Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[ianmatth]

They are pitching pretty low. That comes out to .44 million cells / ml / degree plato, which is less than 150 billions cells for a 5 gallon batch.

Degree plato has nothing to do with temperature. It's pretty much about the same as gravity.
8.5 deg P, 5.5 deg P, 3.0 deg P, 2.5 deg P is equivalent to 1.034, 1.022, 1.012, 1.010.
If you add those up it comes to 1.078 which is roughly the OG of Heady Topper, but I'm not sure what it means.

 

[bulldogbrewhaus]

Good people of HBT, I apologize if this has already been posted but I just couldn't commit to digging through 365 pages of posts. Some good info in this article not only from Kimmich but other great brewers as well. Great thread, hope this is helpful.

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

 

[davidst]

It'd be hard to read through 3000 posts, is the recipe on the first page still the best or is there a more preferred recipe?

 

[chato]

They are pitching pretty low. That comes out to .44 million cells / ml / degree plato, which is less than 150 billions cells for a 5 gallon batch.

Degree plato has nothing to do with temperature. It's pretty much about the same as gravity.
8.5 deg P, 5.5 deg P, 3.0 deg P, 2.5 deg P is equivalent to 1.034, 1.022, 1.012, 1.010.
If you add those up it comes to 1.078 which is roughly the OG of Heady Topper, but I'm not sure what it means.

I think that's just coincidence that those numbers add up to the OG. Those are the deg P you should be reading daily from your hydrometer test from day 1 to day 4. Fermentation should be complete at 1.010 on Day 4. And the key is to ramp up the temperature over those 4 days to achieve the deg P target for each day - I'd guess about a degree or less rise each day. I don't expect you'd want to go higher than 71 or 72 by day 4.

 

[ianmatth]

Okay, now I get it.

 

[ianmatth]

Doing an experiment where I pitch Conan the way the Alchemist does for Heady Topper: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575118

 

[robopp]

Thoughts on this video-

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqP0m0wWdM0[/ame]

Here are my thoughts - If the crew of HT is going to hop farm, I would assume that they're checking out hops they're going to use in HT. I haven't heard of anyone mention crystal being in heady topper, which is an aroma hop. This hop has been around forever too.

 

[brewski09]

Thoughts on this video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqP0m0wWdM0

Here are my thoughts - If the crew of HT is going to hop farm, I would assume that they're checking out hops they're going to use in HT. I haven't heard of anyone mention crystal being in heady topper, which is an aroma hop. This hop has been around forever too.

They are making other beers again. They had a large lineup before the brewpub was wiped out.

 

[davidst]

I'm sort of following the recipe on the first page and the smells coming from the primary are wonderful. Full of peach, citrus and pine notes, I can't wait to try it.

 

[rideincircles]

I just killed the kegs on my batch. It ended up scoring 33 points at bluebonnet, and was knocked for being low on the IBU's. It did get 3rd in my monthly homebrew contest for my homebrew club though.

I need to improve on the water chemistry next time, but I will also up the amount of hopshot I use from 20 to 28ml. Since i am just learning about water chemistry, this will definitely improve on my processes to make it better next time.

Also, I still have a 20ml syringe of hopshot, but was wondering if it breaks down or loses its potency over time. I have had it for a few months now in the fridge. Will probably just use it for an IPA or pale next.

 

[brewski09]

Also, I still have a 20ml syringe of hopshot, but was wondering if it breaks down or loses its potency over time. I have had it for a few months now in the fridge. Will probably just use it for an IPA or pale next.

I recently contacted a manufacturer and was told the half life is greater than 2 years and they don't know how long it will remain stable yet. You should be good, especially if it's in a sealed container and the fridge.

 

[mtnagel]

I recently contacted a manufacturer and was told the half life is greater than 2 years and they don't know how long it will remain stable yet. You should be good, especially if it's in a sealed container and the fridge.

Who told you that?

