Kickstarter for SS Mash Tun, Kettle and Fermenter

Pics as promised...

Looking straight down into kettle - notice marks on bottom:



Pockmark I was talking about. Inside of upper part of kettle where the handle is welded on the outside:



Close up of one of those marks on the bottom:



Close up of one of the other marks on the bottom:



Close up of the marks on the bottom/side:



Close up of marks on the side:



Close up of bulkhead in question:



Better close up of the bulkhead:

GaBrewZoo said:

Is the drain on the outside lower than the bottom of the kettle? You have to have the liquid actually pulling, which means if you don't have a hose or something hanging lower on the outside of the kettle, it will just stop when pressure on both sides equalize.

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Ya know, I normally don't consider myself an idiot, but I certainly feel like one now. Of course you are right. In the most unscientific test ever, the kettle that drained every time had the hose, and the one that didn't drain, did not have the hose.

It's just one of those things you never think about. When I got the other kettle out, it had the barb and hose already attached, so I didn't bother to detach it.

Drains like a champ now. I used a street 90 and then one of the nipples from Chapman since I figured that wouldn't be good for much else. That extends the reach of the street 90 down to about 1/4" off the bottom of the kettle.

Still not sure what to make of all those marks/discoloration on the inside that suddenly showed up though.

lol simple oversight.. no worries.. I thought about that, but figured.. nah.

I'd be sending those pictures to Chapman though.. of the pit and the discoloration. It shouldn't be doing that at all.. especially not so soon. after months of hard use....... maybe.

Yeah, I just emailed Steve and asked him to take a look. Stay tuned!

Wow...those are some pretty alarming pics!

That's the "high quality" Chinese stainless steel...

Well, like I said, I let Steve know about it via email and directed him to my photos here. When he responds I'll let you know what he has to say about it, or he might post here himself.

Honestly I'm kinda surprised if it's a widespread problem that I'm the first to report it here. If you have a kettle and haven't used it or washed it yet, you might want to do that and see what happens.

I know a couple of people have used their Thermobarrels and haven't posted anything like this.

I guess we'll see.

I haven't use used my barrel yet. Won't use it until Thursday. I will report back when I do. I did drill and modify it to fit a blichmann auto sparge

Using my steel bucket currently to ferment my oktoberfest.

Working great, no issues so far.

drgonzo2k2 said:

Also, I was really surprised to see some sort of discoloration around the bulkhead and in a few places on the inside of the kettle, along with what appears to be a small rust spot on the bottom of my kettle this morning. It was upside down drip drying overnight, and that's what I discovered when I flipped it over this morning.

The only thing I've done with this kettle so far is wash it with PBW and a soft wash cloth one time and let water sit in it once for about an hour, and then for 4 hours as a water test yesterday.

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I just wrote drgonzo2k2 an email offering to replace the kettle, but these pictures are unsettling. The equipment wasn't pickled or passivated and is therefore leaving these rust/oxidation/discoloration spots.

I was expecting that there might be one or two issues with equipment that wasn't passivated 100%, but this wasn't even touched. The manufacturer dips the equipment in an acid wash after all the welds and polishing is done. Often cheap manufacturers will skip this part, as it's hard to tell without extensive testing. But I've talked to our manufacturer about it several times, as this is something I was worried about. I've already sent them an email with these pictures, and I'm hoping to get some sort of explanation.

As you were saying before, it would be strange if this was a problem everyone was having and this is the first anyone mentioned it. If this is an isolated incident then we will just exchange the piece for one that has been passivated. If other people start having this problem... well, let's just hope no one else has this problem.

Just clean the area with bar keeper's friend and it will fix it.

Just wanted to verify that what Steve said is correct. He contacted me late last night and offered to switch out the kettle no questions asked, and with no charges to me.

I don't think you could ask for more than that in a situation like this, so provided the new one doesn't have any issues, I'd say consider me a happy camper at this point.

As usual he has shown great customer service, and I will definitely keep that in mind in the future. I will definitely be keeping a close eye on my Chapman gear as it goes into use to spot any future issues quickly.

