not far off. Differences may be due to source water, ingredient differences, or process.
Click to expand...

I think the biggest difference in total hardness is that I ended up with lower magnesium levels. Mg has a larger influence in the hardness calculation, as it has an atomic weight almost half that of calcium.

I added no Mg salts, and my starting water has only about 5ppm to begin with, so obviously nearly all of the Mg in the final beer is from the malt. So I attribute it to difference in malt crop. I used Munton's Pearl, and I know it is widely believed that the Alchemist uses Fawcett.
 
I just finished listening to an interview of the late Greg Noonan on basic brewing radio from 2006. He mentioned that without the high hardness to support the bitterness and high dry hopping, the hops will taste soapy. ( I wondered why a few IPA's have that character) Greg said people blame the hops, but it's actually the water. He recommended 700 for IPA's. They added so much calcium sulphate at the brewpub that they had a hard time getting it dissolved.
 
g-star said:
I brewed an HT clone using the water profile as directed by the brew sheet you referenced, then compared lab results with those for the real thing. Data below, my clone values are listed 2nd:

pH - 4.3, 4.35
TDS - 1584, 1444
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 2.64, 2.20
Cations/Anions, me/L - 36.6/20.6**, 31.5/19.3

ppm
Sodium, Na - 25, 35
Potassium, K - 802, 740
Calcium, Ca - 110, 87
Magnesium, Mg - 113, 82
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 746, 553
Nitrate, NO3-N - 17.6, 14
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156, 181
Chloride, Cl - 339, 282
Carbonate, CO3 - <1.0, < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - <1, < 1
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - <1, <1
Total Phosphorus, P - 278.10, 374
Total Iron, Fe - 0.37, < 0.1
Click to expand...

How did the beer turn out? Have you brewed it with other water profiles? Also what were your exact mash numbers if you dont mind sharing. Did you go all the way to 750 sulfate? Sorry for all the questions. I made a beer with 300 sulfate a while back and it was quite astringent...could have been something else though.
 
Kegged my batch about 2 weeks ago and did the 2nd dry hop in the keg. I had it at room temp and on carb. Did that for 5 days. Racked to a serving keg via pressure. Tried it a few days ago. Almost zero hop aroma. WTH? Bitterness, dryness and mouthfeel seemed OK. Color was way off. Too dark. I used Maris Otter instead of Pearl because my HBS doesn't carry Pearl.

So should I try adding some hops to the serving keg to try to get some aroma? If so, what hops and how much?
 
globe said:
How did the beer turn out? Have you brewed it with other water profiles? Also what were your exact mash numbers if you dont mind sharing. Did you go all the way to 750 sulfate? Sorry for all the questions. I made a beer with 300 sulfate a while back and it was quite astringent...could have been something else though.
Click to expand...

I added 22g of gypsum to the mash which will achieve 750ppm hardness in the final beer once all of the Mg from the malt is accounted for (with my tap water, which is of relatively moderate hardness to begin with). Note you should NOT try to go for 750ppm SO4 OR hardness in your brewing liquor, as you will drive the RA and thus mash pH way too low. It would also be very difficult to dissolve that much CaSO4.

The beer came out very well, the sulfate-enhanced bittering character was evident. I have not brewed this exact beer with other water profiles, but othr hoppy beers with this type of approach (mostly base malt, big whirlpool additions) with other water profiles, and I honestly like a more balanced and overall lower levels of Cl-/SO4, but that just be my personal preference. YMMV.
 
TheHairyHop said:
granted, I haven't done any water adjustments with my brews, but I can't imagine it's the difference factor between clone attempts and the real deal.
Click to expand...

Trust me pH and hardness make a HUGE difference when it comes to IPAs. I use 20g of Gypsum and ~2% acidulated malt to hit a post mash pH of 5.4 at room temperature and hardness of 750ppm in the finished product. If your hardness and pH aren't right your clone won't be there.
 

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