Anything I've ever seen on hop extracts are they are extremely stable when frozen. This document says 8 years though most I've seen said 5 years.

Also, I still have a 20ml syringe of hopshot, but was wondering if it breaks down or loses its potency over time. I have had it for a few months now in the fridge. Will probably just use it for an IPA or pale next.

I'd move it to the freezer as that will keep it fresh longer.

 

[grundlepunch]

Planning on brewing the current best clone on front page.
However I do not have hop shots nor simcoe hops.

Any input on using CTZ for bittering in place of hop shot and chinook in place of simcoe? I know it wont be as good of a clone, just thoughts on making a good beer.

Thanks!

 

[brewski09]

Planning on brewing the current best clone on front page.
However I do not have hop shots nor simcoe hops.

Any input on using CTZ for bittering in place of hop shot and chinook in place of simcoe? I know it wont be as good of a clone, just thoughts on making a good beer.

Thanks!

Tasty used CTZ in place of hopshot for a Lagunitas clone and said it worked on CYBI, he just said to make sure they aren't brown.

 

[brewski09]

Who told you that?



Anything I've ever seen on hop extracts are they are extremely stable when frozen. This document says 8 years though most I've seen said 5 years.



I'd move it to the freezer as that will keep it fresh longer.

Yakima valley hops

 

[Rush]

Morebeer just released a Heady Topper clone. No clue of accuracy.

https://www.morebeer.com/search?search="topped+with+hops"

 

[robopp]

I brewed the most recent recipe that uses comet. I think it's missing a lot of the fruit that I expect from Heady Topper. I don't think comet should replace Amarillo. Instead, I thin Cascade should replace Amarillo/Comet. I brewed the latest Pliny and the main hop is actually Cascade not Simcoe. It has a beautiful dank citrusy flavor that reminds me of Heady. I'll give this a go and report back.

 

[sweetcell]

I brewed the most recent recipe that uses comet. I think it's missing a lot of the fruit that I expect from Heady Topper. I don't think comet should replace Amarillo. Instead, I thin Cascade should replace Amarillo/Comet. I brewed the latest Pliny and the main hop is actually Cascade not Simcoe. It has a beautiful dank citrusy flavor that reminds me of Heady. I'll give this a go and report back.

FYI, MoreBeer's take on HT:

Estimated original gravity (OG): 1.073-78
Estimated SRM: 8
Estimated IBU’s: 105-110
Estimated alcohol ABV %: 8.1
Suggested fermentation temperature: 68
Recommended mash temperature is 148°F

13 lbs American Pale
12 oz White Wheat
0.5 lb Carastan
1 lb Candi Sugar (Boil)

2 oz. Magnum - Bittering Hops boiled for 90 minutes
1 oz. Each: Amarillo, Apollo, Centennial, Columbus - Aroma Hops are boiled for 5 minutes
1 oz. Each: Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial, Columbus - Aroma Hops added at flame out
1 oz. Each: Amarillo, Apollo, Centennial, Columbus, Simcoe - Dry Hops added to the fermenter for 3-5 days

 

[Trillium]

Your hop schedule looks pretty good, but your malts are not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 4oz per 5 gallons (probably 100% Simcoe)

Edit: clarified #5

 

[robopp]

Not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Carafa
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 1oz per gallon (probably 100% Simcoe)

Totally agree on the lack of Pearl malt in morebeer's recipe completely discounts them. Kimmich himself stated that Heady uses pearl as the base malt. How do you know they use Carafa (430L)? I thought it was widely accepted that they use TF Caramalt (10L)

 

[Trillium]

I actually can't remember. A while back there was a big discussion about this and one poster used different percentages until the color was just right. Kimmich himself said he uses his "favorite British Malts" so it makes sense he would just use Thomas Fawcett.

 

[robopp]

I actually can't remember. A while back there was a big discussion about this and one poster used different percentages until the color was just right. Kimmich himself said he uses his "favorite British Malts" so it makes sense he would just use Thomas Fawcett.