Again, this seems to be an isolated incident, so if you're sitting on gear that you haven't used yet, you really should check it out to make sure it stays that way!

Bobby_M said:

Just clean the area with bar keeper's friend and it will fix it.

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Hey Bobby - just want to understand your comment. Are you saying as long as we remove the rust with bar keeper's friend, this will keep the rust from marking the pot? And will the issue Steve mentioned always be an issue using the kettle over its life?

oops

I was wondering why mine hadn't shipped yet. I'll wait if it means everything is fixed.

This definitely keeps me on the sidelines for a new MLT from Chapman or any other SS equipment made in China.
It seems to be a recurring theme that the Chinese manufacturers are taking/making shortcuts (often unknown to the U.S. customer) by using subpar SS & less than satisfactory welds & finishing.

govner1 said:

This definitely keeps me on the siones for a new MLT from Chapman or any other SS equipment made in China.
It seems to be a recurring theme that the Chinese manufacturers are taking/making shortcuts (often unknown to the U.S. customer) by using subpar SS & less than satisfactory welds & finishing.

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Everybody loses some quality assurance when they outsource manufacturing regardless of where. Very little is not manufactured in China.

Please do not throw stones at Chapman if you do not have skin in the game. The shot at the SS is just a cheap one, raise your game.

I have a ThermoBarrel and a Steel Barrel, both have pros and cons but I cannot cast muck on their first production run. Both are shiny and the finish are much better than I have expected.

Every flaw that they have found they have identified and offered to correct on their dime. Chapman is doing a better job of taking care of their customers over products that cost hundreds and not thousands of dollars, which could not be said for the car companies that are delivering products manufactured from foreign made parts and only owning the problem when they get caught.

If I needed anything else, I would consider getting it from Chapman. I have a old style megapot and I have gotten upgraded pots from Bru-Gear and Colorado Brewing, but I probably won't get more from either. This is just my personal preference but for Bru-Gear both the herms coil and the element location on the E-Kettle is not my favorite but the pots are great. Colorado Brewing is awesome and their customization is first rate but I am not a fan of their base pots.

Cheers!

-Timur

.

govner1 said:

This definitely keeps me on the sidelines for a new MLT from Chapman or any other SS equipment made in China.
It seems to be a recurring theme that the Chinese manufacturers are taking/making shortcuts (often unknown to the U.S. customer) by using subpar SS & less than satisfactory welds & finishing.

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I think @govner1 makes very fair comments.

They manufacture 3 products. Design and/or manufacturing problems are noted in all three. Significant flaws in my mind.

Volume markings off in the FV.
Dip tube with no seal
Incorrect threads
Non passivated steel
Bad packaging.

Not buying nor having bought one does not disqualify his legitimate concerns.

Sure Chapman are rectifying things as best they can on their dime. Hopefully for the buyers' sake they have sufficiently deep pockets.

As I previously mentioned the inaccurate volume markings on the FV were enough for me to cancel my order of two. Inaccurate volume marks is not acceptable in a stainless steel tool. At least not for me.

Kudos to chapman. A full refund through the kick starter was issued after a couple of emails. No problems on that end whatsoever. Very good customer service.

To each their own. Some are happy to accept the flaws and do their own work arounds. I'm not in that camp.

At this point I'm still a Chapman supporter; however, the devil will be in the details when I get my new kettle and when I put my Thermobarrel into use, which will hopefully be soon.

These things were a steal at the Kickstarter price, and I hope it remains that way, and doesn't turn into "you get what you pay for."

I think the incorrect volume markings ended up being a design flaw, and not a manufacturing flaw. If I remember correctly I think they said they ended up changing the taper of the vessel and forgot to correct the volume markings for the new shape. Seems like that's something easy to correct in V2, but sucks for V1. Again, I sold mine when I got it, but that was more because it was just too small for me and didn't work in my setup than I was upset about the markings. I totally understand if that was a deal breaker for some though, and can't blame you.