Thomas Fawcett makes the 10L Caramalt.

 

[GRBC]

Your hop schedule looks pretty good, but your malts are not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 1oz per gallon (probably 100% Simcoe)

But does it taste the same? Have you tried it? As we have seen, a home brewer doesn't have to use the exact same recipe/process/water/etc. to clone a commercial beer.

 

[Trillium]

But does it taste the same? Have you tried it? As we have seen, a home brewer doesn't have to use the exact same recipe/process/water/etc. to clone a commercial beer.

Sure you do, or it wouldn't be a clone.

 

[brewski09]

Every brew house will be a little different so you always have to adjust for your equipment and efficiencies.

 

[kaz4121]

Your hop schedule looks pretty good, but your malts are not even close.
Things we know
1) they use Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt
2) they use Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
3) they use dextrose
4) they brew with 750 hardness water.
5) they dry hop with about 1oz per gallon (probably 100% Simcoe)

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

 

[TheHairyHop]

sub

 

[davidst]

I made the recipe on the first page, it's a pretty good beer, but it's not as bitter as I'd prefer. I did warrior instead of the hopshot and I'm now wishing I would have done a hop with a sharper bitterness such as Columbus.

 

[droder1]

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

Well, BYO 20th anniversary issue (Sept 2015) also states in their Alchemist Moose Knuckle Clone that "the Alchemist's beers are brewed with very soft water. If you get a water report and find that your water has a solid mineral base you might consider diluting your mash or boil water with distilled water."

Well, as we can see from the actual, pictured brewsheet here for HT, that is clearly nonsense. While Kimmich could without lying say his water is soft (which it appears to be from the brewsheet), they do NOT brew with very soft water, at least not for HT. I imagine a 60 IBU pale ale he doesn't just go for 0 hardness.

So morale of the store here, BYO is not bible.

 

[ianmatth]

That's why you should buy the ingredients yourself instead of using a kit (with the exception of Farmhouse's kit since it is theveganbrewer's recipe on page 1) if you want to clone this beer. As long as your water is right, you pitch the right amount of yeast (0.44 is where it's at but going higher won't hurt - AND DON'T ASSUME YOU HAVE ENOUGH YEAST - crash your starter and use 1 ml of compacted yeast for every 4 billion cells you want,) you control temperature properly, and you dry hop big you will get a clone that is quite close to the real Heady Topper, slight variations in malts, hops, or late addition/whirlpool hops schedule will not make a huge difference.

 

[Trillium]

According to BYO #5 is false: "John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)."

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3187-advanced-dry-hopping-techniques

My bad, I forgot about that article. The recipe for The Alchemist Black IPA "El Jefe" in the IPA book, it says "Remove the yeast and dry hop with fresh Simcoe pellets at a ratio of 0.83 oz./ gal. (1.6 lb./bbl., 6.2 g/L)." That comes to 4.15 oz (118 g) for 5 gallons (19 L)

I'm convinced that Heady Topper dry hoping is very close to this, if not the same.

Edit: that comes to 25 lbs of hops for 15 barrels. They most likely just throw in two 11 pound bags of Simcoe, or 22 lbs total. I don't think a commercial brewery would measure out 3 lbs separately from a 11 Lb bag.

So that got me thinking.....I would bet money they throw in one 25 kg bag of cara malt for a 15 barrel batch.

 

[Trillium]

Ok, my brain is really spinning with ideas. Dextrose comes in 50 lbs bags, so they most likely throw in 2 or 3 bags for 15 barrel batch. The balance would be Pearl Malt.

Edit:
100 lbs, calculates to .216lb per gallon, or 1.08 lbs/5 gal.
150 lbs, calculates to .323lb per gallon, or 1.61lbs/5 gal.

Now we just need to calculate the amount of Pearl.