If the problems with the kettle I experienced are wide spread, no one else has chimed in here to say "me too," but that doesn't mean it's not the case. Not sure what the intersection of Chapman customers with HBTers that participate in this thread are. They could have several email complaints that would be unknown to us; however, Chapman has owned up to everything else, so not owning up here would seem out of character.

They definitely are doing what it takes to make things right as issues arise, and service after the sale goes a long way towards making me a happy customer.

decoleur said:

Everybody loses some quality assurance when they outsource manufacturing regardless of where. Very little is not manufactured in China.

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Good point. I agree.

decoleur said:

Please do not throw stones at Chapman if you do not have skin in the game. The shot at the SS is just a cheap one, raise your game.

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I don't think his purchase or non-purchase is relevant to his concerns. I don't think he was necessarily throwing stones at Chapman; I think he has some legitimate concerns about the product. The unpassivated SS is a major concern, not a "cheap shot", in my opinion.

decoleur said:

I have a ThermoBarrel and a Steel Barrel, both have pros and cons but I cannot cast muck on their first production run. Both are shiny and the finish are much better than I have expected.

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I understand that it's their first production run, but there seem to be some serious concerns with the design and manufacturing quality of these products. Most of us are more worried about that instead of whether or not they are shiny.

decoleur said:

Every flaw that they have found they have identified and offered to correct on their dime. Chapman is doing a better job of taking care of their customers over products that cost hundreds and not thousands of dollars, which could not be said for the car companies that are delivering products manufactured from foreign made parts and only owning the problem when they get caught.

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I agree here. Chapman has been absolutely great about offering to replace/refund defective products. I'm not sold on the products yet, but I am sold on Chapman's customer service.

I was under the belief that the whole point of a Kickstarter was to get everything off the ground. What manufacturer has gotten perfect equipment on a first production run. That's why you get a good deal. So they can see what they need to fine tune. Now if your equipment is not functional that's a whole other problem. But a dent or volume marks are minor imo.

douglasbarbin said:

I don't think his purchase or non-purchase is relevant to his concerns. I don't think he was necessarily throwing stones at Chapman; I think he has some legitimate concerns about the product. The unpassivated SS is a major concern, not a "cheap shot", in my opinion.

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I agree unpassivated SS is a real concern, I thought this was rehashing 201 vs. 304. I have two products from Chapman and I am pretty sure mine were passivated. If the one example kettle wasn't passivated don't you think that the rust sports would have been more prevalent? This could be a manufacturing process problem but I did not see it as a total product failure. So painting the flaws with such broad strokes seemed a bit heavy handed to me and prompted my response.

Cheers!

decoleur said:

If the one example kettle wasn't passivated don't you think that the rust sports would have been more prevalent?

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Not on a kettle this new. He said that all he did with the kettle "is wash it with PBW and a soft wash cloth one time and let water sit in it once for about an hour, and then for 4 hours as a water test". Presumably the pictures are from the next few days. That really isn't enough time for any serious rust to start building up. The fact that there is any rusting/pitting at all is very discomforting to me.

Let me say first that I purchased both a 15 gal MT and a 15 gal BK through the kickstarter program. I'm yet to use either due to my work schedule.

My perception of the kickstarter program was to help launch Steve's business and at the same time receive standard to above standard quality equipment. Although I received a discount on the products, I was hoping the equipment would be more plug and play without me having to worry about the design, quality and adaptability of the equipment.

I intend to use the Chapman equipment for maybe 2 batches a month so I'm not too concerned about the issues raised so far. I do think Steve is a stand up guy and is doing his best to make things right. And I truly wish his company can compete against the other manufacturers on quality and price in the long run because this will result in better innovative and higher quality products for us all.

douglasbarbin said:

Not on a kettle this new. He said that all he did with the kettle "is wash it with PBW and a soft wash cloth one time and let water sit in it once for about an hour, and then for 4 hours as a water test". Presumably the pictures are from the next few days. That really isn't enough time for any serious rust to start building up. The fact that there is any rusting/pitting at all is very discomforting to me.

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Yes, confirming that is in fact all I did with this kettle. Those spots were present the next morning after the water test. I've actually not looked to see if it's got any worse, but I will check tonight.

To be clear, I actually mentioned to Steve via email that I thought somehow the manufacturer may have "covered up" these spots and the pockmark from welding, and my PBW/water test washed away whatever they uses.

This is just my theory, but I noticed that the area around several of them is highly polished, more so than any other parts of the kettles, and I don't see how I would have missed that pockmark during my initial inspection.

Well, gang, at this point I have to say I'm sorry, but I have given up on Chapman products.

This past Monday I received my replacement kettle for the one that had the rust issues (see above), and after doing a water test in this new one, it actually has worse rust and defects than the other one.

Here are some pictures.

This is the inside of the kettle, back, where the handle is welded on:



Sorry for the blurry image, but daylight was getting short. This is three large rust spots near the bottom rear of the kettle:



This is not rust, but another pockmark on the inside front of the kettle where the handle is welded on:



Both of the welded on couplings have these types of strange marks, and this weld is pretty discolored (called this out to Steve prior to starting the water test):



I am also having serious problems with the coupling for the ball valve. Despite my best efforts last night I could not get it to seal (and let me tell you, I torqued the hell out of it), and leaving it over night it had lost 1/2 gallon of water. I also had a hell of a time getting anything to screw in to the inside portion of the coupling. Anything I tried would go about a 1/4 turn, get all cockeyed, and then lockup. Just hand tightening a NPT nipple got it stuck so bad I had to use channel locks to unstick it. I tried two different street 90s, and after hitting one with a hammer a couple of times I got it to thread in, but again it would only go about 1/4 turn before locking up. Luckily that 1/4 turn just happened to be the right position so I lucked out there.

When I initially contacted Steve about the leaking he suggested I try it again using more Teflon tape. That's when I went out to drain the kettle, and found the defects inside. I went ahead and wrapped a mile of Teflon tape around it, but again, within about 30 minutes it started leaking again.

I've reached back out to Steve and requested a refund. Again, I've got nothing but positive remarks to say about his customer service, but his products are definitely lacking in quality. As I told him, even at the Kickstarter prices, a rusty kettle is pretty worthless.

Again, just to be perfectly clear, the only thing I've done with this new kettle was let water sit in it for about 24 hours.

I'm keeping the Thermobarrel as I've already modified it, and I sold off the fermenter as soon as it arrived, so now I'm in the market for a new kettle.

drgonzo2k2 said:

..thorough and fair with great pics

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Thanks for taking the time to put this together and being so detailed in your review. Very useful to future potential buyers. Very nice job!

That is pretty damning evidence and is fairly demonstrative of the design and quality control inadequacies evident throughout.

Yeah, you know I actually felt kinda bad posting the pics here as Steve genuinely seems like such a nice guy (our email exchange is about 30 replies at this point). I just think maybe his manufacturer took advantage of him here and he's stuck with the end product.

I have no doubt that he'll make good on his offer for a refund.

I'm still slightly puzzled though as he says no one else has reported this while after 2 kettles I've had a 100% defect rate. While not statistically impossible, it is highly improbable.

Right now I'm looking at kettles from Brew International and SS Brewtech, but an open for other suggestions!

I basically want a kettle more or less like the Chapman without the issues.

drgonzo2k2 said:

Yeah, you know I actually felt kinda bad posting the pics here as Steve genuinely seems like such a nice guy (our email exchange is about 30 replies at this point). I just think maybe his manufacturer took advantage of him here and he's stuck with the end product.

I have no doubt that he'll make good on his offer for a refund.

I'm still slightly puzzled though as he says no one else has reported this while after 2 kettles I've had a 100% defect rate. While not statistically impossible, it is highly improbable.

Right now I'm looking at kettles from Brew International and SS Brewtech, but an open for other suggestions!