 

[Trillium]

I'm having a bit of difficulty reverse engineering the hop extract because it comes in 0.5 kg, 1kg, 2kg and 3 kg and 4kg tins. Not only mutiple sizes but it also comes in different hop varietie such as Cascade (aroma), Chinook (dual) and Columbus (bittering). And this is what's available from just Yakima Chief. I'm sure there are also other suppliers and other varieties available.

Another issue is the hop utilization on a 15 barrel system is much higher than a 5 gallon system. You would need to use more extract to get the same bitterness.

 

[kaz4121]

Well, BYO 20th anniversary issue (Sept 2015) also states in their Alchemist Moose Knuckle Clone that "the Alchemist's beers are brewed with very soft water. If you get a water report and find that your water has a solid mineral base you might consider diluting your mash or boil water with distilled water."

Well, as we can see from the actual, pictured brewsheet here for HT, that is clearly nonsense. While Kimmich could without lying say his water is soft (which it appears to be from the brewsheet), they do NOT brew with very soft water, at least not for HT. I imagine a 60 IBU pale ale he doesn't just go for 0 hardness.

So morale of the store here, BYO is not bible.

Agreed that BYO is not gospel but just trying to keep everyone honest before making declarative statements.

 

[Trillium]

I came up with the following assuming one (1) 25 kg bag cara malt and two(2) 50 lb bags of dextrose for 15 barrel batch. I then used a calculator to get to 1.076 gravity to determine Pearl amount with 75% efficiency.

For 5 gallons
12 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Pearl
.6 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
1lb of dextrose

If they use 150 Lbs of dextrose:
10.5 Lbs Pearl
.6 lbs Cara malt
1.6 Lbs Dextrose

 

[TheHairyHop]

Agreed that BYO is not gospel but just trying to keep everyone honest before making declarative statements.

yea, the part about less than an oz per gallon is questionable to me. especially considering that there was no reference

 

[chato]

I came up with the following assuming one (1) 25 kg bag cara malt and two(2) 50 lb bags of dextrose for 15 barrel batch. I then used a calculator to get to 1.076 gravity to determine Pearl amount with 75% efficiency.

For 5 gallons
12 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Pearl
.6 Lbs of Thomas Fawcett Cara Malt
1lb of dextrose

If they use 150 Lbs of dextrose:
10.5 Lbs Pearl
.6 lbs Cara malt
1.6 Lbs Dextrose

Your numbers look pretty good. I calculated percentages from an Alchemist brew sheet.

For a 6 gallon batch at OG 1.076 with 74% efficiency, I got these:

14 lbs Pearl (86%)
.65 lbs Caramalt (4%)
1.6 lbs Dextrose (10%)

They actually use 158 lbs Dextrose

 

[tjmac5071]

After over a one year delay I am finally brewing up a recipe along these lines - not trying for a clone, but anything in the vicinity would be a great addition to my kegerator which has never seen anything north of 6%.

I am stuck a bit on water profile - here is what I currently have planned, but I am not sure if this is right, the sulfate is much higher than anything I have previously gone with.

CA -172
MG - 1.4
NA - 16
SO4 - 331
CL - 82

This look okay - if not what is a better target?

 

[GRBC]

Sure you do, or it wouldn't be a clone.

I can understand why you feel that way, but I'm not in a position to buy a 15bbl brewhouse and clone it. Brewing a beer which cannot be distinguished from the real thing in a blind triangle test (which I have not done yet w/HT) is my definition of cloned. Even if mine was a 5 gallon batch using different ingredients, mashed in a cooler, boiled on a turkey fryer, fermented in a bucket, and packaged in a bottle. But that's just me. You do you & I'm OK with that. [emoji482]

 

[droder1]

Your numbers look pretty good. I calculated percentages from an Alchemist brew sheet.



For a 6 gallon batch at OG 1.076 with 74% efficiency, I got these:



14 lbs Pearl (86%)

.65 lbs Caramalt (4%)

1.6 lbs Dextrose (10%)



They actually use 158 lbs Dextrose

Oh you've got to give us more than that what else did you see on the sheet?? Hops...?