I basically want a kettle more or less like the Chapman within the issues.

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Reading your posts throughout the thread you have been entirely balanced and fair in your assessment. I too would have no doubt that you will get a full refund as promised. I had no problems getting mine through kickstarter and Chapman.

I agree, statistically highly improbable if not impossible.

Again. Very thorough and fair. Hat's off.

****, maybe I won't be buying one of their fermenters after all....

I get home next week.. Plan on brewing something a few weeks after that.. so hopefully within the next month I'll have something in one of the fermenters as well as a use of the thermo barrel. and will let you guys know, if someone doesn't beat me to it.

Update. So I've heard back from Chapman this morning and am working with him on the logistics for the return/refund. Again, seems like a stand up guy, I just got two bad pieces of gear in a row from him. Could just be terrible luck or a sign of a more widespread issue.

After researching kettles for a day or so I finally settled on the Blichman G2 10 gallon kettle. I'm going to swap out that custom valve for a standard 3-piece ball valve, and I should be all set.

I wound up comparing kettles from Colorado Brewing, Spike, Morebeer's BrewBuilt, and SS Brewing in addition to the Blichman.

After comparing everything, the Blichman, while definitely the most expensive, just really seemed to be a quality piece of gear, one that will last forever, and should I decide to move to larger batches in the future, I could use it as my HLT, sell my current HLT & MLT, and at that point I'd go with the SS Brewtech MLT and another Blichman for the BK (both larger than the ones I have now).

The BrewBuilt and SS Brewing were both tied for 2nd place. They seem very similar, while the BrewBuilt is $25 more.

Last weekend, I brewed a pumpkin ale using my new 15 gallon Chapman boil kettle. The kettle seemed to perform nicely. However, when cleaning the kettle, I noticed one side of the inside of the pot showed a lot of metal discoloration / metal fatigue. I didn't notice an unbalance flame with my burner and the wind was blowing only mildly. So I'm not quite sure what happened. I've not seen this much metal discoloration in my other pots.

Given the issues that some are having, I thought I'd show a possible new issue with the metal in the pot.

I received my fermenter last week. Installed the bulkhead and valve. Hit it with pbw, rinse, and sanitized. Seal was good, ten gallons of brown ale in there. Shortly after that a package showed up with the updated bulkhead. I had assumed the updated equipment shipped with the kettle. It's working well and now I have some spare parts. One of the latches for the lid was a little wonky, but seals up fine.

For the price I paid, it's a deal. I'd buy a few more at that price given the opportunity. Retail price maybe not.

chewse said:

Last weekend, I brewed a pumpkin ale using my new 15 gallon Chapman boil kettle. The kettle seemed to perform nicely. However, when cleaning the kettle, I noticed one side of the inside of the pot showed a lot of metal discoloration / metal fatigue. I didn't notice an unbalance flame with my burner and the wind was blowing only mildly. So I'm not quite sure what happened. I've not seen this much metal discoloration in my other pots.

Given the issues that some are having, I thought I'd show a possible new issue with the metal in the pot.

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Oh no, that looks pretty bad! Have you been in contact with Chapman?

drgonzo2k2 said:

Oh no, that looks pretty bad! Have you been in contact with Chapman?

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Not yet..not sure if this is a breakdown in the metal or cosmetic.

I probably missed some posts but have you guys tried scrubbing these with BKF? Maybe the passivization was skipped in the factory and that is all it would take to fix these up. I've seen a few spots on my keggles that disappear with a little scrub.

This is exactly why I don't like cutting corners to save a couple bucks...

lschiavo said:

I probably missed some posts but have you guys tried scrubbing these with BKF? Maybe the passivization was skipped in the factory and that is all it would take to fix these up. I've seen a few spots on my keggles that disappear with a little scrub.

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This is exactly my plan before I use the equipment I got.
FYI: I found some BKF at Ace Hardware after a lot of searching at Walmart.

Does anyone have any tips on how to use it correctly to repassivate the metal before use just in case it wasn't done in the first place?